Israel-Gaza war

[Coldstream]

The last act of Hamas.

[Coldstream]

Netanyahu is the Scorpion and Gantz is the frog. Cannot believe he’d trust him under any circumstances.

[Coldstream]

US trying to broker deals to prevent conflict from spreading:

"The discussions between Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict are “helpful,” a senior State Department official said Wednesday.

The United States has been asking key allies to talk to Israel’s adversaries to prevent the war with Hamas from escalating into a larger regional conflict."

...

"The discussion between Raisi and Mohammed was the first call between the two leaders since their countries, which are longtime adversaries, resumed ties after a China-brokered détente in March."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-war-updates-gaza-attack/

I would also hope that the US manages to broker the deal for Egypt to allow Palestinian civilians in Gaza to flee the area in a civilian corridor, at least temporarily for the war, although up until now that deal has been rejected by Egypt;

https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-discussing-plans-provide-aid-gaza-under-limited-ceasefire-security-sources-2023-10-11/

Egypt knows if that happened Israel won’t let them come back, so they won’t do it.

[Coldstream]

US trying to broker deals to prevent conflict from spreading:

"The discussions between Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict are “helpful,” a senior State Department official said Wednesday.

The United States has been asking key allies to talk to Israel’s adversaries to prevent the war with Hamas from escalating into a larger regional conflict."

...

"The discussion between Raisi and Mohammed was the first call between the two leaders since their countries, which are longtime adversaries, resumed ties after a China-brokered détente in March."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-war-updates-gaza-attack/

I would also hope that the US manages to broker the deal for Egypt to allow Palestinian civilians in Gaza to flee the area in a civilian corridor, at least temporarily for the war, although up until now that deal has been rejected by Egypt;

https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-discussing-plans-provide-aid-gaza-under-limited-ceasefire-security-sources-2023-10-11/

Egypt knows if that happened Israel won’t let them come back, so they won’t do it.

Hypothetically, the deal could be made to ensure that it's a temporary arrangement, but idk if each side trusts the other enough to implement that now.

Also, I am not sure if Israel can really decide whether or not someone is allowed to enter via the Rafah Crossing, which is controlled by Egypt.

I mean, they can if Gaza is under Israeli occupation again.

[Coldstream]

https://twitter.com/Tom_Winter/status/1712944821701111875

Genuine question: obviously Hamas have always been a genocidal totalitarian terror cult, but were they always this bad or did the events of last weekend surprise even by their standards?

Basically no, that's why last weekend was so shocking.

A simplification as these things always are - but one analogy I have seen is that they roughly started out as Sinn Fain in the pre-NI ceasefire days, but have now become close to ISIS.

Seems more than a little unfair on the IRA, they never saw it as a holy war against all Protestants everywhere. They never included religious texts advocating killing Protestants everywhere in their foundation document. Last week was simply Hamas putting their thoughts & writings in to action.

[Coldstream]

I think the brutal truth is that the Egyptian government would rather the Israelis kill them (directly or indirectly) than have to look after 2 million refugees.

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Plus almost all European far-right parties who fearmonger about (((Soros))) while also aligning with the Israeli far-right.

Tbf, the picture is a bit more complicated here. A lot of them are sympathetic to Assad (part of their anti-refugee schtick) and a few of the fringe even fought in his Baathist militias. I think at least some of these folks are anti-Israel.

Konfederacja, in Poland, puts some distance between itself and PiS by accusing the latter of not standing up to Israel enough on the matter of WW2 reparations.

There may some differences depending on whether a party is classified as "hard right" or "far right," but there's not enough clarity here for my liking.

A couple of neo-Nazi party’s like Assad, but the average far right person in Europe nowadays like Israel.

Partly reactionary (left hates Israel therefore we like Israel), partly an admiration of perceived ethnocentrism, and I’m sure part of it is that it keeps the Jews out of Eastern Europe.

Although it’s worth noting that even Golden Dawn voted to strengthen security ties with Israel in the European Parliament. There are very few parties even on the far right that hate Jews more than Muslims nowadays. Or at least, prioritise hating Jews over Muslims.

[Coldstream]

Video from 2021 to illustrate some of the things Palestinians always had to endure and yet it never was worth getting the “Western outrage” like they give it to Ukraine:

https://twitter.com/theramrum/status/1712494445650694487
~Invading someone else’s land to take it for you is evil and wrong and opens a dangerous precedent where this kind of stuff is validated as fair game!~

Depends on the color of your skin and religion, apparently.

Out of curiosity - do you actually care about the people of Palestine? Or indeed…anywhere?

Or is this just a gotcha game to you? “hehehe look how smart I am to point out the hypocrisy of you western fools”.

[Coldstream]

It's certainly a disgrace. We (the western world and its liberal values) will pay a high price for it

https://twitter.com/mattduss/status/1713210261996462512?t=bM7yVJGecfofH5zcd3hd5w...

No one with a brain buys the ~west cares about the liberal order~ propaganda discourse outside the West.

The West has propelled dictatorships and genocide when it saw that as aligned to their material self-interests. They use liberalism and democracy as an instrument only, not as a goal, especially in foreign countries.

If a democracy starts going against their interests on any matter, they will promote regime change undercover and more discreetly. If an autocracy starts doing that, then they will be more open about it and justify it as fighting terrorism or dictatorship in name of liberal values.

However, if a democracy or an autocracy aligns with their interests, they will treat as “liberal allies” no matter the horrors they may commit when they happen to be a dictatorship.

I don't buy most of your arguments, but no doubt that most of the folks attacking you without caring to address the fundamental question stressed above are, in fact, validating you

I know they are, whenever people get too aggressive over politics arguments is either because you have offended them on some level (like supporting homophobia to a gay person will naturally entitle such a response) OR because you made a good valid point they don’t know how to respond to but feel threatened because it goes against their established beliefs.

Since I am always respectful bringing up my opinions, I know it’s the latter.

Aside from a solipsist obsession with the idea that everyone else is a hypocrite, you don’t have any opinions.

[Coldstream]

If Bibi and his assorted gang of bastards wants to get rid of the Palestinian inhabitants of Gaza for their genocidal vision of a "Second Nakba," then fine, by all means try it. But when the Gazans fire back in return, don't come crying and bitching to the collective West when the bodybags of IDF soldiers keeps rolling in.

I really don’t think Israel is afraid of Hamas’s ability to conduct a conventional war. They may be very dangerous when dealing with children & festival goers, less so when facing a professional army.

There’s lots of reasons to discourage Israel, fearing retaliation isn’t one of them.

[Coldstream]

If Bibi and his assorted gang of bastards wants to get rid of the Palestinian inhabitants of Gaza for their genocidal vision of a "Second Nakba," then fine, by all means try it. But when the Gazans fire back in return, don't come crying and bitching to the collective West when the bodybags of IDF soldiers keeps rolling in.

I really don’t think Israel is afraid of Hamas’s ability to conduct a conventional war. They may be very dangerous when dealing with children & festival goers, less so when facing a professional army.

There’s lots of reasons to discourage Israel, fearing retaliation isn’t one of them.

OP was very crass, but I think you underestimate how damaging an assymetrocal urban warfare could be for the land forces of the IDF. They are for sure one of the top forces in the world but there's a reason they disengaged from Gaza in the first place. Urban warfare is already a night mare in a normal city, then you add the underground highly dense city of Gaza to the equation. Israel has no real "good" options. Ideally it would pursue a further deepening of diplomacy to ensure Gulf states join them in cracking down on the Hamas leadership in exchange for a commitment to 2 state solution and softening the settler policy. With Ben Gvir and Smotritch still in government this ain't happening.

It’s not going to be as easy as a pitched battle sure, but the IDF aren’t exactly going to be showing any restraint this time. I’d be surprised if they actually committed ground forces without first levelling good chunks of Gaza city to reduce some of the issues they’ve faced in the past.

[Coldstream]

The Ukrainians were far better armed than Hamas will be, but Russia flattened Mariupol all the same. The only difference is civilians in Mariupol had somewhere to run.

[Coldstream]

I’d be wary of reading too much in to Hamas’s popularity now, rally round the flag effect + Gazan civilians may feel like Hamas are all that stands between them and the IDF’s iron fist. If - somehow - this ends with Hamas remaining in power, fairly quickly people will revert to despising them.

[Coldstream]

“I’m not an anti-Semite I just think we were too hard on the Nazis and Israel are doing the same thing”

[Coldstream]

You can make plenty of moral high ground arguments about how Israel isn’t winning (if you care).

You can argue Israel is losing the propaganda ward (probably true, as much as it matters)

You can plausibly claim Israel’s actions will make it worse for them in the long run (I’d probably disagree, but it’s not impossible a more competent version of Hamas emerge or that there is some meaningful international fall out).

You cannot seriously claim Israel is losing the war militarily. Half of Gaza is occupied, the other half is in ruins. Hamas are on the run, either in exile or cowering in some tunnels.

It’s just cope at this point.

[Coldstream]

You can make plenty of moral high ground arguments about how Israel isn’t winning (if you care).

You can argue Israel is losing the propaganda ward (probably true, as much as it matters)

You can plausibly claim Israel’s actions will make it worse for them in the long run (I’d probably disagree, but it’s not impossible a more competent version of Hamas emerge or that there is some meaningful international fall out).

You cannot seriously claim Israel is losing the war militarily. Half of Gaza is occupied, the other half is in ruins. Hamas are on the run, either in exile or cowering in some tunnels.

It’s just cope at this point.

It's clear that the people who are claiming that I am antisemitic don't actually read my comments because they keep pointing out things that I've already addressed.

Let's stop beating around the bushes and say the obvious:

Hamas has won!

Hamas knows that it can't beat Israel militarily, so it baited Israel into committing genocide for the entire world to see.

Israel is now more isolated than ever and every terrorist killed will be replaced with 10 new ones.

I don’t know or particularly care if you’re an anti-Semite, but if I spent as much time as you do attacking anyone people might reasonably question my motives.

[Coldstream]

Do you just ever like...acknowledge the 50+ years of occupation, colonization, and economic repression of Palestine or do you just not care?

You can acknowledge it and still utterly condemn the actions of Hamas.

Unfortunately, most people on here seem unable to do blame Israel for anything.

It’s the inevitable reaction of anti-Israel hysteria. When Israel gets blamed for everything, consistently, for years on end. Even when Hamas attacks, rapes and murders civilians, people find a way to say the Israelis deserved it, eventually some people are just going to dismiss all criticism of Israel as bad faith.

Personally I think this is an argument people get the wrong way round: legitimate criticism of Israel is dismissed as anti-semitism *because* there’s usually so much bad faith anti-Semitic criticism that people just disregard it. Rather than pro-Israel people actively pretending something is anti-Semitic.

The Palestinians are the ones who suffer every time people lie about Israel, because it makes it easier for Israeli hardliners to look justified/reasonable etc