Israel-Gaza war

[PSOL]

I have 0 expertise on this but it looks like a final suicide act from the Hamas right? There is no way they will be able to survive this.

What do the experts think of that?

The more I think about it, I think this was meant to be a suicide action to get rid of some troublemakers and this success wasn’t planned. Something like the usual action which results in Israel firing back. But they accidental succeeded and now they’re like the dog who chased the car and got its teeth into it… while it’s still driving.

The war was to take advantage of most of the Israeli army is coddling settlers in the West Bank and take advantage of the media blitz. Palestine has already won regardless of if Israel takes back all the territory to the fence.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

A ceasefire and multilateral disengagement between Palestine and Israel occupying territory of both as decided by the 1967 agreement is in order. No one benefited from the occupation in the West Bank by Settlers and Palestinian occupation of South Israel is no just way to this. It’s time to recognize and enforce the actual borders and get back to talks of peace.

Thank you, PSOL, for your wise and levelheaded take on a deeply controversial geopolitical issue. I mean it.

[The Mikado]

I have 0 expertise on this but it looks like a final suicide act from the Hamas right? There is no way they will be able to survive this.

What do the experts think of that?

I'm not an expert, but first things first, what Hamas have to lose?

And the second thing, Palestinians alone don't stand any chance to achieve something vs Israel. Their hope is to enlarge the conflict to other nations. This seems highly unlikely but narrative will change when Israel starts ground operation and Palestinian humanitarian disaster is gonna be put upfront. Or maybe some nations decide to play Turkey's role in Syria and thousands of fighters join the fight. Given what we've seen from Israel today, outside of air superiority, they don't seem so good any more.

Remember, this is happening in the context of deep, deep division between Israeli civil society and educated professionals, including the officer corps of the IDF, and the Netanyahu regime. A decent chunk of the reservists were basically on strike and protesting the government every day. All that sort of stuff is over, for better or worse.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1710730202353934338?t=vihXEXxD3-r8Z5YP64Sv7A&...

[PSOL]

I should also mention the propaganda aspect of this, this is the most successful attack by Arab forces since 1973 and by Palestinians since 1948. Israeli military supremacy and external stability has been shattered as Palestinians are at their most united state since the last Intifada, even the DFLP who hasn’t attacked Israel in two decades has given up on negotiations without teeth.

The over-reliance on the IAF and degradation of the wider IDF as the prior secular military has all but been marginalized for Likudniks has been proven relevant. Israel has been exposed as a state that cannot fight a two front war anymore.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Lebanese news An-Nahar: Egypt has informed Israel that if they launch a ground assault on Gaza then Hezbollah joins on the side of Hamas

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1710654061618372659?s=20

[Red Velvet]

A huge amount of Israelis are saying that all the Israeli Army was in the West Bank giving support to illegal occupations there. Which is why the attack from Gaza was a “surprise” and so powerful.

That means, the Hamas attack managing to be this successful was a direct result from the priorities that the Hard-Right government of Israel has in favoring their Religious Extremists instead of looking after the security of the country and their people.

[Upper Canada Tory]

Actions having consequences is a description, not a prescription.

What actions did the Israeli civilians take?

...do you mean other than illegally occupying Palestinian land?

I'm sure that boy who was killed by Hamas (not going into details) deserved to have his life cut short because you've decided his elders were wrong in wanting to live in the city they chose. It's a lot easier to condemn the indiscriminate massacre of civilians when you don't irrationally hate the victims, that's what I'm learning about this thread.

I would be more sympathetic with the Israelis had Israel withdrawn from illegally occupied territories.

I find this argument particularly convoluted and self-contradictory given that Hamas is not internationally recognized by most countries  as the legitimate government of Gaza but Israel is recognized as the legitimate government of the area within the 1967 borders, which Hamas is attacking and occupying. So even based on the 'international law' argument, Israel would be in the right here.

[Aurelius2]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ireland-condemns-hamas-attack-stresses-need-for-moderate-voices/

With even the government of Ireland of all places condemning Hamas without reservations, I imagine we're going to see a pretty firm united front diplomatically from the western democracies. Ireland's Jewish presence is extremely small, and this conflict has historically become a pretty abstract symbol used to analogize Irish history with (IMO) very little connection to the facts on the ground (as seen in the North, where Israeli flags are flown in Protestant neighborhoods and Palestinian flags in Catholic neighborhoods), so I was genuinely not entirely sure what their reaction would be.

(Of course, Sinn Fein is busy talking about an "intervention" to end "apartheid" and PBP is outright cheering on Hamas, but neither of them are in power. Sinn Fein may be in power after the next election though)

[Upper Canada Tory]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

We should provide as much help to Israel as they were willing to give to Ukraine.

Israel has been supporting Ukraine. However they've been doing it more discreetly to avoid retaliation from the Russians who have a large military presence in the Middle East. Zelensky has also spoken in favour of Ukraine BTW, as there are Ukrainian citizens in Israel frequently killed by Palestinian militants. If you support Palestine you support killing Ukrainians, unfortunately.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-israel-said-to-authorize-sale-of-defensive-military-equipment-to-ukraine/
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-720721
https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-possible-death-of-1-ukrainian-in-israel-information-being-verified/
https://www.rferl.org/a/israel-shooting-ukrainians-killed/31777553.html

[Red Velvet]

https://twitter.com/GONENB1/status/1710568015396270226

My father, Brigadier General Uzi Ben Yitzchak, who was the commander of the Central Command, asked me to ask why they don't tell the truth: 26 battalions, almost all of the regular IDF is in the territories. There is almost no army in the south. All this by a decision of an extreme right-wing government.

It should be said clearly.

Forces should be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza and close the fence at all costs and not let them return to Gaza

[Vice President Christian Man]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

[PSOL]

A huge amount of Israelis are saying that all the Israeli Army was in the West Bank giving support to illegal occupations there. Which is why the attack from Gaza was a “surprise” and so powerful.

That means, the Hamas attack managing to be this successful was a direct result from the priorities that the Hard-Right government of Israel has in favoring their Religious Extremists instead of looking after the security of the country and their people.

A significant amount of the Israeli army, which provides defense to the rampaging settlers, have been repositioned to deal with the Gazans. Palestine won in the first few hours of the war here.

[pppolitics]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Israel is a democracy with some... issues - some of them having come up rather recently as you may know - but it is a democracy nonetheless and is also still beating anyone in its vicinity in that regard.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

[Vice President Christian Man]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Even so it's only slightly less democratic than the US. Don't get me wrong the US isn't completely democratic but to imply that Israel is less of one than its neighbors is inaccurate.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democracy-countries

[Aurelius2]

Some in this thread have cited the divide in Israeli civil society, and the reservist protest organizations, as a problem for the Israeli military. This may have played a role in the unpreparedness that led Israel to seemingly have been caught by surprise by the terrorist operation. However, all of the major reservist protest organizations have canceled upcoming protest actions and urged reservists to serve if called up. This is very much a rally-around-the-flag moment and these divisions have been put aside for now until the terrorist threat is neutralized.

If it turns out to be accurate that there was a slow initial response due to an overconcentration of deployments in settlement blocs to protect settlers loyal to Ben Gvir, then yes that could pose a problem for Bibi and particularly for Otzma, which attracted a surge of support from groups who would normally not support such a hard-right party on the specific grounds that they were the only ones taking the security situation seriously enough (this is all just a hypothetical, though - it seems to me more like an intelligence failure than a military failure and it's very possible the Israeli public will see it the same way). However, the redeployments have already taken place, and as of several hours ago there were at least 35 units deployed to the region surrounding Gaza. This is a non-factor for the military operations going forward.

[PSOL]

I have a feeling that this war will lead to Netanyahu being removed from power in the next election. Golda Meir was not rewarded for permanently removing the threat Egypt posed to Israel and weakening Syria to the point of ruin, and neither will Netanyahu.

[JimJamUK]

Israel is clearly a democracy. That it’s people choose to elect some god awful parties and governments is not an argument against this fact.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Israel is a liberal democracy within its legally recognized borders and an occupier which has governed millions without giving them any democratic input for over fifty years. Ergo they are not a democracy.

[THG]

Israel has every right to defend itself against Hamas terrorists. This invasion is their 9/11.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Separately, I think the 24 divisions number is misleading. Judea and Samaria have a far larger border with Israel and Israel actually controls the region (and if it didn't, we would probably be seeing this attack also emerge from there), so of course more troops will be located in Judea and Samaria. The question is not why 24 divisions were in Judea and Samaria, but why Israeli troops along the border were taken by surprise and why Hamas was able to make a breach in the first place.

[NOVA Green]

Shocked and saddened to see the images of Israeli civilians murdered in cold blood by Hamas military formations, and judging by Bernie Sanders tweet, it sounds like IJ units were also involved.

Israel has a legitimate right, as well as an obligation to protect all of its citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religious affiliation, against the political-military organizations involved in these atrocities.

It is still unclear if this was a decision made by the political wing of Hamas or the military wing, so naturally this might well dictate how Israel responds.

Obviously the immediate Israeli focus is on securing parts of the country which were overrun, doing house to house operations to clear out gunmen, rescue hostages, identify tunnel locations, etc...

My biggest concern here is *how* Israel chooses to respond, especially considering the current government in power.

A full-scale invasion of Gaza will likely result in massive innocent Palestinian casualties, considering we are talking about one of the most densly populated places on Earth, where Hamas rocket factories might be buried in tunnels underneath large high rise apartment buildings.

Regardless a full-blown humanitarian crisis is likely looming in Gaza, where the vast majority of the population is dependent upon the international community for basic food items such as grain and cooking oil.

Someone posted upthread about how Israel has already shut off the power to Gaza. If so, how are the sewage, water systems, and hospitals supposed to function?

Backup emergency generators (E-Gens) can only go so far, and presumably Hamas has already prioritized them to supply power to continue to pump out homemade rockets.

I fear that considering the callousness of the Hamas attack against Israeli citizens, as opposed to focusing exclusively on military targets, Israeli public opinion will demand sending ground troops into Gaza itself.

We know how dangerous such military operations are, both for the civilians caught in the crossfire, as well as the combatants on both sides.

Israel's recent operations in Jenin would look like child's play by comparison.

This is not a place to litigate or relitigate the history of Israel and the Palestinian population over the decades.

My older sister is Orthodox Jewish, as are most of my nieces and nephews (with a few that went more secular), and a couple of whom lived in Israel for a few years in their early '20s.

For a long time my sister and my mother agreed not to discuss Israel and the Palestinians because of...

About 4-5 months back, I was having a long conversation with my sister and she actually referred to Israel as an "Apartheid State".

I was shocked to here those words from her mouth after all of these decades.

Haven't had a chance to talk to her yet about this, still being Shabbat and all that, but I would imagine she would fully support a measured Israeli military response, despite her disgust with Bibi and the "Far Right" settler population in the West Bank.