TikTok ban?

[Ferguson97]

I'm not sure if this is constitutional, but either way, I won't shed any tears for TikTok. It has poisoned the minds of millions of young Americans. It will also be funny to watch the seethe coming from it being banned.

I wonder if it will be as funny when young people just decide not to turn up to vote. This forum really does have nothing but hatred for young people.

I don’t know how to break this to you, but young Australians can’t vote in the 2024 US Presidential Election.

And I don't know how to break this to you, but people can express their opinions on things outside of their own country.

Oh, and if you have to appeal to nationalism, you've lost the argument.

First of all, "noncitizens can't vote" is a descriptive statement, not a normative statement. Second of all, how is that nationalism? Is the fact that I can't vote in the Australian elections an "appeal to nationalism"?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I'm not sure if this is constitutional, but either way, I won't shed any tears for TikTok. It has poisoned the minds of millions of young Americans. It will also be funny to watch the seethe coming from it being banned.

I wonder if it will be as funny when young people just decide not to turn up to vote. This forum really does have nothing but hatred for young people.

I don’t know how to break this to you, but young Australians can’t vote in the 2024 US Presidential Election.

And I don't know how to break this to you, but people can express their opinions on things outside of their own country.

Oh, and if you have to appeal to nationalism, you've lost the argument.

It’s not an appeal to nationalism, it’s a statement of objective fact.  Also, it is my opinion that most young people here care about this far less than you do.  I can express my opinion same as you

[GoTfan]

I'm not sure if this is constitutional, but either way, I won't shed any tears for TikTok. It has poisoned the minds of millions of young Americans. It will also be funny to watch the seethe coming from it being banned.

I wonder if it will be as funny when young people just decide not to turn up to vote. This forum really does have nothing but hatred for young people.

I don’t know how to break this to you, but young Australians can’t vote in the 2024 US Presidential Election.

And I don't know how to break this to you, but people can express their opinions on things outside of their own country.

Oh, and if you have to appeal to nationalism, you've lost the argument.

First of all, "noncitizens can't vote" is a descriptive statement, not a normative statement. Second of all, how is that nationalism? Is the fact that I can't vote in the Australian elections an "appeal to nationalism"?

I'm not here to start an argument, so I'll leave it at what I said. People are free to express rheir opinions on things on this forum no matter where they're from. I'm allowed to express my views on US issues just as you are free to express your opinion on Australian issues.

[Ferguson97]

I'm not here to start an argument, so I'll leave it at what I said. People are free to express rheir opinions on things on this forum no matter where they're from.

You're free to express yourself, just as we're free to ignore you or criticize you.

I'm allowed to express my views on US issues just as you are free to express your opinion on Australian issues.

And if we said something dumb, you'd be in your right to criticize us on the basis that we're not Australian.

I know that a lot of non-Americans follow American politics as a hobby, but the fact of the matter is that in the context of American domestic politics, the opinions of non-Americans will always be less valuable the opinions of Americans (at least on domestic issues, since foreign policy can have a direct impact on you).

And that's not a nationalism thing. I think that the opinions of a non-citizen immigrant hold greater value than those of an American citizen living abroad.

[Zinneke]

It should be a ban on all screens from school except e-ink

[It’s so Joever]

I want to be clear this is not trolling, I do believe internal misogyny is a part of why so many otherwise “pro-freedom” progressive posters on here are against TikTok. Especially when other Chinese companies operating in the US don’t get this level of scrutiny from them. (This doesn’t not apply to posters who are at least consistently anti-China everything like OSR, even though that’s also a dull stance)

And I do believe it would hurt Biden if Tiktok was banned in the US right before the election.

I hope this comment is more to the standards of moderation, I want to reiterate this is my genuine belief.

[Horus]

I want to be clear this is not trolling, I do believe internal misogyny is a part of why so many otherwise “pro-freedom” progressive posters on here are against TikTok. Especially when other Chinese companies operating in the US don’t get this level of scrutiny from them. (This doesn’t not apply to posters who are at least consistently anti-China everything like OSR, even though that’s also a dull stance)

And I do believe it would hurt Biden if Tiktok was banned in the US right before the election.

I hope this comment is more to the standards of moderation, I want to reiterate this is my genuine belief.

If it's misogyny, shouldn't those posters also be anti Instagram? I think both skew towards a slightly more female user base while Twitter is more male. Would make sense.

[It’s so Joever]

I want to be clear this is not trolling, I do believe internal misogyny is a part of why so many otherwise “pro-freedom” progressive posters on here are against TikTok. Especially when other Chinese companies operating in the US don’t get this level of scrutiny from them. (This doesn’t not apply to posters who are at least consistently anti-China everything like OSR, even though that’s also a dull stance)

And I do believe it would hurt Biden if Tiktok was banned in the US right before the election.

I hope this comment is more to the standards of moderation, I want to reiterate this is my genuine belief.

If it's misogyny, shouldn't those posters also be anti Instagram? I think both skew towards a slightly more female user base while Twitter is more male. Would make sense.

I would argue many of these posters I have in mind are anti-Instagram personally and do see it as a huge evil, but don’t have a good enough excuse to ban it. However if they were given one, I think they would convince themselves Instagram should be banned as well.

[Arizona Iced Tea]

I used to be vehemently anti TikTok until a year ago. Then I realized what is the CCP going to do with my data? I'm nearly 7k miles away from them and don't have plans of visiting their country. But they built a platform that allowed millions of people from my generation to share their creativity, beliefs, and content with across the world free of censorship and control. And I have to respect Bytedance for that. Is TikTok addicting, I mean sure but you can say that about TV, or the internet in general. Meanwhile our own government conducts surveillance of us, and poses a greater direct threat to you than the CCP in terms of what they can do. The Uniparty kills everything it touches.

[Flats the Flounder]

I'm against banning TikTok, if we do their insanity will spread to the rest of the internet just like when Vine and Tumblr got shut down

[Green Line]

Strongly support.  The Chinese are using it to subvert our democracy and brainwash our idiot kids.

[vitoNova]

Imagine banning things you don’t like. 

lol

That could never be me.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

People who use these apps to the point of sensory addiction are forging their own chains. When you log on, you may as well be signing up for a lobotomy.

However, even if the worst fears about TikTok are borne out, what Bytedance is doing to Americans is no different from what we have done, are doing, and will continue to do to ourselves.

What's most distressing about the ongoing political conversation is just how ignorant politicians are of the real social problems that emerge from new forms of media connectivity. The kids will have to dig themselves out of this hole someday, because Millenials (and older generations) are still digging.

To the degree that this is true, it isn't something that can necessarily be fixed by laws/government.

It certainly won't be fixed by this one.

There's definitely SOME policy solution in the big fat grey area between "this one app is the only problem and if we ban it everything will be beautiful and nothing will hurt" and "thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind". Will we as a polity ever alight on it? Who knows? Certainly not Biden or Trump or Warner or Blumenthal or ContentLover69.

[TheTide]

I'm not sure if this is constitutional, but either way, I won't shed any tears for TikTok. It has poisoned the minds of millions of young Americans. It will also be funny to watch the seethe coming from it being banned.

I wonder if it will be as funny when young people just decide not to turn up to vote. This forum really does have nothing but hatred for young people.

I don’t know how to break this to you, but young Australians can’t vote in the 2024 US Presidential Election.

And I don't know how to break this to you, but people can express their opinions on things outside of their own country.

Oh, and if you have to appeal to nationalism, you've lost the argument.

Also, it is my opinion that most young people here care about this far less than you do.

On this subject, I did see a study (can't be bothered to find it atm) showing that TikTok usage amongst young people in the U.S. is considerably lower than conventional wisdom would probably have it.

[brucejoel99]

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1765963340461826293
&, yet, God Emperor Trump is still sufficiently influential among the GOP that he likely just got them to kill the bill anyway

[SWE]

Rare instance of Trump's pudding brain making him susceptible to agreeing with the last thing he heard being used for good

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

I'm a big supporter of this policy, not because I care about Chinese influence, data privacy or anything but soley because it will rid the literary world of the cancer that is booktok.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Look, this isn't about TikTok.  TikTok is really bad on its own, and it's entirely possible that after ByteDance is forced to sell its American operation to, like, Oracle or whoever, it will still be an outrageously addictive app, whose format naturally gravitates towards outrage and extremism and conspiratorial thought, and whose algorithm organically creates information bubbles where disinformation spreads like wildfire.

But:

A) Even if that is the case, this kind of information about how Americans think, what our neuroses and biases and fears are, what we love and hate, should not be in the hands of the Chinese Communist Party.  This is just a simple, obvious matter of national security.  Delivering a foreign enemy the most perfect guidebook imaginable on how to manipulate Americans is bad.  Any app that produces data at sufficient volume and quality to make this a concern should not be allowed to operate in the United States if there is a risk of said data being shared with a hostile foreign power who could subsequently weaponize it against us.

B) It's inherently obvious that the app could be weaponized against Americans.  Now maybe you are like me, and you believe it's no accident that the app is dominated by anti-American viewpoints, conspiracy theories and flat-out lies.  But even if you don't, it's impossible to disagree that it could be weaponized by our enemy to inject propaganda into the minds of Americans in an incredibly effective and subtle way.  That's bad, that's a weapon we shouldn't give them.  That's a possibility we shouldn't allow for.

C) Part of the problem with CCP ownership of TikTok is that the U.S. government has no way to audit it, so if they are controlling the algorithm, or if they're not today but tomorrow they start to, we have no way of knowing.  If an American company owned it, we could regulate it, audit it, pass legislation forcing them to police disinformation and remove content harmful to mental health.  Even a simple community notes system similar to Twitter would be massive for cutting down on TikTok's ability to spread totally fake BS faster than the speed of light.  But we don't have any kind of control over its operations today, nor do we have any insight into the black box of its algorithm.

I would say the same about any app or website operating on American soil that becomes too powerful and collects too much data.  We can not allow any foreign app to obtain such a massive amount of data about Americans that could potentially be weaponized against us.  We can not allow any foreign app to hold such a massive degree of control over what Americans see every day, what we believe, how we perceive the world around us, etc. without any ability to regulate or audit it.

And this isn't some unheard-of position.  It's literally the position of the CCP.  There are tons of American apps that don't operate in China because of Chinese rules, or like Google they make special China-specific versions that China can audit/regulate.  Now that's not saying we should become the People's Republic of America.  Unlike China, we have a first amendment that lets us say whatever we please.  But that first amendment doesn't give foreign enemy states the right to collect unlimited data on Americans with zero accountability or regulation!

[heatcharger]

Look, this isn't about TikTok.  TikTok is really bad on its own, and it's entirely possible that after ByteDance is forced to sell its American operation to, like, Oracle or whoever, it will still be an outrageously addictive app, whose format naturally gravitates towards outrage and extremism and conspiratorial thought, and whose algorithm organically creates information bubbles where disinformation spreads like wildfire.

But:

A) Even if that is the case, this kind of information about how Americans think, what our neuroses and biases and fears are, what we love and hate, should not be in the hands of the Chinese Communist Party.  This is just a simple, obvious matter of national security.  Delivering a foreign enemy the most perfect guidebook imaginable on how to manipulate Americans is bad.  Any app that produces data at sufficient volume and quality to make this a concern should not be allowed to operate in the United States if there is a risk of said data being shared with a hostile foreign power who could subsequently weaponize it against us.

B) It's inherently obvious that the app could be weaponized against Americans.  Now maybe you are like me, and you believe it's no accident that the app is dominated by anti-American viewpoints, conspiracy theories and flat-out lies.  But even if you don't, it's impossible to disagree that it could be weaponized by our enemy to inject propaganda into the minds of Americans in an incredibly effective and subtle way.  That's bad, that's a weapon we shouldn't give them.  That's a possibility we shouldn't allow for.

C) Part of the problem with CCP ownership of TikTok is that the U.S. government has no way to audit it, so if they are controlling the algorithm, or if they're not today but tomorrow they start to, we have no way of knowing.  If an American company owned it, we could regulate it, audit it, pass legislation forcing them to police disinformation and remove content harmful to mental health.  Even a simple community notes system similar to Twitter would be massive for cutting down on TikTok's ability to spread totally fake BS faster than the speed of light.  But we don't have any kind of control over its operations today, nor do we have any insight into the black box of its algorithm.

I would say the same about any app or website operating on American soil that becomes too powerful and collects too much data.  We can not allow any foreign app to obtain such a massive amount of data about Americans that could potentially be weaponized against us.  We can not allow any foreign app to hold such a massive degree of control over what Americans see every day, what we believe, how we perceive the world around us, etc. without any ability to regulate or audit it.

And this isn't some unheard-of position.  It's literally the position of the CCP.  There are tons of American apps that don't operate in China because of Chinese rules, or like Google they make special China-specific versions that China can audit/regulate.  Now that's not saying we should become the People's Republic of America.  Unlike China, we have a first amendment that lets us say whatever we please.  But that first amendment doesn't give foreign enemy states the right to collect unlimited data on Americans with zero accountability or regulation!

Summarized: we must control the narrative.

[Rand]

What is so bad about the sound clocks make?

[Horus]

I don't care what happens to tiktok. I don't use it and never will. But it's very funny that a bunch of blue avs suddenly changed their mind as soon as Trump changed his. Do you think for yourselves at all? Extremely pathetic.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Summarized: we must control the narrative.

heatcharger, I do not think that is an accurate summary of my post.

[YE]

The only dumber take than thinking Biden being insufficiently pro-Palestine will hurt him is the idea that banning TikTok will.

[heatcharger]

Summarized: we must control the narrative.

heatcharger, I do not think that is an accurate summary of my post.

It is. Once you veer into complaining about the type of content on the platform it’s clear you want changes to what Americans are seeing on social media. Most anti-TikTok arguments end up in this direction.

[It’s so Joever]

I used to be vehemently anti TikTok until a year ago. Then I realized what is the CCP going to do with my data? I'm nearly 7k miles away from them and don't have plans of visiting their country. But they built a platform that allowed millions of people from my generation to share their creativity, beliefs, and content with across the world free of censorship and control. And I have to respect Bytedance for that. Is TikTok addicting, I mean sure but you can say that about TV, or the internet in general. Meanwhile our own government conducts surveillance of us, and poses a greater direct threat to you than the CCP in terms of what they can do. The Uniparty kills everything it touches.

If only our surveillance state was as powerful as you think it is…