TikTok ban?

[Mr. Reactionary]

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

I've seen literal 14 year olds make better memes than that

[Ferguson97]

Republicans doing a complete 180 on this issue solely because of Trump is hilarious.

[GeneralMacArthur]

stealing, hording, and selling American's personal data should be a whites only industry

c'mon man

I was being deliberately provocative there, but listening to skeptics of this legislation, it's very clear that people are angry about the government's indifference towards American tech companies stealing our information and spying on us. Instead of targeting TikTok we could kill the whole problem at once and do it in a way that almost everyone would support.

If an American tech company was giving our data to the government of an enemy state, I would have just as big a problem with that as I do with TikTok.  As it stands, American tech companies do not do this.  On the contrary, I work for an American tech company and I can tell you that the amount of regulation and restriction we have to deal with to remain compliant in our handling of user data is quite onerous.  And it is only getting worse with the advent of the DMA.

The current loophole being exploited is that enforcement of EU regulations is delegated to the European country you declare as your "main establishment", and all the major tech companies have picked Ireland, a small country whose regulatory authority is overwhelmed by the underfunded auditing mandates now incumbent upon it.  But yes big tech companies do have to comply with these data usage and privacy regulations, or run the risk of being audited and incurring incredibly steep fines running into the billions of dollars.

A fundamental difference is that I think using personal data to improve the efficiency of targeted advertising is ultimately a good thing, at least as an abstract concept (obviously there are specific cases where it's bad).  As I've written elsewhere on this forum, if you have to have advertising, having to watch the same cellphone, insurance, car and food ads a dozen times over and over and over is such an inferior experience to targeted internet ads that build a profile of you, know what you like to buy and how you like it presented, and serve you those ads.  Since those ads are far more efficient, there's lower volume of them.  If college football was able to do targeted advertising based on personal data, we could get 20 minutes of ads per game and they'd almost all be interesting and relevant, as opposed to two hours of repetitive, lowest-common-denominator ads for products and companies I couldn't care less about.

In comparison, I think using personal data to develop propaganda whose purpose is to undermine American foreign policy and promote Chinese imperialism is bad.  We live in an age where information warfare is more important and more powerful than conventional warfare.  And given that China is an increasingly aggressive enemy state with clear imperial ambitions in Africa and the South China Sea, it's absolutely a national security vulnerability to allow them to keep building this information weapon.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Republicans doing a complete 180 on this issue solely because of Trump is hilarious.

They just keep acting like our position is "I don't like TikTok so it should be banned" even though the actual reasons for banning forcing the sale of TikTok are very obvious, have been clearly stated over and over again, and in fact were clearly stated and espoused by the exact same people now mocking us for agreeing with their former position.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

[All Along The Watchtower]

stealing, hording, and selling American's personal data should be a whites only industry

c'mon man

I was being deliberately provocative there, but listening to skeptics of this legislation, it's very clear that people are angry about the government's indifference towards American tech companies stealing our information and spying on us. Instead of targeting TikTok we could kill the whole problem at once and do it in a way that almost everyone would support.

If an American tech company was giving our data to the government of an enemy state, I would have just as big a problem with that as I do with TikTok.  As it stands, American tech companies do not do this.  On the contrary, I work for an American tech company and I can tell you that the amount of regulation and restriction we have to deal with to remain compliant in our handling of user data is quite onerous.  And it is only getting worse with the advent of the DMA.

The current loophole being exploited is that enforcement of EU regulations is delegated to the European country you declare as your "main establishment", and all the major tech companies have picked Ireland, a small country whose regulatory authority is overwhelmed by the underfunded auditing mandates now incumbent upon it.  But yes big tech companies do have to comply with these data usage and privacy regulations, or run the risk of being audited and incurring incredibly steep fines running into the billions of dollars.

A fundamental difference is that I think using personal data to improve the efficiency of targeted advertising is ultimately a good thing, at least as an abstract concept (obviously there are specific cases where it's bad).  As I've written elsewhere on this forum, if you have to have advertising, having to watch the same cellphone, insurance, car and food ads a dozen times over and over and over is such an inferior experience to targeted internet ads that build a profile of you, know what you like to buy and how you like it presented, and serve you those ads.  Since those ads are far more efficient, there's lower volume of them.  If college football was able to do targeted advertising based on personal data, we could get 20 minutes of ads per game and they'd almost all be interesting and relevant, as opposed to two hours of repetitive, lowest-common-denominator ads for products and companies I couldn't care less about.

In comparison, I think using personal data to develop propaganda whose purpose is to undermine American foreign policy and promote Chinese imperialism is bad.  We live in an age where information warfare is more important and more powerful than conventional warfare.  And given that China is an increasingly aggressive enemy state with clear imperial ambitions in Africa and the South China Sea, it's absolutely a national security vulnerability to allow them to keep building this information weapon.

China is an enemy state that the US has full diplomatic relations with, unlike Taiwan. Hmm.

FWIW, there is no actual ideological competition between China and the US, because the CCP has long given up on trying to export ideology and instead focuses on economic development and global trade to strengthen the power of the Chinese state. And it would only make sense that Communist Party-ruled states would not bother with fighting the West ideologically, since it’s been over three decades since that was even theoretically a real conflict.

China is totalitarian? So is the UAE, yet they’re one of the US’s closest Middle East allies. Come to think of it, the UAE is also very close to China and Russia, and they are helping the latter evade US and EU sanctions re: Ukraine. Ouch!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Imagine if the Nazi Party had the ability to beam Nazi propaganda fliers directly into the eyes of American children, and the youth of America then were mostly basically addicted to the Nazi propaganda. That's the situation we have today.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

Imagine if the Nazi Party had the ability to beam Nazi propaganda fliers directly into the eyes of American children, and the youth of America then were mostly basically addicted to the Nazi propaganda. That's the situation we have today.

Tik tok shows you what you interact with. If you’re get CCP propaganda that means you are engaging with it. All my tik tok is is mostly food, animals, Reddit ai readings, and gay memes

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Summarized: we must control the narrative.

heatcharger, I do not think that is an accurate summary of my post.

It is. Once you veer into complaining about the type of content on the platform it’s clear you want changes to what Americans are seeing on social media. Most anti-TikTok arguments end up in this direction.

Who doesn't?

[GeneralMacArthur]

China is totalitarian? So is the UAE, yet they’re one of the US’s closest Middle East allies. Come to think of it, the UAE is also very close to China and Russia, and they are helping the latter evade US and EU sanctions re: Ukraine. Ouch!

Guys are we seriously saying that it's A-OK for China to spy on U.S. citizens and collect an enormous amount of data on us, which it then uses on its propaganda app that each of us has in our pockets, because while China may be a totalitarian state, there are other totalitarian states that America has a better relationship with?

I'm tempted to go back to the Chinese Spy Balloon thread and see how many of you guys were totally cool with China spying on American citizens back then.  I mean I feel like I'm taking crazy pills or something.  Did I just hallucinate the last 5-10 years where people were super concerned about China spying on Americans?  Am I just totally fabricating this notion that up until 72 hours ago or so, most Americans viewed China as our #1 global rival and a serious threat?

And what is up with this bizarro position where everyone spent the last twenty years freaking out about the American government collecting data on American citizens, but now we're all totally cool with the Chinese government collecting data on American citizens because "what's the worst they could do with it?"

Honestly this thread is just convincing me more and more that banning TikTok is a matter of national urgency and needs to be treated as our top security priority.  The extent to which you all have been manipulated into espousing beliefs that you would have never dreamed of espousing just a few short years ago, it's just wild.  I feel like I'm in Invasion of the Body Snatchers, like I'm the only guy here who doesn't actively use TikTok so I'm the only one who hasn't had my brain stolen by Chinese propaganda.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Y’all realize this doesn’t “ban” tik tok but would force it to be sold to an American company

It is concerning how crassly protectionist the US has become in the name of “security.”  This applies to many issues (notably immigration), not just social media companies or trade.

Protectionism in the context of defending our national security interests is 100% justified.

[quesaisje]

I've seen literal 14 year olds make better memes than that

He had to pick from a smaller pool of fourteen-year-olds with more peculiar politics to make that one

[Beet]

Unless the Chinese govt changed its mind its going to be a ban NOT a forced sale
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-oppose-us-lawmakers-move-093000760.html

Which means you'll have to use VPN to access it which is ironic bc VPN is what people in China use to access uncensored content.

[SteveRogers]

I don’t use tik tok, so maybe I’m missing something here, but what kind of “data” is it specifically that we’re worried the Chinese are stealing from users?

[All Along The Watchtower]

I don’t use tik tok

Neither do I.

If the US government insists on banning it, then by all means. But the national security paranoia and protectionism that motivates this panic while ignoring American companies engaged in similar behavior is just ridiculous.

Important to note that plenty of Americans have found themselves on the wrong end of the national security state, which goes back over a century really (see: J. Edgar Hoover’s career). And the post-9/11 permanent securitization only intensified it. Americans—younger cohorts in particular who have no memory of a pre-9/11, pre-GWOT world—could be forgiven for being skeptical of claims that foreign governments are the ones they should be most frightened of in their daily lives.

Doesn’t help that the rapid deterioration in relations between the US and China started under the American President most brazenly hostile to democratic norms and the rule of law, in addition to him being a massive racist and xenophobic jackass. In an ideal world, the identity of the messenger would have no bearing on the content of the message itself, but we live in the real world.

[Vosem]

I am not incredibly comfortable with the precedent this sets, and I think that I'd be very uncomfortable with Congress actually attempting to regulate the sort of algorithms that social media networks can choose to promote, but I think I am fine with putting up protectionist roadblocks to foreign media from countries we are geopolitically opposed to. If China wants to appeal to Americans, they should pull a Russia and recruit some Tucker Carlson type.

Republicans doing a complete 180 on this issue solely because of Trump is hilarious.

It's actually even funnier than you realize, because the reason Trump is against banning TikTok is speculated to be that Jeff Yass, a major Trump donor, is also a major investor in ByteDance. Yass is also a huge donor to the Israeli far-right (the article takes a very negative tone to something I don't really think is bad at all, but the facts in the piece are basically true), and holds exactly the opposite of the sort of views that TikTok is accused of spreading.

(I guess in some sense it's patriotic: Yass is funding both sides of online Israel-Palestine fighting much as the US government is funding both sides of the war.)

Summarized: we must control the narrative.

heatcharger, I do not think that is an accurate summary of my post.

It is. Once you veer into complaining about the type of content on the platform it’s clear you want changes to what Americans are seeing on social media. Most anti-TikTok arguments end up in this direction.

Who doesn't?

Eh...be careful what you wish for.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Imagine if the Nazi Party had the ability to beam Nazi propaganda fliers directly into the eyes of American children, and the youth of America then were mostly basically addicted to the Nazi propaganda. That's the situation we have today.

Tik tok shows you what you interact with. If you’re get CCP propaganda that means you are engaging with it. All my tik tok is is mostly food, animals, Reddit ai readings, and gay memes

Except they algorithmize it so CCP-backed content gets more common. And let's not forget things like banning that girl who made a video disguised as a makeup tutorial to bring attention to the Uyghur genocide.

[emailking]

I don’t use tik tok, so maybe I’m missing something here, but what kind of “data” is it specifically that we’re worried the Chinese are stealing from users?

I think the worry is that it's some kind of malware that steals data from your phone.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I don’t use tik tok, so maybe I’m missing something here, but what kind of “data” is it specifically that we’re worried the Chinese are stealing from users?

Basically how we think, what kind of persuasion techniques we're susceptible to, the optimal strategies to appeal to us with disinformation, how to take advantage of our neuroses and individual personality proclivities.  Not as a whole, but on the level of each individual person.  Maybe the strategy for convincing you that China has a god-given right to annex Taiwan is completely different from the strategy for convincing me.  No matter, with the degree of highly-personalized data that TikTok has on each of us, that's an easily-solvable problem.

I mean this isn't some hypothetical.  Russia purchased Facebook data via Cambridge Analytica so it could utilize this exact strategy to figure out how to appeal to various different political subgroups in America, categorized every single Facebook user into one of those subgroups, and then executed different boutique strategies to try and pursue a different goal per-subgroup.

China has it much easier because they already have all this data, they're collecting more and more every second, the kind of data they're collecting is far more valuable, and they can run experiments in real-time by personalizing the algorithm.

I honestly don't know how to appeal to Republicans with this analogy because I don't know if you guys think what Russia did was awesome, or you hate Russia but think the Cambridge Analytica thing was just a hoax, or you think Russia's strategy didn't work, or you think China executing this strategy would also be awesome because now you love China because Trump said so, or you think China would never try to pull something like this, or what.  Your positions on our two primary geopolitical rivals change so much that's impossible to keep up.  I'm not sure even Republicans know what their positions are supposed to be right now.

That's why I'm happy to be a Democrat.  My position for the last 15 years has consistently been that Russia and China are both bad and that we shouldn't hand them any tools they could use to secure any sort of advantage over us.

[brucejoel99]

https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/1766877357040693745

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

You gotta love Trump saying he doesn't want to ban Chinese owned Tiktok while simultaneously attacking American owned Meta. And, I am pissed Trump alone caused my Meta stock to drop 5% today.

[Beet]

The issue is that any potential manipulation of TikTok's algorithim as well as any data collection use by the CCP can both be addressed by means short of a ban. Simply open up the algorithim to regulators so they can see what's in it, would solve the first issue. And keep all the data in the US with the passwords only available to employees of a third party auditor or a regulator would solve the other issue.

And further, require a corporate structure so that the US operations are essentially independent, and any communications from "HQ" down are monitored by regulators, and any policies issued from HQ down subject to regulatory approval.

With those reforms in place, there is no need for the most draconian restriction on Americans' speech in a century, as well as opening up the can of worms of the government telling people which apps can be used or not. And besides, all of the data collection and manipulation concerns regarding TikTok also apply to other social media companies. They may be of a different scale, but our privacy should be protected against misuse by domestic actors as well. So there should be a bill covering general privacy protections rather than this bill.

[heatcharger]

You gotta love Trump saying he doesn't want to ban Chinese owned Tiktok while simultaneously attacking American owned Meta. And, I am pissed Trump alone caused my Meta stock to drop 5% today.

We need a president who can control the stock market folks. Thank you!

[GeneralMacArthur]

The issue is that any potential manipulation of TikTok's algorithim as well as any data collection use by the CCP can both be addressed by means short of a ban. Simply open up the algorithim to regulators so they can see what's in it, would solve the first issue. And keep all the data in the US with the passwords only available to employees of a third party auditor or a regulator would solve the other issue.

And further, require a corporate structure so that the US operations are essentially independent, and any communications from "HQ" down are monitored by regulators, and any policies issued from HQ down subject to regulatory approval.

With those reforms in place, there is no need for the most draconian restriction on Americans' speech in a century, as well as opening up the can of worms of the government telling people which apps can be used or not. And besides, all of the data collection and manipulation concerns regarding TikTok also apply to other social media companies. They may be of a different scale, but our privacy should be protected against misuse by domestic actors as well. So there should be a bill covering general privacy protections rather than this bill.

This is hardly "the most draconian restriction on Americans' speech in a century."  It is not demanding any change to TikTok's functionality at all.  It is just saying that an app that stores massive amounts of user data in a totally non-transparent way should be owned by an American company.  The amount of disinformation and conspiratorial thought around this issue is staggering.