Israel-Gaza war

[pppolitics]

If nuclear weapons are not so hard to make, then why don't you have any?

This question is so stupid that I am not even going to dignify it with an answer.

Dude, just be honest and admit that you want Hamas to murder all the (((Jews))).  No one who has even half a brain cell believes you’re not a rabid anti-Semite.  Then again, I suppose you did basically admit as much with your bizarre fantasizing about an imaginary Hamas victory.

Those are your words, not mine.

What I want is for the US to cut off aid to Israel.

What happens after that is no longer the US's problem.

Israel and Iran can blow each other up for all I care.

Press X to doubt

Since you are having a tough time reading between the lines, let me just tell you...

I am less concerned about Israel committing genocide.

I am more concerned about the US being complicit in Israel committing genocide.

If the US stops sending aid to Israel and covering its ass, then it's much harder to argue that the US is being complicit.

It's hard to claim moral authority around the world when one is being complicit in a genocide.

Luckily, Israel isn’t committing genocide, so no worries on that front.  

Even Joe Biden, a self-proclaimed Zionist, admitted that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza.

1) Let’s say, just for discussion sake, that it were true that Israel was indiscriminately bombing Gaza with no concern whatsoever for military value of targets or lack thereof or potential civilian collateral and were doing this as a deliberate strategy (they’re not, but let’s say you are right and they are).  That would not be genocide in any way, shape, or form.  It would definitely be a brutal war crime, but it objectively would not be genocide.  That you seem to think it would be suggests you genuinely don’t understand what genocide is.  Yes, we all know you can Google the term and copy paste a definition, but you clearly don’t understand what it is or you’d have chosen an example of alleged conduct that…you know…would actually be genocide if Israel was doing it.

2) ROTFL.  I literally made that post as an experiment/test and boy did you flunk it.  I decided to make a lazy, one line drive by response with little-to-no thought put into it paired with a substantive, nuanced, detailed, and thoughtful response to your latest schtick and see what type of conversation you were actually looking to have in this thread.  Disappointingly, although unsurprisingly, you picked the one sentence section deliberately designed to be as devoid of substance as possible while not even acknowledging anything else in the post, much less actively engaging with it.  Really says a lot about what you’re looking to do here and none of it good.

Since you don't agree with the United Nations's definition of genocide, define "genocide" for me.

You’re only digging yourself into an even deeper hole.  Just put down the shovel and admit that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Israel is denying visas to UN employees.

Coincidence?

The problem isn't that I don't know what genocide is.

The problem is that you don't know what genocide is.

The problem is that you don’t know what genocide is nor do you care because you’re only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews))).  

When you are making a full-throated accusation like that, you better have a lot of evidence to back it up.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

If nuclear weapons are not so hard to make, then why don't you have any?

This question is so stupid that I am not even going to dignify it with an answer.

Dude, just be honest and admit that you want Hamas to murder all the (((Jews))).  No one who has even half a brain cell believes you’re not a rabid anti-Semite.  Then again, I suppose you did basically admit as much with your bizarre fantasizing about an imaginary Hamas victory.

Those are your words, not mine.

What I want is for the US to cut off aid to Israel.

What happens after that is no longer the US's problem.

Israel and Iran can blow each other up for all I care.

Press X to doubt

Since you are having a tough time reading between the lines, let me just tell you...

I am less concerned about Israel committing genocide.

I am more concerned about the US being complicit in Israel committing genocide.

If the US stops sending aid to Israel and covering its ass, then it's much harder to argue that the US is being complicit.

It's hard to claim moral authority around the world when one is being complicit in a genocide.

Luckily, Israel isn’t committing genocide, so no worries on that front.  

Even Joe Biden, a self-proclaimed Zionist, admitted that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza.

1) Let’s say, just for discussion sake, that it were true that Israel was indiscriminately bombing Gaza with no concern whatsoever for military value of targets or lack thereof or potential civilian collateral and were doing this as a deliberate strategy (they’re not, but let’s say you are right and they are).  That would not be genocide in any way, shape, or form.  It would definitely be a brutal war crime, but it objectively would not be genocide.  That you seem to think it would be suggests you genuinely don’t understand what genocide is.  Yes, we all know you can Google the term and copy paste a definition, but you clearly don’t understand what it is or you’d have chosen an example of alleged conduct that…you know…would actually be genocide if Israel was doing it.

2) ROTFL.  I literally made that post as an experiment/test and boy did you flunk it.  I decided to make a lazy, one line drive by response with little-to-no thought put into it paired with a substantive, nuanced, detailed, and thoughtful response to your latest schtick and see what type of conversation you were actually looking to have in this thread.  Disappointingly, although unsurprisingly, you picked the one sentence section deliberately designed to be as devoid of substance as possible while not even acknowledging anything else in the post, much less actively engaging with it.  Really says a lot about what you’re looking to do here and none of it good.

Since you don't agree with the United Nations's definition of genocide, define "genocide" for me.

You’re only digging yourself into an even deeper hole.  Just put down the shovel and admit that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Israel is denying visas to UN employees.

Coincidence?

The problem isn't that I don't know what genocide is.

The problem is that you don't know what genocide is.

The problem is that you don’t know what genocide is nor do you care because you’re only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews))).  

Accusing anyone who doubts Israel is telling the unvarnished truth is not wanting to mass murder Jews. This is why Israel is losing the propaganda war. People who question you are not all filthy anti-semites who would have been Nazis in the 1940s, and it would do you and other supporters of Israel a lot of good to remember that.

I’m talking very specifically about pppolitics.  I’m not talking about you or making some generalization about pro-Palestinian folks.

If nuclear weapons are not so hard to make, then why don't you have any?

This question is so stupid that I am not even going to dignify it with an answer.

Dude, just be honest and admit that you want Hamas to murder all the (((Jews))).  No one who has even half a brain cell believes you’re not a rabid anti-Semite.  Then again, I suppose you did basically admit as much with your bizarre fantasizing about an imaginary Hamas victory.

Those are your words, not mine.

What I want is for the US to cut off aid to Israel.

What happens after that is no longer the US's problem.

Israel and Iran can blow each other up for all I care.

Press X to doubt

Since you are having a tough time reading between the lines, let me just tell you...

I am less concerned about Israel committing genocide.

I am more concerned about the US being complicit in Israel committing genocide.

If the US stops sending aid to Israel and covering its ass, then it's much harder to argue that the US is being complicit.

It's hard to claim moral authority around the world when one is being complicit in a genocide.

Luckily, Israel isn’t committing genocide, so no worries on that front.  

Even Joe Biden, a self-proclaimed Zionist, admitted that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza.

1) Let’s say, just for discussion sake, that it were true that Israel was indiscriminately bombing Gaza with no concern whatsoever for military value of targets or lack thereof or potential civilian collateral and were doing this as a deliberate strategy (they’re not, but let’s say you are right and they are).  That would not be genocide in any way, shape, or form.  It would definitely be a brutal war crime, but it objectively would not be genocide.  That you seem to think it would be suggests you genuinely don’t understand what genocide is.  Yes, we all know you can Google the term and copy paste a definition, but you clearly don’t understand what it is or you’d have chosen an example of alleged conduct that…you know…would actually be genocide if Israel was doing it.

2) ROTFL.  I literally made that post as an experiment/test and boy did you flunk it.  I decided to make a lazy, one line drive by response with little-to-no thought put into it paired with a substantive, nuanced, detailed, and thoughtful response to your latest schtick and see what type of conversation you were actually looking to have in this thread.  Disappointingly, although unsurprisingly, you picked the one sentence section deliberately designed to be as devoid of substance as possible while not even acknowledging anything else in the post, much less actively engaging with it.  Really says a lot about what you’re looking to do here and none of it good.

Since you don't agree with the United Nations's definition of genocide, define "genocide" for me.

You’re only digging yourself into an even deeper hole.  Just put down the shovel and admit that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Israel is denying visas to UN employees.

Coincidence?

The problem isn't that I don't know what genocide is.

The problem is that you don't know what genocide is.

The problem is that you don’t know what genocide is nor do you care because you’re only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews))).  

When you are making a full-throated accusation like that, you better have a lot of evidence to back it up.

Your posting history is sufficient evidence as far as I’m concerned.  Hell, your posting history in this thread is sufficient evidence.

[Horus]

Mr. X has also accused me of antisemitism with no evidence, and has called me a self hating Jew. The fact that he resorts to such nasty personal attacks is sickening.

[pppolitics]

If nuclear weapons are not so hard to make, then why don't you have any?

This question is so stupid that I am not even going to dignify it with an answer.

Dude, just be honest and admit that you want Hamas to murder all the (((Jews))).  No one who has even half a brain cell believes you’re not a rabid anti-Semite.  Then again, I suppose you did basically admit as much with your bizarre fantasizing about an imaginary Hamas victory.

Those are your words, not mine.

What I want is for the US to cut off aid to Israel.

What happens after that is no longer the US's problem.

Israel and Iran can blow each other up for all I care.

Press X to doubt

Since you are having a tough time reading between the lines, let me just tell you...

I am less concerned about Israel committing genocide.

I am more concerned about the US being complicit in Israel committing genocide.

If the US stops sending aid to Israel and covering its ass, then it's much harder to argue that the US is being complicit.

It's hard to claim moral authority around the world when one is being complicit in a genocide.

Luckily, Israel isn’t committing genocide, so no worries on that front.  

Even Joe Biden, a self-proclaimed Zionist, admitted that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza.

1) Let’s say, just for discussion sake, that it were true that Israel was indiscriminately bombing Gaza with no concern whatsoever for military value of targets or lack thereof or potential civilian collateral and were doing this as a deliberate strategy (they’re not, but let’s say you are right and they are).  That would not be genocide in any way, shape, or form.  It would definitely be a brutal war crime, but it objectively would not be genocide.  That you seem to think it would be suggests you genuinely don’t understand what genocide is.  Yes, we all know you can Google the term and copy paste a definition, but you clearly don’t understand what it is or you’d have chosen an example of alleged conduct that…you know…would actually be genocide if Israel was doing it.

2) ROTFL.  I literally made that post as an experiment/test and boy did you flunk it.  I decided to make a lazy, one line drive by response with little-to-no thought put into it paired with a substantive, nuanced, detailed, and thoughtful response to your latest schtick and see what type of conversation you were actually looking to have in this thread.  Disappointingly, although unsurprisingly, you picked the one sentence section deliberately designed to be as devoid of substance as possible while not even acknowledging anything else in the post, much less actively engaging with it.  Really says a lot about what you’re looking to do here and none of it good.

Since you don't agree with the United Nations's definition of genocide, define "genocide" for me.

You’re only digging yourself into an even deeper hole.  Just put down the shovel and admit that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Israel is denying visas to UN employees.

Coincidence?

The problem isn't that I don't know what genocide is.

The problem is that you don't know what genocide is.

The problem is that you don’t know what genocide is nor do you care because you’re only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews))).  

When you are making a full-throated accusation like that, you better have a lot of evidence to back it up.

Your posting history is sufficient evidence as far as I’m concerned.  Hell, your posting history in this thread is sufficient evidence.

Are you going to point to specific things that I've said?

[pppolitics]

Mr. X has also accused me of antisemitism with no evidence, and has called me a self hating Jew. The fact that he resorts to such nasty personal attacks is sickening.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it may just be a duck.  If you don’t want people to think you might be a self-hating Jew, maybe don’t display rabid, foaming at the mouth contempt for the idea that anti-Semitism is a bad and dangerous thing.  I call them as I see them and I take folks as they come.  You’re not here to play nice or have substantive discourse nor have you ever been.  You’re here to draw blood on anyone who disagrees with you and you’ve never hesitated to go scorched earth to achieve this goal without provocation.  

As such, the gloves come off when we butt heads.  I give my unvarnished opinion of you and I don’t hold back because of how aggressively and mean-spiritedly you behave whenever you disagree with someone on this stuff, so spare me the false outrage.  I have you on ignore most of the time because I don’t like talking to folks this way even when, as in your case, I believe they richly deserve it.

I don’t say any of this as a personal attack, I’m just stating the facts as I see them.  I don’t expect you to agree.  In any case, if you don’t want the part, then don’t audition for it; know what I mean?  It has nothing to do with your views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and everything to do with how you talk about anti-semitism, especially your tone when doing so.

You are falsely equating criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism

[Horus]

Mr. X has also accused me of antisemitism with no evidence, and has called me a self hating Jew. The fact that he resorts to such nasty personal attacks is sickening.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it may just be a duck.  If you don’t want people to think you might be a self-hating Jew, maybe don’t display rabid, foaming at the mouth contempt for the idea that anti-Semitism is a bad and dangerous thing.  I call them as I see them and I take folks as they come.  You’re not here to play nice or have substantive discourse nor have you ever been.  You’re here to draw blood on anyone who disagrees with you and you’ve never hesitated to go scorched earth to achieve this goal without provocation.  

As such, the gloves come off when we butt heads.  I give my unvarnished opinion of you and I don’t hold back because of how aggressively and mean-spiritedly you behave whenever you disagree with someone on this stuff, so spare me the false outrage.  I have you on ignore most of the time because I don’t like talking to folks this way even when, as in your case, I believe they richly deserve it.

I don’t say any of this as a personal attack, I’m just stating the facts as I see them.  I don’t expect you to agree.  In any case, if you don’t want the part, then don’t audition for it; know what I mean?  It has nothing to do with your views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and everything to do with how you talk about anti-semitism, especially your tone when doing so.

You are falsely equating criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism

I've also had plenty of substantive discourse in my time on this forum.

Basically he doesn't like my tone, but can't point to a single example of me actually being the bigot he claims. Also why did he do the post and delete? Weird.

[pppolitics]

Mr. X has also accused me of antisemitism with no evidence, and has called me a self hating Jew. The fact that he resorts to such nasty personal attacks is sickening.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it may just be a duck.  If you don’t want people to think you might be a self-hating Jew, maybe don’t display rabid, foaming at the mouth contempt for the idea that anti-Semitism is a bad and dangerous thing.  I call them as I see them and I take folks as they come.  You’re not here to play nice or have substantive discourse nor have you ever been.  You’re here to draw blood on anyone who disagrees with you and you’ve never hesitated to go scorched earth to achieve this goal without provocation.  

As such, the gloves come off when we butt heads.  I give my unvarnished opinion of you and I don’t hold back because of how aggressively and mean-spiritedly you behave whenever you disagree with someone on this stuff, so spare me the false outrage.  I have you on ignore most of the time because I don’t like talking to folks this way even when, as in your case, I believe they richly deserve it.

I don’t say any of this as a personal attack, I’m just stating the facts as I see them.  I don’t expect you to agree.  In any case, if you don’t want the part, then don’t audition for it; know what I mean?  It has nothing to do with your views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and everything to do with how you talk about anti-semitism, especially your tone when doing so.

You are falsely equating criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism

I've also had plenty of substantive discourse in my time on this forum.

Basically he doesn't like my tone, but can't point to a single example of me actually being the bigot he claims. Also why did he do the post and delete? Weird.

It most certainly violates the forum's rules, which isn't a good look coming from a moderator.

[patzer]

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-775777

These sort of things spell the end for Hamas. Basically, the IDF will give no credibility to any or all of the people in Gaza pretending to be from UN related functions.

Cannot wait to see what Egypt and Jordan say after this war about their lack of co-operation and help for the basic Palestinians on the ground.

Unfortunately Egypt and Jordan, like the UN, are unlikely to be held accountable. There are many examples of the UN being institutionally antisemitic (e.g. Unesco erasing Jewish history in Israel) but as long as people do not wish to hold them accountable, they won't be.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Mr. X has also accused me of antisemitism with no evidence, and has called me a self hating Jew. The fact that he resorts to such nasty personal attacks is sickening.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it may just be a duck.  If you don’t want people to think you might be a self-hating Jew, maybe don’t display rabid, foaming at the mouth contempt for the idea that anti-Semitism is a bad and dangerous thing.  I call them as I see them and I take folks as they come.  You’re not here to play nice or have substantive discourse nor have you ever been.  You’re here to draw blood on anyone who disagrees with you and you’ve never hesitated to go scorched earth to achieve this goal without provocation.  

As such, the gloves come off when we butt heads.  I give my unvarnished opinion of you and I don’t hold back because of how aggressively and mean-spiritedly you behave whenever you disagree with someone on this stuff, so spare me the false outrage.  I have you on ignore most of the time because I don’t like talking to folks this way even when, as in your case, I believe they richly deserve it.

I don’t say any of this as a personal attack, I’m just stating the facts as I see them.  I don’t expect you to agree.  In any case, if you don’t want the part, then don’t audition for it; know what I mean?  It has nothing to do with your views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and everything to do with how you talk about anti-semitism, especially your tone when doing so.

You are falsely equating criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism

I've also had plenty of substantive discourse in my time on this forum.

Basically he doesn't like my tone, but can't point to a single example of me actually being the bigot he claims. Also why did he do the post and delete? Weird.

I fat-thumbed it by accident.

Mr. X has also accused me of antisemitism with no evidence, and has called me a self hating Jew. The fact that he resorts to such nasty personal attacks is sickening.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it may just be a duck.  If you don’t want people to think you might be a self-hating Jew, maybe don’t display rabid, foaming at the mouth contempt for the idea that anti-Semitism is a bad and dangerous thing.  I call them as I see them and I take folks as they come.  You’re not here to play nice or have substantive discourse nor have you ever been.  You’re here to draw blood on anyone who disagrees with you and you’ve never hesitated to go scorched earth to achieve this goal without provocation.  

As such, the gloves come off when we butt heads.  I give my unvarnished opinion of you and I don’t hold back because of how aggressively and mean-spiritedly you behave whenever you disagree with someone on this stuff, so spare me the false outrage.  I have you on ignore most of the time because I don’t like talking to folks this way even when, as in your case, I believe they richly deserve it.

I don’t say any of this as a personal attack, I’m just stating the facts as I see them.  I don’t expect you to agree.  In any case, if you don’t want the part, then don’t audition for it; know what I mean?  It has nothing to do with your views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and everything to do with how you talk about anti-semitism, especially your tone when doing so.

I could dig up specific examples, Horus, but why waste time when you’re only here to post in substance-free bad-faith?

Mr. X has also accused me of antisemitism with no evidence, and has called me a self hating Jew. The fact that he resorts to such nasty personal attacks is sickening.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it may just be a duck.  If you don’t want people to think you might be a self-hating Jew, maybe don’t display rabid, foaming at the mouth contempt for the idea that anti-Semitism is a bad and dangerous thing.  I call them as I see them and I take folks as they come.  You’re not here to play nice or have substantive discourse nor have you ever been.  You’re here to draw blood on anyone who disagrees with you and you’ve never hesitated to go scorched earth to achieve this goal without provocation.  

As such, the gloves come off when we butt heads.  I give my unvarnished opinion of you and I don’t hold back because of how aggressively and mean-spiritedly you behave whenever you disagree with someone on this stuff, so spare me the false outrage.  I have you on ignore most of the time because I don’t like talking to folks this way even when, as in your case, I believe they richly deserve it.

I don’t say any of this as a personal attack, I’m just stating the facts as I see them.  I don’t expect you to agree.  In any case, if you don’t want the part, then don’t audition for it; know what I mean?  It has nothing to do with your views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and everything to do with how you talk about anti-semitism, especially your tone when doing so.

You are falsely equating criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism

Imagine actually believing this

[Horus]

snip

I'm not sure what you think is bad faith. You have made outlandish statements about me being a self hating Jew and are now trying to call pppolitics a bigot even though he is only guilty of a. being overexcited and b. disagreeing with you.

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that you tend to operate with a guilty until proven innocent mentality. We saw this in 2020 when you supported Matt Lieberman until the bitter end because you were completely convinced that Rev. Warnock was a liar and had intentionally driven over his ex wife's foot. This is a scary and un-American trait.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

snip

I'm not sure what you think is bad faith. You have made outlandish statements about me being a self hating Jew and are now trying to call pppolitics a bigot even though he is only guilty of a. being overexcited and b. disagreeing with you.

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that you tend to operate with a guilty until proven innocent mentality. We saw this in 2020 when you supported Matt Lieberman until the bitter end because you were completely convinced that Rev. Warnock was a liar and had intentionally driven over his ex wife's foot. This is a scary and un-American trait.

I mean, that whole narrative of yours right there is a lie.  I briefly said Lieberman seemed like the least bad of several absolutely awful candidates, but switched to strongly supporting Warnock as soon as it became clear that the allegations about him running over his wife’s foot were debunked.  And I never particularly liked Matt Lieberman and had long ago stopped even nominally supporting him.  But you knew that already.  

P.S.: I am not trying to call ppprogress a bigot.  I am calling him an anti-Semitic bigot for aggressively cheerleading Hamas.

Anyway, done with this conversation for now.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Accusing anyone who doubts Israel is telling the unvarnished truth is not wanting to mass murder Jews.

This is true. There are plenty of people that doubt Israel about various things in good faith, and we should all be mindful of this.

However, it appears, at least to me, that pppolitics is not one of them.

We know this because back in this post a few pages ago, in this post, I asked pppolitics to clarify https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.msg9330289#msg9330289

my reading of your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing.

Is that an accurate reflection of your intentions, or did you mean to convey some other sort of message?

...

I hope you will clarify that you do NOT support Hamas and that you condemn their actions in which they have deliberately murdered civilians

Unfortunately pppolitics declined to do so, which would seem to indicate that pppolitics does in fact support Hamas' action in which they deliberately murdered civilians.

This does not necessarily mean that pppolitics "is wanting to mass murder Jews," in your words, because supporting mass murder does not necessarily mean that pppolitics would directly commit in murder him/herself. In other words, pppolitics appears to be a supporter of terrorism, but being a supporter is not necessarily the same thing as being an actual terrorist, though it certainly isn't good.

However, it does appear to imply that, as Chancellor Tanterterg said, pppolitics is "only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews)))."

If any of this is wrong, I would encourage pppolitics to correct the record.

[jaichind]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/25/world/middleeast/israel-economy-gaza-war.html

"Israel’s Economy Expected to Shrink 2% as War Sidelines Workers"

[CumbrianLefty]

Hamas is not winning the war, and any claims to the contrary are silly.

That doesn't mean Israel can't also lose in the longer run.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Unfortunately pppolitics declined to do so, which would seem to indicate that pppolitics does in fact support Hamas' action in which they deliberately murdered civilians.

This does not necessarily mean that pppolitics "is wanting to mass murder Jews," in your words, because supporting mass murder does not necessarily mean that pppolitics would directly commit in murder him/herself. In other words, pppolitics appears to be a supporter of terrorism, but being a supporter is not necessarily the same thing as being an actual terrorist, though it certainly isn't good.

However, it does appear to imply that, as Chancellor Tanterterg said, pppolitics is "only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews)))."

If any of this is wrong, I would encourage pppolitics to correct the record.

I can't speak for anyone else but my position is simple: Hamas are terrorists and the IDF are far worse than terrorists. They're currently engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing against an imprisoned and dispossessed indigenous population and have committed countless atrocities that make October 7th look like a professional military operation with minimal collateral damage. If the international community and Israel's American handlers refuse to act then the only alternative to prevent the extermination of the Gazans is for the IDF to receive a military humiliation at the hands of Hamas and the dozen other local militias. That isn't "support for terrorism" any more than supporting the Soviets over the Nazis makes you a "supporter of Stalinism".

https://twitter.com/lo_lifer/status/1739060665111794050

https://twitter.com/emrane/status/1738924584366129181

https://twitter.com/VarrockianG/status/1739354408033337428

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1739496938213441958

https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1738877182766633259

https://twitter.com/SanaSaeed/status/1739409445082587294

Calling people who have a problem with Israel's actions "self hating Jews" or "anti-semites" only serves to destroy the meaning of these terms. Every time you call a regular Jewish person who has a problem with ethnic cleansing an "anti-semite" you move the average person's perception of "anti-semite" from Hitler to people with a functioning moral compass. Israelis have a long history of using the entire diaspora as a human shield against criticism but they're going to bring enormous problems to us all if they're allowed to pretend that their fascist colonial state and all Jewish people are inseparable.

Hamas is not winning the war, and any claims to the contrary are silly.

That doesn't mean Israel can't also lose in the longer run.

I would have said the same a month ago but increasingly it does look like the IDF is unironically losing in Gaza somehow.

The Golani Brigade, generally agreed to be the best stormtroopers in the entire IDF, was forced to retreat from Gaza entirely after sustaining catastrophic casualties.  Israeli forces are still taking daily casualties from sectors they've claimed to have "secured" weeks ago like Jabalia, Shujaiya, Beit Hanoun and even the town of Juhor ad-Dik right next to the border fence. So either they were lying from the start about the extent of their gains to create an illusion of victory or they're actually getting pushed back forcibly by Hamas. Even the Israeli media, which to this point has been about as critical of the IDF as the German media was of the Wehrmacht in Stalingrad, has started to raise doubts as the timeline for "victory" projected by Israeli commanders has stretched out from "weeks" to "months if not years". It increasingly seems like Hamas followed the strategy of Sun Tzu in creating an appearance of weakness to lure Israeli forces deep into urban areas where they could be more easily ambushed and destroyed in detail.

Anyway, Hamas (and all the other resistance groups like the PFLP, DFLP, PIJ, etc) is a guerrilla force and guerrillas win when they aren't destroyed. Every indication seems to be that Hamas is nowhere near their breaking point and if they aren't destroyed then they're going to be the preeminent political force of the Palestinians as soon as the fighting winds down thanks to Israel's savage campaign of vengeance against a civilian population. The IDF lost on the defense, they lost the PR war and they're on track to lose on the offense too. Game, set, match.

[Vosem]

https://twitter.com/brightswordlol/status/1739696235680813131

The thing is that I don't even think Israel has lost the PR war in a clear-cut way; it's certainly gotten extremely negative news coverage, but polling is fine and the reactions of governments in democracies pretty strongly suggest they're more afraid of pro- than anti-Israel backlashes, which are also shown by election results. (One such backlash, in the Netherlands, did take place.) I don't think most Western support for Israel is of the nature that it can be eroded by hostile media coverage, no matter how shrill that coverage gets.

It's honestly unreal how bad Israeli PR is. Like "hasbara" and "Israel has hypnotized the world" is kind of a BS claim because actual Israeli PR and diplomacy is completely and utterly inept now. There's legitimately a crisis of competence in these sectors of the Israeli staet.

There's a sense in which this true and then a sense in which this isn't. Like, Palestine has taken 20 years of almost unbroken good media cycles in the US, and my understanding is that in Western Europe it's been even more, since at least the late 1980s or so. But at the end of that time the degree to which Israel is viewed positively by the American public (and -- I strongly suspect though I have less evidence for this -- the Western European public) has actually increased radically.

I think it is possible for a person to be perceptive enough to notice this, but sufficiently unsympathetic to ideological or religious justifications for Western support for Israel -- or just sufficiently deluded about various "apartheid state" claims -- to perceive a contradiction and say things like 'hypnosis'.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

https://twitter.com/VarrockianG/status/1739354408033337428

Anything else in this vile little collection of libelous tropes aside, my God. I'm convinced that the eliminationists want to force Israel to use its nukes simply so they can be proved right that the Jews will end the world.

[pppolitics]

Mr. X has also accused me of antisemitism with no evidence, and has called me a self hating Jew. The fact that he resorts to such nasty personal attacks is sickening.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it may just be a duck.  If you don’t want people to think you might be a self-hating Jew, maybe don’t display rabid, foaming at the mouth contempt for the idea that anti-Semitism is a bad and dangerous thing.  I call them as I see them and I take folks as they come.  You’re not here to play nice or have substantive discourse nor have you ever been.  You’re here to draw blood on anyone who disagrees with you and you’ve never hesitated to go scorched earth to achieve this goal without provocation.  

As such, the gloves come off when we butt heads.  I give my unvarnished opinion of you and I don’t hold back because of how aggressively and mean-spiritedly you behave whenever you disagree with someone on this stuff, so spare me the false outrage.  I have you on ignore most of the time because I don’t like talking to folks this way even when, as in your case, I believe they richly deserve it.

I don’t say any of this as a personal attack, I’m just stating the facts as I see them.  I don’t expect you to agree.  In any case, if you don’t want the part, then don’t audition for it; know what I mean?  It has nothing to do with your views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and everything to do with how you talk about anti-semitism, especially your tone when doing so.

You are falsely equating criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism

Imagine actually believing this

Zionists are the ones falsely equating criticisms of Israel with antisemitism.

This is hardly anything new.

[pppolitics]

Accusing anyone who doubts Israel is telling the unvarnished truth is not wanting to mass murder Jews.

This is true. There are plenty of people that doubt Israel about various things in good faith, and we should all be mindful of this.

However, it appears, at least to me, that pppolitics is not one of them.

We know this because back in this post a few pages ago, in this post, I asked pppolitics to clarify https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.msg9330289#msg9330289

my reading of your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing.

Is that an accurate reflection of your intentions, or did you mean to convey some other sort of message?

...

I hope you will clarify that you do NOT support Hamas and that you condemn their actions in which they have deliberately murdered civilians

Unfortunately pppolitics declined to do so, which would seem to indicate that pppolitics does in fact support Hamas' action in which they deliberately murdered civilians.

This does not necessarily mean that pppolitics "is wanting to mass murder Jews," in your words, because supporting mass murder does not necessarily mean that pppolitics would directly commit in murder him/herself. In other words, pppolitics appears to be a supporter of terrorism, but being a supporter is not necessarily the same thing as being an actual terrorist, though it certainly isn't good.

However, it does appear to imply that, as Chancellor Tanterterg said, pppolitics is "only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews)))."

If any of this is wrong, I would encourage pppolitics to correct the record.

Wait wait wait.

Are you saying that I support Hamas because I wrote “Hamas has won” in bold?

Talking about jumping to conclusions.

Israel said that it’s going to continue the war in Gaza until it wins.

My point is that this is nonsense because Hamas has already won (and Israel already lost).

Israel is continuing the war in Gaza to try to save face.

This has nothing to do with justice. Israel is just extracting revenge on civilians.

And just to be clear, I already said this before

Israel isn't fighting Hamas. It already lost.

Israel is just continuing to exact revenge on civilians to try to save face.

[Coldstream]

You can make plenty of moral high ground arguments about how Israel isn’t winning (if you care).

You can argue Israel is losing the propaganda ward (probably true, as much as it matters)

You can plausibly claim Israel’s actions will make it worse for them in the long run (I’d probably disagree, but it’s not impossible a more competent version of Hamas emerge or that there is some meaningful international fall out).

You cannot seriously claim Israel is losing the war militarily. Half of Gaza is occupied, the other half is in ruins. Hamas are on the run, either in exile or cowering in some tunnels.

It’s just cope at this point.

[Devils30]

Accusing anyone who doubts Israel is telling the unvarnished truth is not wanting to mass murder Jews.

This is true. There are plenty of people that doubt Israel about various things in good faith, and we should all be mindful of this.

However, it appears, at least to me, that pppolitics is not one of them.

We know this because back in this post a few pages ago, in this post, I asked pppolitics to clarify https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.msg9330289#msg9330289

my reading of your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing.

Is that an accurate reflection of your intentions, or did you mean to convey some other sort of message?

...

I hope you will clarify that you do NOT support Hamas and that you condemn their actions in which they have deliberately murdered civilians

Unfortunately pppolitics declined to do so, which would seem to indicate that pppolitics does in fact support Hamas' action in which they deliberately murdered civilians.

This does not necessarily mean that pppolitics "is wanting to mass murder Jews," in your words, because supporting mass murder does not necessarily mean that pppolitics would directly commit in murder him/herself. In other words, pppolitics appears to be a supporter of terrorism, but being a supporter is not necessarily the same thing as being an actual terrorist, though it certainly isn't good.

However, it does appear to imply that, as Chancellor Tanterterg said, pppolitics is "only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews)))."

If any of this is wrong, I would encourage pppolitics to correct the record.

Wait wait wait.

Are you saying that I support Hamas because I wrote “Hamas has won” in bold?

Talking about jumping to conclusions.

Israel said that it’s going to continue the war in Gaza until it wins.

My point is that this is nonsense because Hamas has already won (and Israel already lost).

Israel is continuing the war in Gaza to try to save face.

This has nothing to do with justice. Israel is just extracting revenge on civilians.

And just to be clear, I already said this before

Israel isn't fighting Hamas. It already lost.

Israel is just continuing to exact revenge on civilians to try to save face.

You are a leftist thug, plain and simple.

[patzer]

I can't speak for anyone else but my position is simple: Hamas are terrorists and the IDF are far worse than terrorists. They're currently engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing against an imprisoned and dispossessed indigenous population and have committed countless atrocities that make October 7th look like a professional military operation with minimal collateral damage. If the international community and Israel's American handlers refuse to act then the only alternative to prevent the extermination of the Gazans is for the IDF to receive a military humiliation at the hands of Hamas and the dozen other local militias. That isn't "support for terrorism" any more than supporting the Soviets over the Nazis makes you a "supporter of Stalinism".

I have an honest question for people pushing the "ethnic cleansing" angle. The Gaza Strip is mostly made up of refugee camps, and even though the people have been there for a long time now, they don't identify with it as a permanent home but instead as temporary camps where they are living until they can return to Israel (hence the name "camp" in most of the neighbourhoods of Gaza). In 2015, over 70% of the population of the Gaza Strip was registered with the UNRWA as refugees.

Generally the very nature of a refugee camp is that it is temporary and that resettling the refugees in long-term accommodation is a goal. After all, having over two million people living in a tiny refugee camp is hardly sustainable long term. So even if people end up having to leave the Gaza refugee camp for long term accommodation in other countries willing to take them in, how is that any different to the dismantling of the Calais Jungle?

[Vosem]

Accusing anyone who doubts Israel is telling the unvarnished truth is not wanting to mass murder Jews.

This is true. There are plenty of people that doubt Israel about various things in good faith, and we should all be mindful of this.

However, it appears, at least to me, that pppolitics is not one of them.

We know this because back in this post a few pages ago, in this post, I asked pppolitics to clarify https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.msg9330289#msg9330289

my reading of your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing.

Is that an accurate reflection of your intentions, or did you mean to convey some other sort of message?

...

I hope you will clarify that you do NOT support Hamas and that you condemn their actions in which they have deliberately murdered civilians

Unfortunately pppolitics declined to do so, which would seem to indicate that pppolitics does in fact support Hamas' action in which they deliberately murdered civilians.

This does not necessarily mean that pppolitics "is wanting to mass murder Jews," in your words, because supporting mass murder does not necessarily mean that pppolitics would directly commit in murder him/herself. In other words, pppolitics appears to be a supporter of terrorism, but being a supporter is not necessarily the same thing as being an actual terrorist, though it certainly isn't good.

However, it does appear to imply that, as Chancellor Tanterterg said, pppolitics is "only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews)))."

If any of this is wrong, I would encourage pppolitics to correct the record.

Wait wait wait.

Are you saying that I support Hamas because I wrote “Hamas has won” in bold?

Talking about jumping to conclusions.

Israel said that it’s going to continue the war in Gaza until it wins.

My point is that this is nonsense because Hamas has already won (and Israel already lost).

Israel is continuing the war in Gaza to try to save face.

This has nothing to do with justice. Israel is just extracting revenge on civilians.

And just to be clear, I already said this before

Israel isn't fighting Hamas. It already lost.

Israel is just continuing to exact revenge on civilians to try to save face.

Hamas members have not succeeded at saving the other parts of their bodies. Or, y'know, their political agenda, since Palestinian statehood is further away than ever.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Wait wait wait.

Are you saying that I support Hamas because I wrote “Hamas has won” in bold?

No, I was saying that the fact it was bold, combined with the fact that it was in large font with an exclamation mark made it appear that you were happy about it ("your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing"). Or in other words, as Chancellor Tanterterg put it, you were "cheerlead(ing) the mass murder of (((Jews)))."

Surely you can see how someone reading in good faith would interpret that as the intended message from this:

Let's stop beating around the bushes and say the obvious:

Hamas has won!

It appears to be a celebratory post.

Talking about jumping to conclusions.

Israel said that it’s going to continue the war in Gaza until it wins.

My point is that this is nonsense because Hamas has already won (and Israel already lost).

Israel is continuing the war in Gaza to try to save face.

This has nothing to do with justice. Israel is just extracting revenge on civilians.

And just to be clear, I already said this before

Israel isn't fighting Hamas. It already lost.

Israel is just continuing to exact revenge on civilians to try to save face.

OK. In the above, I still do not see you actually denying that you support Hamas. You cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge, as Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P! just did, that Hamas is a terrorist organization:

I can't speak for anyone else but my position is simple: Hamas are terrorists and the IDF are far worse than terrorists.

As Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P! just showed, you can do that while still being very critical of Israel. If what you really want is just to be harshly critical of Israel, you can do that, but that does not mean you need to resist condemning Hamas for what they objectively did - deliberately murder large numbers of civilians. Is that really the impression that you want to convey?

This ought to be a slam dunk for you. It should be easy for you to say "Of course I do not support Hamas" or at least "of course Hamas is a terrorist organization" (which at least carries the implication that Hamas is bad, because "terrorism" is generally taken to be a bad thing. If you did that, then you could say something like "see how reasonable I am, in contrast to these other people who cannot admit that Israel has ever done anything the slightest bit problematic."

Instead, by your deliberate avoidance of taking the easy dunk, you continue to convey the opposite impression.

[pppolitics]

You can make plenty of moral high ground arguments about how Israel isn’t winning (if you care).

You can argue Israel is losing the propaganda ward (probably true, as much as it matters)

You can plausibly claim Israel’s actions will make it worse for them in the long run (I’d probably disagree, but it’s not impossible a more competent version of Hamas emerge or that there is some meaningful international fall out).

You cannot seriously claim Israel is losing the war militarily. Half of Gaza is occupied, the other half is in ruins. Hamas are on the run, either in exile or cowering in some tunnels.

It’s just cope at this point.

It's clear that the people who are claiming that I am antisemitic don't actually read my comments because they keep pointing out things that I've already addressed.

Let's stop beating around the bushes and say the obvious:

Hamas has won!

Hamas knows that it can't beat Israel militarily, so it baited Israel into committing genocide for the entire world to see.

Israel is now more isolated than ever and every terrorist killed will be replaced with 10 new ones.