Israel-Gaza war

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

This poll (or ones like it) will end up in history books, I bet.

Was there ever a nation in war, a real war, where the citizens cared much for enemy citizens?

In the modern era, there have been plenty where they told themselves they did.

[Alben Barkley]

Bernie Sanders is refusing to call for a ceasefire, rather a "humanitarian pause" to get supplies into Gaza but he refuses to outright call for the conflict to cease despite immense pressure from the left:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders

I think he's doing the right thing, of course -- in fact the EXACTLY right thing as my position is practically identical to his on this matter. I will give credit where it's due, and he certainly is doing better than the Squad and even Dick Durbin on this. But I do find it interesting he's not apparently facing as much flak for this stance as mainstream Dems including Biden who have taken essentially the same position.

[WalterWhite]

I do not trust that poll a single bit; polling regarding public perception on Israel-Gaza has been...dogsh*t...to say the least.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

But I do find it interesting he's not apparently facing as much flak for this stance as mainstream Dems including Biden who have taken essentially the same position.

Their positions are not the same, but calling for a ceasefire by another name has caught him plenty of flak (for instance, he was in the Onion’s rogues’ gallery of politicians considered too pro-Israel).

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Bernie Sanders is refusing to call for a ceasefire, rather a "humanitarian pause" to get supplies into Gaza but he refuses to outright call for the conflict to cease despite immense pressure from the left:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders

I think he's doing the right thing, of course -- in fact the EXACTLY right thing as my position is practically identical to his on this matter. I will give credit where it's due, and he certainly is doing better than the Squad and even Dick Durbin on this. But I do find it interesting he's not apparently facing as much flak for this stance as mainstream Dems including Biden who have taken essentially the same position.

Bernie has always been too pro-Israel.

[Alben Barkley]

But I do find it interesting he's not apparently facing as much flak for this stance as mainstream Dems including Biden who have taken essentially the same position.

Their positions are not the same, but calling for a ceasefire by another name has caught him plenty of flak (for instance, he was in the Onion’s rogues’ gallery of politicians considered too pro-Israel).

Bernie Sanders is refusing to call for a ceasefire, rather a "humanitarian pause" to get supplies into Gaza but he refuses to outright call for the conflict to cease despite immense pressure from the left:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders

I think he's doing the right thing, of course -- in fact the EXACTLY right thing as my position is practically identical to his on this matter. I will give credit where it's due, and he certainly is doing better than the Squad and even Dick Durbin on this. But I do find it interesting he's not apparently facing as much flak for this stance as mainstream Dems including Biden who have taken essentially the same position.

Bernie has always been too pro-Israel.

1. It's almost like he's Jewish or something and therefore understands why it's so important for Jewish people to have their own state.

2. I didn't realize we were taking The Onion seriously now. I guess that makes sense considering reality is more absurd than any pre-2016 Onion articles ever were.

3. Yes, both Biden and Sanders have called for a "humanitarian pause" so their positions are essentially the same.

[Birdish]

I truly hope something positive comes from this. With both Hamas and Netanyahu gone at the end of the war(god willing), maybe there can be some type of progress towards a two state solution.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

2. I didn't realize we were taking The Onion seriously now. I guess that makes sense considering reality is more absurd than any pre-2016 Onion articles ever were.

I don't, but it's one of the indicators showing he's getting blowback. Not as much as the president - because he's not the president - but as much as other Democrats of similar prominence with similar positions on the conflict.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

I sent Senator AFE and moderator KoppaDaQuick personal messages that they should be ashamed of themselves for openly supporting the terrorists of Hamas. Instead, they should support Israel and the Jewish People, who have been encircled and oppressed and killed for centuries by various enemies and who have every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas terrorists, now and forever!

Hey bud, if I "support" Hamas as you baselessly accuse me of, show me any one of my posts here where I do. I'll wait.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

It's kind of astonishing how hard Israel lost the propaganda war. They clearly haven't handled the transition from 20th to 21st century media very well, whereas Hamas is on point: nothing but Israeli atrocities against civilians and Hamas attacks against military targets. It's a one-two rhetorical punch for the whole Islamic world, something like "here's why you should hate Israel" followed by "and here's how easily we could beat them if we fought back"

https://twitter.com/samknight1/status/1720873179638321263

On the military front the IDF seems to be sending in vehicles with zero infantry support (or the infantry are all hiding in the vehicles), a strategy pioneered by Russia at Grozny. As a consequence, Hamas fighters are able to freely pop out of bushes behind them and sprint right up to plant IEDs

https://twitter.com/HistoryLegends_/status/1720504879888687137

[Vosem]

It's kind of astonishing how hard Israel lost the propaganda war. They clearly haven't handled the transition from 20th to 21st century media very well

1992: 45% of Americans support Israel
2022: 75% of Americans support Israel

What planet are you coming from? Israel only really started winning the propaganda war in the 21st century. The whole narrative which tries to emphasize that Palestine is morally superior to Israel because Israel bombs hospitals and refugee camps has been a dramatic failure everywhere.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Vosem is spot on. There are two real issues.

Firstly, the media in 2023 is strongly left wing compared to 20, or even 10 years ago. ABC Australia is a classic example of super woke media outlet now.

Every story starts with:

'Netanyahu refuses..."
"Gazan Hospital Strike..."
"Doubt over Israel..."

For example, ABC Australia would not publish a picture of the night the Opera House was lit up with the Israeli flag. They found that to be insensitive to Palestinian Australians.

The ABC stories online now for Palestine are in full swing:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-05/israel-gaza-war-latest-updates-un-school-ceasefire/103065914

"Thousands of Israeli protesters call for Netanyahu's resignation as Arab leaders demand immediate ceasefire"

and a pro-Jordan pro-Palestinian story:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-05/jordan-s-royals-are-walking-a-delicate-diplomatic-tightrope/103039792

"Denouncing the Israel-Gaza war, the king and queen of Jordan are walking a delicate diplomatic tightrope"


Analysts say Queen Rania may have felt compelled to speak out, in part, due to her personal connection to the Palestinian people. (Royal Hashemite Court via Reuters)

"So the silence is deafening — and to many in our region, it makes the Western world complicit."

Mr Riedel said the Queen's interview was "extraordinary".

"I've never seen Rania so outspoken, so emotional about any issue before," he said.

The ABC are in love with this woman, but will never correct numbers they get it wrong as they are fed by the Hamas media machine.

Al Jazeera is another one that, since October 7, has switched totally anti-Israel.

Israel cannot change these media organisations.

The IDF media machine is clearly biased the other way, but they do highlight some interesting developments, ones you will never see in the mainstream media.

Secondly, the silent majority of the World understand, including people in Arab countries that Hamas will now be dismantled.

Nearly all protests will be Palestinian protests. Nearly all video from Gaza will be dead people being pulled from the rubble. Biden and Blinken will say they dont want a cease fire but a brief pause to help the civilians etc.

That does not mean that people support Hamas.

In Australasia, the numbers of people who support Israel would be much higher than what Vosem quoted for the USA, much higher.

[It’s so Joever]

I spoke with my mother today on this issue, to keep very important context, Israel and Judaism is held in very high esteem in our family even though we aren’t Jewish ourselves. My grandmother did a lot of work with what little remained of the Jewish community in Sarajevo during Yugoslav times and those connections are said to have helped her escape the siege a couple years early. Keep in mind at the time the host family for my mother (who was basically a stranded foreign exchange student that got “stuck” in America due to the war) also is Jewish, and yeah we still consider eachother kinda family in a way after all these years lol.
For years she has been a STAUNCH advocate of a Jewish state and did obviously reaffirm that today. However, she strongly condemned the current government and believes they have no care for either Israeli nor Palestinian people and is concerned about the situation and thinks both sides are run by terrible people at this point (she is right)

This is much more anecdotal but she should be the last person to change opinion, or even soften and yet it does seem like there is a shift. This combined with several Atlas posters (and myself to an extent) having shifted their opinions should at least show there is indeed some movement. I know the big brain genius who thinks Americans hate social security is gonna be all “hurr durr polls from a year ago prove you wrong lol! also pls ignore recent polls that show otherwise k thx but still putting it out there.

In other news there was a massive pro-Palestine protest here in DC today, my mother and I were doing other things but did walk by a few heading over that direction with some flags. Then again we get protests all the time so that’s not so exciting. Yet another group of poorly informed people trying to make themselves look like they care when they really don’t. Their “From the River to the Sea” signs are downright dangerous.

[Comrade Funk]

Wow shoehorned wokeism in that screed

[It’s so Joever]

Vosem is spot on. There are two real issues.

Firstly, the media in 2023 is strongly left wing compared to 20, or even 10 years ago. ABC Australia is a classic example of super woke media outlet now.

Every story starts with:

'Netanyahu refuses..."
"Gazan Hospital Strike..."
"Doubt over Israel..."

Their wokism took 2 weeks to return after October 7, and now they are back in full swing:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-05/israel-gaza-war-latest-updates-un-school-ceasefire/103065914

"Thousands of Israeli protesters call for Netanyahu's resignation as Arab leaders demand immediate ceasefire"

and a pro-Jordan story:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-05/jordan-s-royals-are-walking-a-delicate-diplomatic-tightrope/103039792

"Denouncing the Israel-Gaza war, the king and queen of Jordan are walking a delicate diplomatic tightrope"

But the ABC will never correct numbers they get wrong as they are fed by the Hamsa media machine.

Al Jazeera is another one that, since October 7, has switched totally anti-Israel.

The IDF media machine is clearly biased the other way, but they do highlight some interesting developments, ones you will never see in the mainstream media.

Secondly, the silent majority of the World understand, including people in Arab countries that Hamas will now be obliterated.

Nearly all protests will be Palestinian protests. Nearly all video from Gaza will be dead people being pulled from the rubble. Biden and Blinken will say they want a cease fire. Blah, blah, blah.

That does not mean that people support Hamas.

In Australasia, the numbers of people who support Israel would be much higher than what Vosem quoted for the USA, much higher.

No you commies are the woke ones trying to force news stations to not report on actual events and instead inject your own political agenda into things. You are so woke you want media to just say “Israel good” like an NPC, go get some new talking points sheep!

[Meclazine for Israel]

Do not, under any circumstances, accuse posters of being terrorist sympathisers without any justification.

Okay, for this I must apologize, but they tell me in the personal messages that Israel is engaging in colonialism and bombards Gaza hospitals.

Yeah, Koopa Da Quick is pretty cool. You had that guy wrong.

You can support Palestine, and that is perfectly fine, without supporting Hamas.

I don't think anyone on this forum would be pro-Hamas. I think Laki was the only one who celebrated the Hamas attack live on October 7, but he soon deleted his posts.

[Vosem]

This is much more anecdotal but she should be the last person to change opinion, or even soften and yet it does seem like there is a shift. This combined with several Atlas posters (and myself to an extent) having shifted their opinions should at least show there is indeed some movement. I know the big brain genius who thinks Americans hate social security is gonna be all “hurr durr polls from a year ago prove you wrong lol! also pls ignore recent polls that show otherwise k thx but still putting it out there.

Wait, like what polls? I've been pretty open about "some evidence says support peaked around 2018", but I don't think there are any polls showing support down even to GWB-era levels in the United States. At an international level I think Israel has basically never seen the current level of support, or at least non-hostility, from either Europe or other Middle Eastern countries.

(As with the international law stuff, I'm the only one in this thread citing actual polls/international law, and everyone else is talking out of their asses.)

I think the idea that there is a large activist-left contingent, which has not liked Israel in decades and among whom opinions are getting more negative, is certainly true. How much this matters is hard to say: for a while I did not think 'woke' was real, on the grounds that for issues where we've had polling for a long time 'wokeism' if anything got weaker over the 2010s (for example affirmative action became less rather than more popular in spite of intersectionality becoming an important phenomenon in the culture, and was ultimately banned). Nevertheless the number of weird symbolic victories woke culture had, where public opinion didn't care enough to overrule them, was enormous.

I think, more generally, the whole narrative that the media playing up hospital strikes causes support for Israel to decline is wrong, because this does not fit the historical country-favorability record at all, whether for Israel or any other US ally. In the past, periods where the media emphasized this correspnded to periods when support for Israel rose.

~~

In general, I think issue polling is often flawed, and referendum data contradicts it often enough that we can always take it with a grain of salt. I don't think "actually lots of people support Palestine" would make a lot of sense given the general pattern -- it tends to be right-wing cultural stuff like guns and not raising taxes on the wealthy that get hugely underestimated -- but it is not impossible; it isn't like we get referendums on foreign policy. (We do get votes on campuses, where, at least at Ohio State, Israel hit a nadir around 2015 and has since improved, but where the general trend varies from institution to institution and at some is pretty bad. I don't think Israel's continued competitiveness suggests that this is even a settled issue on the very far-left, though.)

As for Social Security, it's a very popular program; polls say that privatizing it is an unpopular suggestion. That said, we've already had one national campaign running on that which won (Bush '04), and since then fiscal conservatives have become more extreme across-the-board, so it feels very weird to suggest, as Scott does, that a campaign with that stance could never win. Based on other countries' experiences I also doubt it would be very unpopular in practice.

No you commies are the woke ones trying to force news stations to not report on actual events and instead inject your own political agenda into things. You are so woke you want media to just say “Israel good” like an NPC, go get some new talking points sheep!

I don't think anyone has to do that, but any coverage of the conflict that doesn't emphasize that...

1) Palestinian political parties say they want to genocide their enemies, and Israeli political parties (...except Otzma) say they want to live in peace;
2) This round of fighting and several of the preceding ones started because of attacks on civilians from Palestinian political parties (and 'attacks on civilians by Palestinian political parties' include summary executions of Palestinians trying to flee warzones, or who disagree with fighting wars against Israel);
3) Under international law the whole area belongs to Israel, and the existence of the Palestinian political parties is because of pressure from the international community, in particular 'news' and 'human rights' organizations;
4) Accusations of Israel breaking the laws of war are not credible;

...is doing news consumers a disservice by not showing things as they really are.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The Military Show

Israeli Iron Dome System

https://youtu.be/1yXKTXPNN1g

A detailed look at where $4.5 Bn of US tax payers dollars will be going in the next 6-12 months.

Thanks to each and every one of the US workers who are financially supporting this defence system for Israel.

[Horus]

Bruh.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884?t=lBcBa13yzPZsPl0W...

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Bruh.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884?t=lBcBa13yzPZsPl0W...

Obviously Israel would be a total pariah state if they used one. Do they have tactical nukes? Because a normal sized nuke is going to do significant damage to Israel too, seeing as the furthest part of Gaza is something like 8 miles from Israel. Also, is this the first official confirmation as to Israel being a nuclear power?

[EastwoodS]

Bruh.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884?t=lBcBa13yzPZsPl0W...

That would start World War 3

[Horus]

Bruh.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884?t=lBcBa13yzPZsPl0W...

Obviously Israel would be a total pariah state if they used one. Do they have tactical nukes? Because a normal sized nuke is going to do significant damage to Israel too, seeing as the furthest part of Gaza is something like 8 miles from Israel. Also, is this the first official confirmation as to Israel being a nuclear power?

I think so. Bibi is pissed and claims the minister is crazy, but I think he's more upset that this Eliyahu guy said the quiet part out loud in regards to both having nukes and possible plans to use one.

[jaichind]

Bruh.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884?t=lBcBa13yzPZsPl0W...

He has to be talking about a tactical nuke.  A large nuclear weapon dropped in Gaza will kill almost as many Israelis as Palestinians.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Bruh.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884?t=lBcBa13yzPZsPl0W...

He has to be talking about a tactical nuke.  A large nuclear weapon dropped in Gaza will kill almost as many Israelis as Palestinians.

Yeah.
Would still be stupid though.

[windjammer]

I sent Senator AFE and moderator KoppaDaQuick personal messages that they should be ashamed of themselves for openly supporting the terrorists of Hamas. Instead, they should support Israel and the Jewish People, who have been encircled and oppressed and killed for centuries by various enemies and who have every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas terrorists, now and forever!

Hey bud, if I "support" Hamas as you baselessly accuse me of, show me any one of my posts here where I do.

For the record in my case I don't believe you are supporting what Hamas is doing. However you're supporting a ceasefire. So you give them a free pass for what they have done. Like for you they can abduct civilians, rape them, decapitate them and Israel cannot destroy them and some kind of ceasefire should be imposed so Hamas will nicely be able to do the same thing in a few months/few years.


You really don't see how this ceasefire you want it to be implemented is going to make Hamas survive do you?