Israel-Gaza war

[Birdish]

https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1714366327538794512

https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1714364190985458105
I maintained an open mind, until now. There's still a possibility it was something else, but if they're going to lie and use a video of another launch, I'm somewhat more inclined to believe the IDF was responsible.

He posted an update about getting the time from a Youtube account.

Couldn't it just be the Youtube account was off?

Regardless, the video was removed from the IDF tweet, so who even knows.

[Ferguson97]

They are biased against wealthy societies (and people) and in favor of poorer societies (and people) very broadly. The bias in favor of the Palestinians is just a particularly galling and obvious case study of this.

Are you under some sort of witch’s curse that makes you say the opposite of whatever the truth is? How can we help you break the spell?

[pppolitics]

At least 500 killed in Israeli airstrike on Gaza City hospital, Gaza Health Ministry says

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-17/israeli-bombings-gaza-kill-dozens-aid-still-stalled

Israel probably wants to see how many war crimes that it can get away with

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

At least 500 killed in Israeli airstrike on Gaza City hospital, Gaza Health Ministry says

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-10-17/israeli-bombings-gaza-kill-dozens-aid-still-stalled

Israel probably wants to see how many war crimes that it can get away with

We've been discussing this for the past two hours. As someone who has similar views to you on Israel/Palestine I have to say that you've contributed basically nothing to this thread.

[Unbeatable Titan Susan Collins]

Snowstalker - "You rubes shouldn't believe everything the IDF says."

Also Snowstalker- "Look what this rando anti-Israel guy on twitter said. We must take it as absolute fact,"

[Vosem]

They are biased against wealthy societies (and people) and in favor of poorer societies (and people) very broadly. The bias in favor of the Palestinians is just a particularly galling and obvious case study of this.

Are you under some sort of witch’s curse that makes you say the opposite of whatever the truth is? How can we help you break the spell?

I’ve been saying pretty much these things, and active in organizations promoting it, for well over a decade! (There’s a piece out there I need to find debunking The Spirit Level literally sentence-by-sentence. We’ll know society is over these kinds of biases when no one finds it remotely plausible that inequality is a cause of poverty or low living standards. The Israel/Palestine stuff is just downstream of that; of course if one side has very sophisticated rockets and the other side is throwing stones, the guilty party in their interaction must be the first side.)

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/gaza_report/status/1714335125570191370?s=20

https://twitter.com/gaza_report/status/1714337523592208695?s=20

https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1714339337532555693?s=20

You have to be really gullible to believe that this was an accident.

[GALeftist]

I am obviously not an expert on this by any means but I am finding myself increasingly skeptical of the "rocket misfire" narrative for a couple reasons:

1. That deletion of the missile attack video seems suspicious. Why use such an obviously wrong clip, why keep it up on the Hebrew tweet but not on the Hebrew tweet, and, most importantly, why *isn't* there video of the correct missile attack?

2. I initially thought that the narrative was that PIJ was firing missiles from the hospital, accidentally set a fire, and one or more missiles exploded (both its warhead and its fuel), which itself detonated the ammo deposit. This seemed plausible. Now it appears the allegation is that *one* missile accidentally hit not only the hospital, but also pretty close to the ammo deposit within the hospital, since these missiles usually only kill, like, 7 people per missile, misfire or not. This obviously isn't impossible, but it seems a hell of a lot more likely that Israel just bombed the hospital (it's not like they never do this).

[Vosem]

It does get frustrating that western news organizations quote "Palestinian Health Officials" verbatim, even though its a Hamas spokesman. If the IDF is correct and the Hospital was hit with Hamas rockets, then it's been almost 2 hours of multiple news websites top headline essentially being "IDF blows up hospital, kills 100s of innocent civilians".

There are currently multiple violet protests happening in the middle east right now because of this. Even more people are going to be killed. All for what could be a horrific accident.

Imagine thinking Western media is biased against Israel. Just lmao. Boy do I wish we had emojis so I could fill this post up with even more laughs.

I think this is a very standard and normal opinion among vaguely right-leaning, or just pro-Israel, people who follow politics. (The thing specific to me, which I have to imagine is an experience very few have had, is that I’ve taken college courses where “Western media is biased against Israel” was presented as uncontroversial fact to teach students about the concept of media bias generally.)

[Gass3268]

Really hard to trust any local media source on this.

[Vosem]

2. I initially thought that the narrative was that PIJ was firing missiles from the hospital, accidentally set a fire, and one or more missiles exploded (both its warhead and its fuel), which itself detonated the ammo deposit. This seemed plausible. Now it appears the allegation is that *one* missile accidentally hit not only the hospital, but also pretty close to the ammo deposit within the hospital, since these missiles usually only kill, like, 7 people per missile, misfire or not. This obviously isn't impossible, but it seems a hell of a lot more likely that Israel just bombed the hospital (it's not like they never do this).

I mean, they legitimately don't just level buildings with hundreds of civilian casualties, but either way it seems nobody is disputing "there was a depot in the hospital and it blew up", which I think is sufficient to assign blame.

[Sestak]

No side is disputing this theory that "actually the hospital was a secret disguise for rocket launchers" because no one is alleging it other than a manaic republican Talk Elections poster from Ohio.

[Silent Hunter]

I mean, they legitimately don't just level buildings with hundreds of civilian casualties, but either way it seems nobody is disputing "there was a depot in the hospital and it blew up", which I think is sufficient to assign blame.

Possibly the Israelis struck something in the hospital and caused a much bigger explosion than they'd anticipated.

It's common for warships to be sunk not from the initial impact of the missile but a fire causing the magazines to explode. That's why firefighting is a key part of all sailors' training.

[Birdish]

Really hard to trust any local media source on this.

Honestly. Water is sufficiently muddy enough where both sides will just blame each other.

[Anti-Trump Truth Socialite JD Vance Enjoying Juror]

If this explosion was actually caused by Israel (or even worse, was deliberately caused), I don't see how they could possibly retain international support. Hell, they have to worry about a revolution in the West Bank and war on 3 or more fronts at that point (Hezbollah+Iran+West Bank involvement).

[DavidB.]

So the pro-Hamas side claims Israel did it, the pro-Israel side claims Palestinian terror groups did it and no one will change their minds. But the hatred will intensify, the war will intensify and many more people will die. I think it's time to log off and take a break from following all of this.

[pppolitics]

If this explosion was actually caused by Israel (or even worse, was deliberately caused), I don't see how they could possibly retain international support. Hell, they have to worry about a revolution in the West Bank and war on 3 or more fronts at that point (Hezbollah+Iran+West Bank involvement).

Have you learned nothing?

Israel can commit all the war crimes it wants and still retain US support.

[Vosem]

No side is disputing this theory that "actually the hospital was a secret disguise for rocket launchers" because no one is alleging it other than a manaic republican Talk Elections poster from Ohio.

It is widely reported that Hamas uses hospitals and schools as bases. (First page Google Results for "hamas hospitals bases", "hamas schools bases". Some of these are Israeli sources, but some are The Guardian.)

Come on! "Hamas uses hospitals to launch attacks" is, like, the first thing that anybody learns about this conflict. I guess to some it's presented as "false Israeli narrative", but everybody's heard it. It's literally common knowledge and goes without saying.

[Unbeatable Titan Susan Collins]

I am obviously not an expert on this by any means but I am finding myself increasingly skeptical of the "rocket misfire" narrative for a couple reasons:

1. That deletion of the missile attack video seems suspicious. Why use such an obviously wrong clip, why keep it up on the Hebrew tweet but not on the Hebrew tweet, and, most importantly, why *isn't* there video of the correct missile attack?

2. I initially thought that the narrative was that PIJ was firing missiles from the hospital, accidentally set a fire, and one or more missiles exploded (both its warhead and its fuel), which itself detonated the ammo deposit. This seemed plausible. Now it appears the allegation is that *one* missile accidentally hit not only the hospital, but also pretty close to the ammo deposit within the hospital, since these missiles usually only kill, like, 7 people per missile, misfire or not. This obviously isn't impossible, but it seems a hell of a lot more likely that Israel just bombed the hospital (it's not like they never do this).

1. I would caution from any videos frankley. The exact timing of this strike is not well known. Hamas (or other palestinian sources) don't appear to have a good video proving their point. People saying it doesn't match up timewise, don't have a verified source for the exact timing of the bombing.

2.  The initial narrative you speak of, seems to have never been provided from any official israeli sources. and instead was speculation. The IDF statement is that it was the Islamic Jihad with a potential misfire. This has been their only statement on it. (They earlier in this very thread were attacked for not making a statement.)

What proof has Hamas provided?

[pppolitics]

Whoops!

https://twitter.com/MnarMuh/status/1714373915529613463

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

Ultimately, Palestinian liberationism will be defeated only when foreign sympathy for it is completely destroyed.

LMAO

The cause of Palestine will only die when the light of Islam is somehow and some way vanquished off the face of the Earth. Fortunately, that will never happen. EVER.

[Anti-Trump Truth Socialite JD Vance Enjoying Juror]

I have no idea if there actually are missiles stored at the hospital, I'd really like to see a source on that claim. But if there were, then an explosion of that size occurring "accidentally" is within the realm of possibility. There have been enough ammunition storage/magazine explosions in history to make that claim believable (Destruction of the Parthenon, Halifax Explosion, the Irish Public Records Office, USS Arizona, etc., etc.)

[Vosem]

I mean, they legitimately don't just level buildings with hundreds of civilian casualties, but either way it seems nobody is disputing "there was a depot in the hospital and it blew up", which I think is sufficient to assign blame.

Possibly the Israelis struck something in the hospital and caused a much bigger explosion than they'd anticipated.

It's common for warships to be sunk not from the initial impact of the missile but a fire causing the magazines to explode. That's why firefighting is a key part of all sailors' training.

The point is that nobody disputes that the explosion was much larger than a normal attack and this was caused by the explosion of a weapons cache on the ground, and nobody disputes who put it there. Whether it was caused by a Hamas misfire or an Israeli mis-targeting doesn't change who the blame falls to. That's why today's story is frustrating: there isn't a version of this story anyone has claimed where the blame doesn't go to Hamas, even if you just assume the least-sympathetic-to-Israel course of events.

[Silent Hunter]

Whoops!

https://twitter.com/MnarMuh/status/1714373915529613463

I somehow doubt he's sitting in the situation room.

[Lief 🗽]

This is supposedly from a Times of Israel reporter (though it is post-Musk Twitter so who knows). They have a few more videos in the follow up tweets.

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1714377828131553446?s=46&t=o2RmfeV6y...