Israel-Gaza war

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

It's almost as if Gaza's population and indeed Palestine's, is as heterogeneous in its political and sociological profile as Israel's.

Shocking for those who think Arabs have a hive mind, I know.

I don't know if this is directed at my post, but yes, obviously. My point is that the Israeli order to move a large amount of people in a short period of time is an order of a type which could only be obeyed universally with the collaboration of the local government, and not otherwise.

Not directed at you : I actually think you are clear sighted in your analysis of the ongoing events.

Out of curiosity, what do you feel about my postings on all this?

[Mr. Illini]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna120272

An independent UN investigation may be needed at this point. These are extremely serious claims and HRW is not some fringe organization.

They flat out admitted to using it in the 2008-09 conflict. I’m not aware of any charges having been filed.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1712676313901981888https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1712955500411900217

[Meclazine for Israel]

Brooks and Capehart

US Politics - Israeli Conflict

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB2ecyia35g

_____________

Peter Zeihan

Gaza-Israeli Conflict

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxXJOqqNFVM

_____________

Some first class analysis in a sea of dross and misinformation. For those who follow intelligent geopolitical opinion, Peter Zeihan makes approximately USD$1,000 per hour for his geopolitical commentary whilst his YouTube videos are hot. Advertisers pay more to be on the 'hot' videos, and this guy is red hot on YouTube at the moment.

Joe Biden did have a good week.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna120272

An independent UN investigation may be needed at this point. These are extremely serious claims and HRW is not some fringe organization.

They flat out admitted to using it in the 2008-09 conflict. I’m not aware of any charges having been filed.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

The HRW and Amnesty are liberal NGOs that take the State Department line on every other country but even they can't look the other way on Israel.

[Pericles]

A lot of dirt is coming out on Netanyahu already, the inquiry into it will surely be absolutely brutal. How could he have had his head so deep in the sand to miss all the signs?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Genuine question: obviously Hamas have always been a genocidal totalitarian terror cult, but were they always this bad or did the events of last weekend surprise even by their standards?

Hamas to me feels less like a genocidal terror cult (like Daesh) and more like a barbaric self-interested gang grifting off Palestinian liberation. Still evil, but a different kind of evil. They'd rather Israel exist and their (meaning Hamas') elite dwell in mansions in the Persian Gulf region than neither be true.

See, a week ago I was pretty sure that was the case.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Genuine question: obviously Hamas have always been a genocidal totalitarian terror cult, but were they always this bad or did the events of last weekend surprise even by their standards?

Hamas to me feels less like a genocidal terror cult (like Daesh) and more like a barbaric self-interested gang grifting off Palestinian liberation. Still evil, but a different kind of evil. They'd rather Israel exist and their (meaning Hamas') elite dwell in mansions in the Persian Gulf region than neither be true.

See, a week ago I was pretty sure that was the case.

I hope you're not taking the TOP SECRET EVIL PLAN on a random dead soldier at face value. The attack was a barbaric one that targeted civilians but it was fundamentally one at flipping the script on the Israeli security state.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Genuine question: obviously Hamas have always been a genocidal totalitarian terror cult, but were they always this bad or did the events of last weekend surprise even by their standards?

Hamas to me feels less like a genocidal terror cult (like Daesh) and more like a barbaric self-interested gang grifting off Palestinian liberation. Still evil, but a different kind of evil. They'd rather Israel exist and their (meaning Hamas') elite dwell in mansions in the Persian Gulf region than neither be true.

See, a week ago I was pretty sure that was the case.

Ultimately, they calculate they need to cosplay as the former to be able to be the latter.
This isn't to say they don't have people under them who fit "death cult", but the actual people calling the shots value their self-preservation and their riches above all else.

[Gass3268]

https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1712676313901981888https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1712955500411900217

CNN: US intelligence warned of the potential for violence days before Hamas attack

[ProudModerate2]

A lot of dirt is coming out on Netanyahu already, the inquiry into it will surely be absolutely brutal. How could he have had his head so deep in the sand to miss all the signs?

I agree.
If the Israeli Defense Forces around the wall would have even been slightly or moderately more armed with soldiers, then all, or almost all of the Hamas terrorists would have been contained to their side (or killed).
The death of Israeli citizens would have been dramatically reduced, and probably no hostages would have been taken.

I don't see that Netanyahu would have intentionally allowed, or orchestrated the attack in any way. But there was a huge intelligence and leadership failure in Israel, for not taking the Egyptian and US warnings much more seriously.

[Saint Milei]

This was isn't good for my health at all. Mainly because I have to see so many Ben Shapiro videos. Ben Shapiro is an evil man.

Ben Shapiro>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tucker Carlson

A zionist justifying slaughtering kids and won't fight for his homeland is not better than a man hoping for peace

This sounds dangerously close to a "dual loyalty" argument...

I say Evangelical Christians have dual loyalty all the time and no one bats an eye. Unlike the Evangelicals, I do not believe that the vast, vast majority of Jewish Americans have dual loyalty. I am, however, unsure about Ben Shapiro.

Ben Shapiro has no loyalty to the United States. It's not antisemitic to say it. His tweets this week prove it. As for your average Jewish-American, I'm sure they hope Israel is safe while take pride in being American.

[LabourJersey]

Coincidentally, Israel and Ukraine are the two countries in the world with a Jewish head of state right now.

Panama has a Jewish President. When you add heads of government, Russia and France join the list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_heads_of_state_and_government

France had a Jewish PM during the tail end of the Third Republic and the beginning of the Fourth, when the Prime Miniser had much more power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Blum

Not to derail the conversation (whatever conversation is being held in this thread), I find it genuinely surprising that New Zealand of all places has had three Jewish Prime Ministers?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/SanaImmTarek/status/1712901757204914196?s=20

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/SanaImmTarek/status/1712901757204914196?s=20

Finkelstein is a gem. Love that guy.

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/SanaImmTarek/status/1712901757204914196?s=20

Finkelstein is a gem. Love that guy.

No, he's a purveyor of deranged brain mush. For example: https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/the-slave-revolt-in-gaza-and-bernie?r=27wbno&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

[NOVA Green]

I hope people don't still take the "human shields" argument at face value. Should have lost traction right around the time they bombed Red Crescent workers after briefly ceasing bombing to let them rescue wounded civilians.

Then tell me why Hamas has their military headquarters in Al-Shifa Hospital.

So a cursory internet search does appear to provide some supporting evidence that Hamas did use parts of the grounds of the Al-Shifa Hospital from '06 to '14 for various activities, including perhaps an elaborate Hamas command bunker, deep underground around Building 2 of the hospital.

According to this rendition it was built by Israel in '83 as an underground emergency room with networks of tunnels.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed

Still, there hasn't been much information floating around since 2014, that this hospital is being used as an active Hamas base, and even if there might still be existing bunkers and arm stashes located on the grounds, surely Israel has better ways of dealing with that situation than basically sentencing those on life support, ventilators, etc... to almost certain death.

Not to mention, that as the major hospital in North Gaza, this will be THE major destination for the inevitable surge of injured and wounded Palestinians once Israel conducts what is likely to be an inevitable Invasion of Gaza. Regardless of Israeli attempts to have civilians removed from the area, there will doubtless will be many who will stay either voluntarily or because they have no other options.

Militarily, I question what strategic value there is for Israel with hitting the hospital with some type of massive air, artillery strikes, "bunker bombs", or whatever, when the result of destroying the hospital will likely be far worse in terms of international public opinion, which initially even in many Arab Countries, was very (or somewhat) sympathetic to Israel after the atrocities committed by Hamas within Israel's borders.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I hope people don't still take the "human shields" argument at face value. Should have lost traction right around the time they bombed Red Crescent workers after briefly ceasing bombing to let them rescue wounded civilians.

Then tell me why Hamas has their military headquarters in Al-Shifa Hospital.

So a cursory internet search does appear to provide some supporting evidence that Hamas did use parts of the grounds of the Al-Shifa Hospital from '06 to '14 for various activities, including perhaps an elaborate Hamas command bunker, deep underground around Building 2 of the hospital.

According to this rendition it was built by Israel in '83 as an underground emergency room with networks of tunnels.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed

Still, there hasn't been much information floating around since 2014, that this hospital is being used as an active Hamas base, and even if there might still be existing bunkers and arm stashes located on the grounds, surely Israel has better ways of dealing with that situation than basically sentencing those on life support, ventilators, etc... to almost certain death.

Not to mention, that as the major hospital in North Gaza, this will be THE major destination for the inevitable surge of injured and wounded Palestinians once Israel conducts what is likely to be an inevitable Invasion of Gaza. Regardless of Israeli attempts to have civilians removed from the area, there will doubtless will be many who will stay either voluntarily or because they have no other options.

Militarily, I question what strategic value there is for Israel with hitting the hospital with some type of massive air, artillery strikes, "bunker bombs", or whatever, when the result of destroying the hospital will likely be far worse in terms of international public opinion, which initially even in many Arab Countries, was very (or somewhat) sympathetic to Israel after the atrocities committed by Hamas within Israel's borders.

They're fine about killing hundreds of people because there could maybe, possibly, have been Hamas offices in it a decade ago. It's fine to say it--and actual Israelis (as opposed to diaspora Zionists who have to keep a veneer of decency) often do!

[Blue3]

Addressing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza requires more decisive action, in order to restrain the Israeli government to take revenge on the Gaza population. It is monstrous to tell one million of Gazans to flee, in what looks like the prelude to a massive ethnic cleansing. The statements of president Herzog are equally monstrous.  Herzog claims that there are no innocent civilians and that all the population of Gaza bears a collective guilt for Hamas atrocious actions, which sounds like an incitement to the most savage and unrestrained revenge and must be interpreted as such. During the following hours a terrific and unrestrained horror could unleash in the martiryzed Gaza. The impending massacre could be also a turning point for the Western World aligned to Israel, because nothing will be the same for us if we do nothing to prevent the most unspeakable horrors. This is a serious historical moment

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1712915377137521094?t=kwTG5nzqblpwU82EZHnG7g&...

I'm glad Biden finally acknowledged this... especially after the evacuation order, and what the Israeli president and others have said.

[NOVA Green]

Israel has confirmed entering Gaza Strip for the first time since the terrorist actions committed against Israeli civilians in Southern Israel.

Israeli Army Raids Gaza Strip, Retrieves Bodies of Missing Israelis

Israel confirms that ground forces have entered the Gaza Strip, 'destroyed terrorist squads and infrastructure' and found items that could lead to more missing persons

During raids in the Gaza Strip on Friday, the Israeli army was able to retrieve the bodies of several Israelis who have been missing since Hamas' surprise attack on Saturday and notify their families, IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari said on Friday.

Hagari added that the troops searched the area and found items that might lead to more missing Israelis. In the course of the incursions, meant to "purge the area of terrorists and enemy munitions" as well as to look for missing persons, the troops "destroyed terrorist infrastructure and squads, including a Hamas unit that fired anti-tank missiles toward Israel."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-14/

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Genuine question: obviously Hamas have always been a genocidal totalitarian terror cult, but were they always this bad or did the events of last weekend surprise even by their standards?

Hamas to me feels less like a genocidal terror cult (like Daesh) and more like a barbaric self-interested gang grifting off Palestinian liberation. Still evil, but a different kind of evil. They'd rather Israel exist and their (meaning Hamas') elite dwell in mansions in the Persian Gulf region than neither be true.

See, a week ago I was pretty sure that was the case.

I hope you're not taking the TOP SECRET EVIL PLAN on a random dead soldier at face value. The attack was a barbaric one that targeted civilians but it was fundamentally one at flipping the script on the Israeli security state.

This is a frankly chilling way of framing what happened last weekend, all the more so since at this point you really don't have to engage in this sort of contortion of basic morals given the predictably brutal nature of the Israeli response.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Genuine question: obviously Hamas have always been a genocidal totalitarian terror cult, but were they always this bad or did the events of last weekend surprise even by their standards?

Hamas to me feels less like a genocidal terror cult (like Daesh) and more like a barbaric self-interested gang grifting off Palestinian liberation. Still evil, but a different kind of evil. They'd rather Israel exist and their (meaning Hamas') elite dwell in mansions in the Persian Gulf region than neither be true.

See, a week ago I was pretty sure that was the case.

I hope you're not taking the TOP SECRET EVIL PLAN on a random dead soldier at face value. The attack was a barbaric one that targeted civilians but it was fundamentally one at flipping the script on the Israeli security state.

This is a frankly chilling way of framing what happened last weekend, all the more so since at this point you really don't have to engage in this sort of contortion of basic morals given the predictably brutal nature of the Israeli response.

Doesn't contradict the brutality of the attack, but its strategic purpose was to exact a political victory by exposing the IDF as unprepared and/or unwilling to escalate beyond the air raids.
https://www.ettingermentum.news/p/israels-tet-moment

[NOVA Green]

IDF eliminates the head of the Air Force in Gaza

IDF personnel eliminated the head of Gaza's air formation Murad Abu Murad in Gaza City on Friday, Hebrew media reported.

Murad largely took part in directing terrorists in the murderous attack last Saturday.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-768244

Also, looks like the IDF is rounding up large number of Hamas activists within the Occupied West Bank...

The IDF has arrested more than 230 Hamas operatives throughout West Bank since the start of Operation Swords of Iron, the military updated on Saturday morning.

The focus of the arrests has been on Hamas operatives as well as instigators of terrorism.

[NOVA Green]

Meanwhile, The Times of Israel is reporting a key Hamas Political leader based out of Qatar is claiming that the Senior political wing of the movement was surprised by the timing but not the actions.

Moussa Abu Marzouk, a Hamas political bureau member based in Doha, says all of the terror group’s non-military members had no prior knowledge of the shock attack on Israel last Saturday, October 7, when terrorists infiltrated by land, sea, and air, and launched a devastating onslaught that killed over 1,300 people, a majority of them civilians.

Abu Marzouk says the “political” leaders were “surprised by the date but not by the actions.” The Qatar-based officials said Hamas’s military wing “are the ones who plan, execute, and so on, but they abide by the general policies put forth by our political bureau.”

Abu Marzouk also denies — against overwhelming evidence, including footage posted proudly by terrorists — that Hamas killed civilians but conceded that some of the indiscriminate violence may have been committed by other terrorists and civilians who had followed the initial Hamas terror squads when they blew open holes in the security barriers.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-official-non-military-leaders-surprised-by-date-not-by-actions-of-shock-onslaught/

The same individual had a detailed conversation with The New Yorker, which goes into additional detail, which can be viewed for free unless one has reached subscription limits (Believe $1 / week) covers an initial subscription.

Mousa Abu Marzouk, a senior political leader of the Palestinian militant group Hamas, awoke Saturday morning to news of a bloodbath. Hamas’s military commanders, who are based in Gaza, had been so determined to keep secret their plan for a pre-dawn invasion of Israel that they’d hidden the details and the timing of the offensive even from the organization’s political leaders—including Abu Marzouk, who lives in exile in Doha, Qatar. He’d gone to sleep anticipating nothing, he told us, in a phone interview. “All of Hamas's leaders who are not military ones received the news early Saturday morning,” Abu Marzouk said. The claim was plausible: given the penetration of Israeli intelligence services and the surveillance typically surrounding exiled Hamas leaders, it would have been unwise to give Abu Marzouk foreknowledge of the assault.

In 2017, Abu Marzouk had helped promote a Hamas policy document that avoided the aggressive antisemitism of the organization’s original charter, which had called for the obliteration of the Jewish state. Hamas has lately prevented other militants or civilians within Gaza from attempting to attack Israeli forces across the border, effectively entering into a quiet security arrangement with Israel, even as it has denounced the Palestinian Authority for its more open collaboration. During recent escalations of violence involving the hard-line Palestinian faction Islamic Jihad, Hamas fighters conspicuously stood aside as Israeli forces wiped out the military commanders of its ostensible ally.

Lots more to the article, and like I said it's only a $1 / week trial subscription.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-was-hamas-thinking

[NOVA Green]

Three Air Balloons used by IDF to monitor Gaza went down a couple weeks before the Hamas cross-border assault.

Three observation balloons that are used by the Israel Defense Forces to monitor the Gaza border broke down in the past few weeks but were not replaced with alternative measures.

The IDF initially said this was the result of technical failure, but it is now examining the possibility that Hamas felled the balloons as part of its preparations for its lethal attack on Israel.

Observation balloons are a significant tool in the early warning systems protecting the Gaza border, and carry advanced technological tools and cameras. The three balloons operated in the northern, central and southern sections of the border.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-14/

Naturally for anybody remembering the disco era, reminds me slightly of the German artist Nena's song, "99 Luftballons" (Which was considered a bit of an Anti-War anthem at the time):

Perhaps still relevant today decades later...