Israel-Gaza war

[Aurelius2]

In Israel there is talk about RZ and Otzma having to leave the government for the sake of national unity, but I would actually argue it's the Haredim who need to go now. You don't deserve to decide on the (way of) deployment of the army if you fight vehemently to have everyone in the country serve in it except for your own community.

Yeah, I've been wondering if this will be the moment that would finally force the Haredim to do their fair share to defend and support the country that protects their way of life. I agree with them that Torah study should be part of the fabric of a Jewish state, but certainly not at the expense of literally everything else. Their kollelim don't defend themselves.

Military needs are much higher than they were 3 days ago, and Israel can't afford to have 20% of its Jewish population not contributing.

So you want Israel to be even more of a theocracy than it already is.

Jewish men are commanded to study Torah daily. A large proportion of Israeli Jews are religiously observant and follow this and other commands. Would you prefer to ban them from studying their holy texts, somehow?

The more you post, the more I realize you have a (very America-brained) child's understanding of this conflict, and of this part of the world more broadly.

[pppolitics]

Well, here you have the genocidal rhetoric of a fascist government. "Human animals", untermensch. Two millions of civilians trapped in Gaza, human beings treated like beasts in a cage. Barbarism unfolding

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1711311030083563925?t=nMkOSDsgtc01tkbvhJ...

It's easier to justify ethnic cleansing after they are dehumanized.

[pppolitics]

In Israel there is talk about RZ and Otzma having to leave the government for the sake of national unity, but I would actually argue it's the Haredim who need to go now. You don't deserve to decide on the (way of) deployment of the army if you fight vehemently to have everyone in the country serve in it except for your own community.

Yeah, I've been wondering if this will be the moment that would finally force the Haredim to do their fair share to defend and support the country that protects their way of life. I agree with them that Torah study should be part of the fabric of a Jewish state, but certainly not at the expense of literally everything else. Their kollelim don't defend themselves.

Military needs are much higher than they were 3 days ago, and Israel can't afford to have 20% of its Jewish population not contributing.

So you want Israel to be even more of a theocracy than it already is.

Jewish men are commanded to study Torah daily. A large proportion of Israeli Jews are religiously observant and follow this and other commands. Would you prefer to ban them from studying their holy texts, somehow?

Nice job setting up a straw man argument.

[Aurelius2]

In Israel there is talk about RZ and Otzma having to leave the government for the sake of national unity, but I would actually argue it's the Haredim who need to go now. You don't deserve to decide on the (way of) deployment of the army if you fight vehemently to have everyone in the country serve in it except for your own community.

Yeah, I've been wondering if this will be the moment that would finally force the Haredim to do their fair share to defend and support the country that protects their way of life. I agree with them that Torah study should be part of the fabric of a Jewish state, but certainly not at the expense of literally everything else. Their kollelim don't defend themselves.

Military needs are much higher than they were 3 days ago, and Israel can't afford to have 20% of its Jewish population not contributing.

So you want Israel to be even more of a theocracy than it already is.

Jewish men are commanded to study Torah daily. A large proportion of Israeli Jews are religiously observant and follow this and other commands. Would you prefer to ban them from studying their holy texts, somehow?

Nice job setting up a straw man argument.

This is really rich when my reply was to a massive strawman on your part, where you took a post where I was advocating for making Israel *less* "theocratic" (removing Haredi military exemptions that allow them to study in yeshiva and kollel instead) and claimed I wanted to make it more theocratic. Come on man.

[pppolitics]

Two thoughts:

1. Wow this thread sucks.
2. Wow you guys SUCK.

If there's a thread that makes a solid argument for me leaving this forum because of insane ass bullsh**t, this one is it.  I've heard enough genocide fantasies on both sides to make me understand why some folks want to live in Mars.

-The Man

The irony is that Hamas played into Israel's hand. They have undercut the Palestinian cause for the next 20-30 years, perhaps even longer.

The Palestinians are too weak to fight back against Israel stealing their land, so there isn't much else they can do anyway.

[pppolitics]

In Israel there is talk about RZ and Otzma having to leave the government for the sake of national unity, but I would actually argue it's the Haredim who need to go now. You don't deserve to decide on the (way of) deployment of the army if you fight vehemently to have everyone in the country serve in it except for your own community.

Yeah, I've been wondering if this will be the moment that would finally force the Haredim to do their fair share to defend and support the country that protects their way of life. I agree with them that Torah study should be part of the fabric of a Jewish state, but certainly not at the expense of literally everything else. Their kollelim don't defend themselves.

Military needs are much higher than they were 3 days ago, and Israel can't afford to have 20% of its Jewish population not contributing.

So you want Israel to be even more of a theocracy than it already is.

Jewish men are commanded to study Torah daily. A large proportion of Israeli Jews are religiously observant and follow this and other commands. Would you prefer to ban them from studying their holy texts, somehow?

Nice job setting up a straw man argument.

This is really rich when my reply was to a massive strawman on your part, where you took a post where I was advocating for making Israel *less* "theocratic" (removing Haredi military exemptions that allow them to study in yeshiva and kollel instead) and claimed I wanted to make it more theocratic. Come on man.

Where did I say anything about banning the study of holy texts?

[Aurelius2]

In Israel there is talk about RZ and Otzma having to leave the government for the sake of national unity, but I would actually argue it's the Haredim who need to go now. You don't deserve to decide on the (way of) deployment of the army if you fight vehemently to have everyone in the country serve in it except for your own community.

Yeah, I've been wondering if this will be the moment that would finally force the Haredim to do their fair share to defend and support the country that protects their way of life. I agree with them that Torah study should be part of the fabric of a Jewish state, but certainly not at the expense of literally everything else. Their kollelim don't defend themselves.

Military needs are much higher than they were 3 days ago, and Israel can't afford to have 20% of its Jewish population not contributing.

So you want Israel to be even more of a theocracy than it already is.

Jewish men are commanded to study Torah daily. A large proportion of Israeli Jews are religiously observant and follow this and other commands. Would you prefer to ban them from studying their holy texts, somehow?

Nice job setting up a straw man argument.

This is really rich when my reply was to a massive strawman on your part, where you took a post where I was advocating for making Israel *less* "theocratic" (removing Haredi military exemptions that allow them to study in yeshiva and kollel instead) and claimed I wanted to make it more theocratic. Come on man.

Where did I say anything about banning the study of holy texts?

Where did I say anything about making Israel "more theocratic"? You criticized me for saying, essentially, that Torah study should continue to exist in Israel despite needing to stop allowing Haredim to enjoy special privileges that enable them to study instead of serving in the military. Not hard to see how that led me to wonder if you just wanted Torah study to disappear from Israel altogether then.

Now tell me how what I said in my initial post would make Israel "more theocratic", as you said.

[WalterWhite]

There is zero chance Hamas controls the Gaza Strip after this war. Not only is Hamas significantly outnumbered (160K IDF soldiers vs. 30K Hamas soldiers); but Hamas is not getting the international support it had in the past, and the United States, the largest military superpower, is aiding Israel. With such a lopsided situation, Israel will easily end Hamas rule over the Gaza Strip. However, it is important to note that, given the fact that Hamas is outnumbered 5:1, Israel could easily end Hamas rule in Gaza without American support.

Moreover, Netanyahu's approval rating will likely plummet after the war ends. Opposition parties will repeatedly question his ignoring of intelligence indicating an attack weeks prior to the actual attack. It is likely that Likud fails to receive a plurality of the vote in the next election, and many opposition parties have formed an anti-Netanyahu coalition.

Hamas and Netanyahu being toast are some of the few good things that will come out of it.

On the downside the 150 Israeli hostages are probably as good as dead - at least a professor from the German Armed Forces University in Munich who was on TV tonight said as much - as are an undetermined number of Gaza civilians caught in the crossfire. The reasoning behind the former part is that you can either negotiate for their release or you can crush Hamas militarily, but you can't do both at the same time - and a successful rescue op seems unlikely especially given the crapshot intel Israel has run on lately.

If Hamas' rule over the West Bank is crushed and Netanyahu is defeated in the next election, we would be SIGNIFICANTLY closer to peace than at any point in the past few decades.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Two thoughts:

1. Wow this thread sucks.
2. Wow you guys SUCK.

If there's a thread that makes a solid argument for me leaving this forum because of insane ass bullsh**t, this one is it.  I've heard enough genocide fantasies on both sides to make me understand why some folks want to live in Mars.

-The Man

The irony is that Hamas played into Israel's hand. They have undercut the Palestinian cause for the next 20-30 years, perhaps even longer.

The Palestinians are too weak to fight back against Israel stealing their land, so there isn't much else they can do anyway.

There’s still better alternatives to murdering concert goers and going around neighborhoods hunting for Jewish people to indiscriminately kill

[pppolitics]

There will be a refugee crisis because of this war, like there is with EVERY war. I imagine the Biden administration would be very welcoming of refugees (like most Democrats are), but it will probably be more of a mixed bag in Europe. In either case, it is essential that governments do not repeat the mistake they made in WWII of denying refugees entering their countries.

I can assure you that no one in Europe wants even one of these murderous and mentally deranged "Palestinians". The entire Gaza strips needs thirty years of deprogramming to come to its senses.

Polling indicates that about 75% of Palestinians support Israel's right to exist. I am pretty sure only a fraction of the remaining 25% support Hamas' actions a few days ago. Plus, there will also be a lot of Israeli refugees, who clearly do not support Hamas' actions.

I doubt there will be a major national security risk in accepting refugees as there is probably very little overlap between those who wants to flee violence (refugees) and those who want to engage in violence (Hamas).

Why are there no protests against Hamas in the West Bank then and only celebrations?

Because the country is literally oppressed by Israel.

Exactly.

It's not that they approve of Hamas's method.

Rather, it's schadenfreude that harm has come to their oppressor.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It's not that they approve of Hamas's method.

Rather, it's schadenfreude that harm has come to their oppressor.

Drawing a firm distinction here seems like it might be ideologically motivated on your part.

[The Mikado]

I do not support Israel or its illegal aparthid. But I hope that a quick ground invasion of Gaza can return control of the Gaza Strip to the moderate Palestinian Authority. I also hope Israel will minimize civilian deaths.

I generally agree with this but my question is whether or not Fatah literally can hold Gaza if Israel hands it over to them or if Hamas retakes it two days after Israeli forces leave.

[Aurelius2]

There will be a refugee crisis because of this war, like there is with EVERY war. I imagine the Biden administration would be very welcoming of refugees (like most Democrats are), but it will probably be more of a mixed bag in Europe. In either case, it is essential that governments do not repeat the mistake they made in WWII of denying refugees entering their countries.

I can assure you that no one in Europe wants even one of these murderous and mentally deranged "Palestinians". The entire Gaza strips needs thirty years of deprogramming to come to its senses.

Polling indicates that about 75% of Palestinians support Israel's right to exist. I am pretty sure only a fraction of the remaining 25% support Hamas' actions a few days ago. Plus, there will also be a lot of Israeli refugees, who clearly do not support Hamas' actions.

I doubt there will be a major national security risk in accepting refugees as there is probably very little overlap between those who wants to flee violence (refugees) and those who want to engage in violence (Hamas).

Why are there no protests against Hamas in the West Bank then and only celebrations?

Because the country is literally oppressed by Israel.

Exactly.

It's not that they approve of Hamas's method.

Rather, it's schadenfreude that harm has come to their oppressor.

Lmao sure. They are celebrating because they want dead Jews. That is the beginning and end of it.

Please stop treating the world as some firm oppressor/oppressed binary, not only is it stupid and wrong but it makes you sound like a college freshman who has the hots for some leftoid girl.

[pppolitics]

Two thoughts:

1. Wow this thread sucks.
2. Wow you guys SUCK.

If there's a thread that makes a solid argument for me leaving this forum because of insane ass bullsh**t, this one is it.  I've heard enough genocide fantasies on both sides to make me understand why some folks want to live in Mars.

-The Man

The irony is that Hamas played into Israel's hand. They have undercut the Palestinian cause for the next 20-30 years, perhaps even longer.

The Palestinians are too weak to fight back against Israel stealing their land, so there isn't much else they can do anyway.

There’s still better alternatives to murdering concert goers and going around neighborhoods hunting for Jewish people to indiscriminately kill

I am sure that the Palestinians see it as revenge.

Every minute that goes by, Israel steals more and more Palestinian land, and the two-state solution becomes a more and more remote possibility.

If they could defeat the Israelis and take back occupied territories, they would have.

Instead, the Palestinians are so weak that the best they can do is to lash out periodically against the Israelis.

[RidinWithBiden24]

I'll join the fun.

I like Netanyahu/Israel and Biden's response so far. A few more days of continuous bombing in Gaza and targeted killings of Hamas fighters should lead to an end of the conflict within the next few weeks; but part of me does have a feeling that some other Islamic country will try to involve themselves deeper in this - leading to worsened escalation. Let's hope not, but we'll see.

[pppolitics]

It's not that they approve of Hamas's method.

Rather, it's schadenfreude that harm has come to their oppressor.

Drawing a firm distinction here seems like it might be ideologically motivated on your part.

I am very much against apartheid.

That is my ideological motivation.

[It’s so Joever]

I'll join the fun.

I like Netanyahu/Israel and Biden's response so far. A few more days of continuous bombing in Gaza and targeted killings of Hamas fighters should lead to an end of the conflict within the next few weeks; but part of me does have a feeling that some other Islamic country will try to involve themselves deeper in this - leading to worsened escalation. Let's hope not, but we'll see.

“Islamic Country”?
The only countries which have even a remote possibility of getting involved on behalf of Hamas are Iran and Syria, and neither of those are likely. Unless you think Bosnia and Bangladesh are gonna start funneling money to bus bombs just because they read the same book…

Nobody else in the Arab World wants to touch this lmao. Palestine is probably screwed long term.

[pppolitics]

There will be a refugee crisis because of this war, like there is with EVERY war. I imagine the Biden administration would be very welcoming of refugees (like most Democrats are), but it will probably be more of a mixed bag in Europe. In either case, it is essential that governments do not repeat the mistake they made in WWII of denying refugees entering their countries.

I can assure you that no one in Europe wants even one of these murderous and mentally deranged "Palestinians". The entire Gaza strips needs thirty years of deprogramming to come to its senses.

Polling indicates that about 75% of Palestinians support Israel's right to exist. I am pretty sure only a fraction of the remaining 25% support Hamas' actions a few days ago. Plus, there will also be a lot of Israeli refugees, who clearly do not support Hamas' actions.

I doubt there will be a major national security risk in accepting refugees as there is probably very little overlap between those who wants to flee violence (refugees) and those who want to engage in violence (Hamas).

Why are there no protests against Hamas in the West Bank then and only celebrations?

Because the country is literally oppressed by Israel.

Exactly.

It's not that they approve of Hamas's method.

Rather, it's schadenfreude that harm has come to their oppressor.

Lmao sure. They are celebrating because they want dead Jews. That is the beginning and end of it.

Please stop treating the world as some firm oppressor/oppressed binary, not only is it stupid and wrong but it makes you sound like a college freshman who has the hots for some leftoid girl.

If I illegally take your house for my own use, what do you call that?

[Meclazine for Israel]

I've already tossed out enough unpopular opinions, but I'll toss out one more and say that if Gaza doesn't return 100% of the American captives they currently hold, we'd be entirely within our rights to put American boots on the ground in Gaza, and the same is true for any other country whose people are currently held hostage by Palestine.

Of course it wouldn't look good, and we may be better off collaborating with the Israelis and having their army do the work.  But we shouldn't hold back when it comes to getting our people out.

Half the hostages would already be killed.

Hamas are posting videos of dead hostages geolocated already and identified by clothing.

[It’s so Joever]

There will be a refugee crisis because of this war, like there is with EVERY war. I imagine the Biden administration would be very welcoming of refugees (like most Democrats are), but it will probably be more of a mixed bag in Europe. In either case, it is essential that governments do not repeat the mistake they made in WWII of denying refugees entering their countries.

I can assure you that no one in Europe wants even one of these murderous and mentally deranged "Palestinians". The entire Gaza strips needs thirty years of deprogramming to come to its senses.

Polling indicates that about 75% of Palestinians support Israel's right to exist. I am pretty sure only a fraction of the remaining 25% support Hamas' actions a few days ago. Plus, there will also be a lot of Israeli refugees, who clearly do not support Hamas' actions.

I doubt there will be a major national security risk in accepting refugees as there is probably very little overlap between those who wants to flee violence (refugees) and those who want to engage in violence (Hamas).

Why are there no protests against Hamas in the West Bank then and only celebrations?

Because the country is literally oppressed by Israel.

Exactly.

It's not that they approve of Hamas's method.

Rather, it's schadenfreude that harm has come to their oppressor.

Lmao sure. They are celebrating because they want dead Jews. That is the beginning and end of it.

Please stop treating the world as some firm oppressor/oppressed binary, not only is it stupid and wrong but it makes you sound like a college freshman who has the hots for some leftoid girl.

Or maybe they are celebrating because Israeli rockets in 2014 killed their cousins, their family members in West Bank are being forced out of their homes at gunpoint illegally, and they don’t have access to the outside world? Or more likely, it’s those factors and of course anti-admitían rampant within the populace combined (and these two factors may contribute to eachother)

Your comment is like someone saying Israelis just want to see a bunch of dead Muslims, it’s incredibly dull and makes me think you are incapable of analyzing this issue rationally. That’s not an insult by the way, if you have any connections to the region, it’s fine to be irrational, I know I get irrational on Balkan policy, but at least think about it internally. That’s what a mature person does, recognizes their biases.

[WalterWhite]

Q10 shows that a majority of Palestinians support Israel's right to exist.

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/blmain.html

[RidinWithBiden24]

I'll join the fun.

I like Netanyahu/Israel and Biden's response so far. A few more days of continuous bombing in Gaza and targeted killings of Hamas fighters should lead to an end of the conflict within the next few weeks; but part of me does have a feeling that some other Islamic country will try to involve themselves deeper in this - leading to worsened escalation. Let's hope not, but we'll see.

“Islamic Country”?
The only countries which have even a remote possibility of getting involved on behalf of Hamas are Iran and Syria, and neither of those are likely. Unless you think Bosnia and Bangladesh are gonna start funneling money to bus bombs just because they read the same book…

Nobody else in the Arab World wants to touch this lmao. Palestine is probably screwed long term.

Well, there are already rumors Iran orchestrated planning of it. Zelenskyy seems to be under the impression that Ukraine has evidence of Russian participation as well. There's also Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Turkey nearby; all with differing relations to the U.S. and long-term goals. I wouldn't disqualify the possibility that things become much worse internationally.

[It’s so Joever]

I'll join the fun.

I like Netanyahu/Israel and Biden's response so far. A few more days of continuous bombing in Gaza and targeted killings of Hamas fighters should lead to an end of the conflict within the next few weeks; but part of me does have a feeling that some other Islamic country will try to involve themselves deeper in this - leading to worsened escalation. Let's hope not, but we'll see.

“Islamic Country”?
The only countries which have even a remote possibility of getting involved on behalf of Hamas are Iran and Syria, and neither of those are likely. Unless you think Bosnia and Bangladesh are gonna start funneling money to bus bombs just because they read the same book…

Nobody else in the Arab World wants to touch this lmao. Palestine is probably screwed long term.

Well, there are already rumors Iran orchestrated planning of it. Zelenskyy seems to be under the impression that Ukraine has evidence of Russian participation as well. There's also Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Turkey nearby; all with differing relations to the U.S. and long-term goals. I wouldn't disqualify the possibility that things become much worse internationally.

Iraq will follow what their Iranian partners (owners) want them to do, and there is zero chance of a Turkey touching this even if Erdogan has play dough for brains.

And no, the actual Lebanese government currently is far far away from at all helping Hamas. Hezbollah sure, but not the country as a whole lmao.

[Isaak]

In Israel there is talk about RZ and Otzma having to leave the government for the sake of national unity, but I would actually argue it's the Haredim who need to go now. You don't deserve to decide on the (way of) deployment of the army if you fight vehemently to have everyone in the country serve in it except for your own community.

Yeah, I've been wondering if this will be the moment that would finally force the Haredim to do their fair share to defend and support the country that protects their way of life. I agree with them that Torah study should be part of the fabric of a Jewish state, but certainly not at the expense of literally everything else. Their kollelim don't defend themselves.

Military needs are much higher than they were 3 days ago, and Israel can't afford to have 20% of its Jewish population not contributing.

So you want Israel to be even more of a theocracy than it already is.

Do you know what the term "theocracy" means? Because Israel is currently light years away from being one.

But, well, this is a board where everything is also a "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" these days...

[Pres Mike]

I do not support Israel or its illegal aparthid. But I hope that a quick ground invasion of Gaza can return control of the Gaza Strip to the moderate Palestinian Authority. I also hope Israel will minimize civilian deaths.

I generally agree with this but my question is whether or not Fatah literally can hold Gaza if Israel hands it over to them or if Hamas retakes it two days after Israeli forces leave.

Almost certainly not. There will need to be an international peacekeeping force or IDF. The IDF in the West Bank is the only thing supporting Fatah.