Muslim-majority city council bans LGBTQ+ pride flags on public property

[jojoju1998]

The real irony is that the fact your argument can even be made is because of a colonial mindset.

There's this idea that any movements against LGBT are influenced or caused by the Westerners. We can't think for ourselves, and are always being influenced by the West.

This is not true. We don't need Europeans help to be "homophobic" or "transphobic".
Our values come from God and God alone.

That's quite transparent.

Glad we agree.


I actually am interested in talking to you.
You have called yourself a Catholic quite a few times.

What is your conception of God? Do you believe in the Bible? What does Catholicism mean?

We can continue this discussion elsewhere if you like, whether on PMs or perhaps another platform. You strike me as an interesting guy and I want to learn more about the way you view the world.

Sure you can DM me some questions, or talk on Discord.




But, I feel like, you're not getting my point. Then again, I often don't make my point clear.

[PSOL]

The levels of pseudointellectualism, chauvinism, and mental gymnastics have really gone overboard this page and a half.

[Ferguson97]

What the f-ck is going on with people? Am I really one of the only people on Atlas who doesn't hold some form of bigotry? Do you all reject the principles of a heterogenous, multiracial democracy?

Clearly not, given your well-established indifference towards the rights of women and Muslims.

This is like the third time you've mentioned some fictional bigotry I hold towards Muslims. Are you okay?

[John Dule]

What the f-ck is going on with people? Am I really one of the only people on Atlas who doesn't hold some form of bigotry? Do you all reject the principles of a heterogenous, multiracial democracy?

Clearly not, given your well-established indifference towards the rights of women and Muslims.

This is like the third time you've mentioned some fictional bigotry I hold towards Muslims. Are you okay?

I'm going to keep saying it until you address it.

[Ferguson97]

What the f-ck is going on with people? Am I really one of the only people on Atlas who doesn't hold some form of bigotry? Do you all reject the principles of a heterogenous, multiracial democracy?

Clearly not, given your well-established indifference towards the rights of women and Muslims.

This is like the third time you've mentioned some fictional bigotry I hold towards Muslims. Are you okay?

I'm going to keep saying it until you address it.

As I'm one of the only people in this thread arguing against a Muslim ban, I'm going to need some clarification from you: when specifically have I demonstrated "well-established indifference towards the rights of women and Muslims"?

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

This is not true. We don't need Europeans help to be "homophobic" or "transphobic".
Our values come from God and God alone.

Getting all your values and opinions from a fairy tale is dumb and cringe. Fundamentalists are brainless slugs, regardless of the religion.

[TheReckoning]

The levels of pseudointellectualism, chauvinism, and mental gymnastics have really gone overboard this page and a half.

Have you ever taken a look at your own post history?

[Badger]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Or rather, it's demonstrated how a lot of weird ass xenopho be at is being miscast as somehow a gay rights issue. It's rather telling that the individuals pushing this hardest have always for their own reasons opposed immigration, using the most recent Atlas controversy as additional bad faith grounds for doing so.

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

As I'm one of the only people in this thread arguing against a Muslim ban, I'm going to need some clarification from you: when specifically have I demonstrated "well-established indifference towards the rights of women and Muslims"?

Women, I imagine, is a reference to your reliance on self-ID even in sports, a scenario where assigned gender actually means something (Puberty causes changes that human science still hasn't figured out how to reverse, though it's not exactly a high priority). Muslims, I imagine, is because you give Abdullah sh**t for believing in a God that made a world filled with Gays, yet hates them more than life itself. Speaking of:

This is not true. We don't need Europeans help to be "homophobic" or "transphobic".
Our values come from God and God alone.

Maybe I'm just some white wokester, but if God didn't want people to be gay, then why are we gay?
I was going to write a long-winded rant about my own theology--to the extent I think about religion--when it comes to the Gays, but I decided that it might not be relevant.

[John Dule]

What the f-ck is going on with people? Am I really one of the only people on Atlas who doesn't hold some form of bigotry? Do you all reject the principles of a heterogenous, multiracial democracy?

Clearly not, given your well-established indifference towards the rights of women and Muslims.

This is like the third time you've mentioned some fictional bigotry I hold towards Muslims. Are you okay?

I'm going to keep saying it until you address it.

As I'm one of the only people in this thread arguing against a Muslim ban, I'm going to need some clarification from you: when specifically have I demonstrated "well-established indifference towards the rights of women and Muslims"?

According to you, only ex-Muslims are allowed to criticize Islam. Doing otherwise is bigoted.

It has nothing to do with his race, he's a Muslim/ex-Muslim. Just as I, an ex-Christian, have an authority to criticize Christianity.

Peebs correctly identified your misogyny. I will not comment on it any further out of fear that I will derail this discussion.

[Horus]

I'm still waiting on you to give an example of a Muslim nation where LGBT people can live freely and openly... Provide me with one and I'll answer your question.

Muslim nation amirite

all I'm getting from this is that you can't name a Muslim country where LGBT people can live openly. There's not one. And because there's not one you decided to throw a tantrum and do a "hurr durr America bad."

The worst, most homophobic town in Utah or Mississippi is probably better for the average LGBT person than 99.9% of the Islamic world.

Also we're talking about LGBT people as a whole, not just trans people.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

That map is misleading, it's designed to imply that states with "bills pending" or "bills prevented from advancing" have actually passed when for the latter it's the exact OPPOSITE.

[TheReckoning]

I'm still waiting on you to give an example of a Muslim nation where LGBT people can live freely and openly... Provide me with one and I'll answer your question.

Muslim nation amirite

all I'm getting from this is that you can't name a Muslim country where LGBT people can live openly. There's not one. And because there's not one you decided to throw a tantrum and do a "hurr durr America bad."

The worst, most homophobic town in Utah or Mississippi is probably better for the average LGBT person than 99.9% of the Islamic world.

Also we're talking about LGBT people as a whole, not just trans people.

I’m pretty sure every single state in the country has majority support for legal gay marriage. Hell, I’m willing to wager even if limiting ourselves only to Republicans/Republican leaners, still, a majority of states would have majority support for legal gay marriage.

That wouldn’t be the case in a single Muslim-majority country.

[Ferguson97]

According to you, only ex-Muslims are allowed to criticize Islam. Doing otherwise is bigoted.

I'm not criticizing "Islam", I'm criticizing one specific Muslim person (Abdullah). There are many Muslims who are not bigoted, just as there are many Christians who are not bigoted. There is a difference.

Peebs correctly identified your misogyny. I will not comment on it any further out of fear that I will derail this discussion.

As you correctly identified, trying to litigate this issue would be off-topic and derail the discussion. My only response will be an eyeroll. /rolls eyes/

[All Along The Watchtower]

all I'm getting from this is that you can't name a Muslim country where LGBT people can live openly. There's not one. And because there's not one you decided to throw a tantrum and do a "hurr durr America bad."

This thread is in US General Discussion, about a city council in the US. Talk about other countries in this thread is off topic.

The worst, most homophobic town in Utah or Mississippi is probably better for the average LGBT person than 99.9% of the Islamic world.

I’m sure those are comforting words to LGBT people in those towns.

Also we're talking about LGBT people as a whole, not just trans people.

Yes I know that many on this forum are disgusted by the existence of trans people.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

i truly hope the red avs don't flee this thread for greener pastures, we're having quite an enlightening conversation between different parts of the dem coalition which seems more tenuous than upon first glance

The fracture in the Democratic Party is between the John Courtney Murray Liberals and the French Lacite Liberals.


I am a John Courtney Murray Liberal. The idea of multiculturalism, multi religion, religious freedom in the traditional American Sense, as developed by the American Catholic Theologian John Courtney Murray, that what ever problems a certain group might have, that it will lessen itself over time through education, assimilation, and cooperation.

And historically speaking this has been the case, American Muslims who are more educated, who come here on worker visas ( aka concentrated in California, NY, Virginia, ) tend to be more progressive on social issues compared to less educated Muslims, like this situation, full of refugees.


Some here are French Lacite Liberals, that in order to promote progress for the vast majority of peoples, that Religion has to be removed from public life. Including Islam. And " Evangelical " Christianity. This is why some here crow on and on about the decline of Christianity in the US, and in the West as a whole.

So, as anyone who knows me well enough and has seen me talk about it before, I'm Muslim.

My attitude towards Pride flags in general is simply apathy. Bigger fish to fry, and I've never seen myself as LGBT. I'm sure there is at least one Muslim who at least  perceives themselves to be LGBT (at the very least some T), but it goes down wrongful paths to let that demographic dictate too much about the contours of this. It only empowers radicals who have the loudest voices within a numerically marginal community to control the public debate without the public having a veto.

Still, this is a warning to social liberals that pushing things too much on this front can cause backlash. Things like this could be the salvo in a changed culture war landscape in the future, so you want broad appeal. That requires discipline.

Democrats have to be a John Courtney Murray. Multicultural. Tolerance. Leave each other alone.

John Courtney Murray advanced a lot of the views he did because was a proto-neocon Cold Warrior fwiw (which isn't to say he didn't make valuable contributions; he made a ton of them and probably did more to change Catholic theology for the better than any other American Catholic), but overall I agree with you. It's dismaying to see left-wing posters making ominous noises about "supporting the burkini" (prurient framing anyway in my opinion, regardless of what position one is taking) being why French Muslims are as poorly integrated as they are, rather than, oh, say, the fact that the French state has a longstanding tradition of turobcharged centralism, with all that that implies about its approach to any cultural currents coming from outside the Paris area.

[TheReckoning]

i truly hope the red avs don't flee this thread for greener pastures, we're having quite an enlightening conversation between different parts of the dem coalition which seems more tenuous than upon first glance

The fracture in the Democratic Party is between the John Courtney Murray Liberals and the French Lacite Liberals.


I am a John Courtney Murray Liberal. The idea of multiculturalism, multi religion, religious freedom in the traditional American Sense, as developed by the American Catholic Theologian John Courtney Murray, that what ever problems a certain group might have, that it will lessen itself over time through education, assimilation, and cooperation.

And historically speaking this has been the case, American Muslims who are more educated, who come here on worker visas ( aka concentrated in California, NY, Virginia, ) tend to be more progressive on social issues compared to less educated Muslims, like this situation, full of refugees.


Some here are French Lacite Liberals, that in order to promote progress for the vast majority of peoples, that Religion has to be removed from public life. Including Islam. And " Evangelical " Christianity. This is why some here crow on and on about the decline of Christianity in the US, and in the West as a whole.

So, as anyone who knows me well enough and has seen me talk about it before, I'm Muslim.

My attitude towards Pride flags in general is simply apathy. Bigger fish to fry, and I've never seen myself as LGBT. I'm sure there is at least one Muslim who at least  perceives themselves to be LGBT (at the very least some T), but it goes down wrongful paths to let that demographic dictate too much about the contours of this. It only empowers radicals who have the loudest voices within a numerically marginal community to control the public debate without the public having a veto.

Still, this is a warning to social liberals that pushing things too much on this front can cause backlash. Things like this could be the salvo in a changed culture war landscape in the future, so you want broad appeal. That requires discipline.

Democrats have to be a John Courtney Murray. Multicultural. Tolerance. Leave each other alone.

John Courtney Murray advanced a lot of the views he did because was a proto-neocon Cold Warrior fwiw (which isn't to say he didn't make valuable contributions; he made a ton of them and probably did more to change Catholic theology for the better than any other American Catholic), but overall I agree with you. It's dismaying to see left-wing posters making ominous noises about "supporting the burkini" (prurient framing anyway in my opinion, regardless of what position one is taking) being why French Muslims are as poorly integrated as they are, rather than, oh, say, the fact that the French state has a longstanding tradition of turobcharged centralism, with all that that implies about its approach to any cultural currents coming from outside the Paris area.

PSOL probably holds a positive opinion on the “Soviet” mindset when it comes to religion.

[jojoju1998]

i truly hope the red avs don't flee this thread for greener pastures, we're having quite an enlightening conversation between different parts of the dem coalition which seems more tenuous than upon first glance

The fracture in the Democratic Party is between the John Courtney Murray Liberals and the French Lacite Liberals.


I am a John Courtney Murray Liberal. The idea of multiculturalism, multi religion, religious freedom in the traditional American Sense, as developed by the American Catholic Theologian John Courtney Murray, that what ever problems a certain group might have, that it will lessen itself over time through education, assimilation, and cooperation.

And historically speaking this has been the case, American Muslims who are more educated, who come here on worker visas ( aka concentrated in California, NY, Virginia, ) tend to be more progressive on social issues compared to less educated Muslims, like this situation, full of refugees.


Some here are French Lacite Liberals, that in order to promote progress for the vast majority of peoples, that Religion has to be removed from public life. Including Islam. And " Evangelical " Christianity. This is why some here crow on and on about the decline of Christianity in the US, and in the West as a whole.

So, as anyone who knows me well enough and has seen me talk about it before, I'm Muslim.

My attitude towards Pride flags in general is simply apathy. Bigger fish to fry, and I've never seen myself as LGBT. I'm sure there is at least one Muslim who at least  perceives themselves to be LGBT (at the very least some T), but it goes down wrongful paths to let that demographic dictate too much about the contours of this. It only empowers radicals who have the loudest voices within a numerically marginal community to control the public debate without the public having a veto.

Still, this is a warning to social liberals that pushing things too much on this front can cause backlash. Things like this could be the salvo in a changed culture war landscape in the future, so you want broad appeal. That requires discipline.

Democrats have to be a John Courtney Murray. Multicultural. Tolerance. Leave each other alone.

John Courtney Murray advanced a lot of the views he did because was a proto-neocon Cold Warrior fwiw (which isn't to say he didn't make valuable contributions; he made a ton of them and probably did more to change Catholic theology for the better than any other American Catholic), but overall I agree with you. It's dismaying to see left-wing posters making ominous noises about "supporting the burkini" (prurient framing anyway in my opinion, regardless of what position one is taking) being why French Muslims are as poorly integrated as they are, rather than, oh, say, the fact that the French state has a longstanding tradition of turobcharged centralism, with all that that implies about its approach to any cultural currents coming from outside the Paris area.

PSOL probably holds a positive opinion on the “Soviet” mindset when it comes to religion.

The irony is; the Soviet Union was strongly Anti Gay. Stalin for instance linked being Gay to Fascism.

[Horus]

all I'm getting from this is that you can't name a Muslim country where LGBT people can live openly. There's not one. And because there's not one you decided to throw a tantrum and do a "hurr durr America bad."

This thread is in US General Discussion, about a city council in the US. Talk about other countries in this thread is off topic.

The worst, most homophobic town in Utah or Mississippi is probably better for the average LGBT person than 99.9% of the Islamic world.

I’m sure those are comforting words to LGBT people in those towns.

Also we're talking about LGBT people as a whole, not just trans people.

Yes I know that many on this forum are disgusted by the existence of trans people.

Cop out.

[Mercenary]

Good. Pride flags are ridiculous and should not be on any public property. Not a single tax dollar should go to support it. Really celebrating "pride" of any kind, alphabet meaningless pride or pride in actual accomplishments, is stupid. Pride is not a positive.

[T'Chenka]

Good. Pride flags are ridiculous and should not be on any public property. Not a single tax dollar should go to support it. Really celebrating "pride" of any kind, alphabet meaningless pride or pride in actual accomplishments, is stupid. Pride is not a positive.

Are you proud to be American? Are you proud to be anti-pedophilia? Are you proud that you work for your paycheck instead of taking a government handout from the taxpayers?

Here's another one for you. I am assuming you are a christian. Hopefully I'm not wrong here. If you lived in a country where many people HATED christians, and treated them like dogs__t, and told you that you were an immoral subhuman for being a christian, would you feel proud of your faith despite the difficulties, or would you feel ashamed?

These are not rhetorical questions. I'm asking you to answer them.

[John Dule]

According to you, only ex-Muslims are allowed to criticize Islam. Doing otherwise is bigoted.

I'm not criticizing "Islam", I'm criticizing one specific Muslim person (Abdullah). There are many Muslims who are not bigoted, just as there are many Christians who are not bigoted. There is a difference.

Everything you're saying about Abdullah applies to the vast, vast majority of Muslims.

[T'Chenka]

I'm not criticizing "Islam", I'm criticizing one specific Muslim person (Abdullah). There are many Muslims who are not bigoted, just as there are many Christians who are not bigoted. There is a difference.

Everything you're saying about Abdullah applies to the vast, vast majority of Muslims.

If somebody hates every bigoted muslim because of the bigotry and does not hate non-bigoted muslims, that would not make that person anti-muslim, regardless of whether 1% of all muslims worldwide were bigots or if 99% were. That would make the person anti-bigot.

[John Dule]

I'm not criticizing "Islam", I'm criticizing one specific Muslim person (Abdullah). There are many Muslims who are not bigoted, just as there are many Christians who are not bigoted. There is a difference.

Everything you're saying about Abdullah applies to the vast, vast majority of Muslims.

If somebody hates every bigoted muslim because of the bigotry and does not hate non-bigoted muslims, that would not make that person anti-muslim, regardless of whether 1% of all muslims worldwide were bigots or if 99% were. That would make the person anti-bigot.

Yeah, and my point is that this is precisely what I was saying in that original thread where Ferguson called me "Islamophobic." Please explain it to him now.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I'm not criticizing "Islam", I'm criticizing one specific Muslim person (Abdullah). There are many Muslims who are not bigoted, just as there are many Christians who are not bigoted. There is a difference.

Everything you're saying about Abdullah applies to the vast, vast majority of Muslims.

If somebody hates every bigoted muslim because of the bigotry and does not hate non-bigoted muslims, that would not make that person anti-muslim, regardless of whether 1% of all muslims worldwide were bigots or if 99% were. That would make the person anti-bigot.

Yeah, and my point is that this is precisely what I was saying in that original thread where Ferguson called me "Islamophobic." Please explain it to him now.

I like succinct language. I and you have areas of broad agreement as well as broad disagreement, personally I'd call you anti-religion, without any shred of intention of passing judgement on that fact. That seems quite fair all things considered.