Muslim-majority city council bans LGBTQ+ pride flags on public property

[jojoju1998]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Frankly, I don't have an opinion on this.


What I will say however, is that American Liberalism is at a Crisis point.

Many POC, especially migrants as I said, are very very conservative, believe me. The only reason why many vote Blue is because the Republican Party is obsessed with the racial politics.

If they drop it, and focus on religion, small businesses, civic nationalism, then they could win.



This article in my view, just show cases the tensions over having an American style liberalism, and/or a French style liberalism.

[Saint Milei]

It's good to see other denominations fight against the insanity this new Progressive has brought.

[Ferguson97]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Aren't you implicitly saying that gay lives matter more than immigrant lives? Why should one life matter over the other?

That's not even getting into the fact that this is an absolutely revolting false dilemma. It's not an either-or scenario. And its revolting to suggest otherwise.

[Horus]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Aren't you implicitly saying that gay lives matter more than immigrant lives? Why should one life matter over the other?

That's not even getting into the fact that this is an absolutely revolting false dilemma. It's not an either-or scenario. And its revolting to suggest otherwise.

I'm still waiting on you to give an example of a Muslim nation where LGBT people can live freely and openly... Provide me with one and I'll answer your question.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Aren't you implicitly saying that gay lives matter more than immigrant lives? Why should one life matter over the other?

That's not even getting into the fact that this is an absolutely revolting false dilemma. It's not an either-or scenario. And its revolting to suggest otherwise.

I mean you are of the delusion that immigrant democratic voters are as socially liberal as the Democratic Party as a whole.  Like the corporal punishment thread , you found it hard to believe that Asian Democrats are more pro corporal punishment than White Republicans even though many Asian posters on here were saying so themselves .

The fact is that if you prioritize having a diverse society then yes you have to accept the fact you won’t be able to implement your social agenda without having some sort of backlash .

[jojoju1998]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Aren't you implicitly saying that gay lives matter more than immigrant lives? Why should one life matter over the other?

That's not even getting into the fact that this is an absolutely revolting false dilemma. It's not an either-or scenario. And its revolting to suggest otherwise.

I'm still waiting on you to give an example of a Muslim nation where LGBT people can live freely and openly... Provide me with one and I'll answer your question.

None.


But this also applies to any country where Fundamentalist Religion is still very much alive and active. Or even states. Just ask our very own Red States.

Hungary, Poland, Russia for the Christians. India for the Hindus.



Here's another factor to take into account, college education level. Before the 2010s, most Muslim immigrants are " college educated ", they typically would come through worker visas, to work for giant tech companies, and usually come from countries where's a tradition of college education. Iran, Iraq, More Middle eastern countries. They for the most part, tend to be more " moderate " if not liberal.


Post 2010s, we can see a shift, where we have more migrants coming from poorer countries, more often than not refugees. Pakistan. Yemen. These people are more likely to have conservative social views.

[jojoju1998]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Aren't you implicitly saying that gay lives matter more than immigrant lives? Why should one life matter over the other?

That's not even getting into the fact that this is an absolutely revolting false dilemma. It's not an either-or scenario. And its revolting to suggest otherwise.

I mean you are of the delusion that immigrant democratic voters are as socially liberal as the Democratic Party as a whole.  Like the corporal punishment thread , you found it hard to believe that Asian Democrats are more pro corporal punishment than White Republicans even though many Asian posters on here were saying so themselves .

The fact is that if you prioritize having a diverse society then yes you have to accept the fact you won’t be able to implement your social agenda without having some sort of backlash .

You're not wrong. Per se.

The thought process is that second generation, children of migrants, tend to be more secular and liberal ( at least in the US ) as they assimilate into American culture.


It should be noted that Evangelical Christianity is growing the most with Asian, and Hispanic communities. Fuller Seminary's faculty, half of them are Korean.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Aren't you implicitly saying that gay lives matter more than immigrant lives? Why should one life matter over the other?

That's not even getting into the fact that this is an absolutely revolting false dilemma. It's not an either-or scenario. And its revolting to suggest otherwise.

I mean you are of the delusion that immigrant democratic voters are as socially liberal as the Democratic Party as a whole.  Like the corporal punishment thread , you found it hard to believe that Asian Democrats are more pro corporal punishment than White Republicans even though many Asian posters on here were saying so themselves .

The fact is that if you prioritize having a diverse society then yes you have to accept the fact you won’t be able to implement your social agenda without having some sort of backlash .

You're not wrong. Per se.

The thought process is that second generation, children of migrants, tend to be more secular and liberal ( at least in the US ) as they assimilate into American culture.


It should be noted that Evangelical Christianity is growing the most with Asian, and Hispanic communities. Fuller Seminary's faculty, half of them are Korean.

Oh sure but they are still not as socially liberal as white democrats of a similar age . They probably won’t express some of their more socially conservative views in public but in private they are still way more socially conservative than white Democrats of a similar age and even some white republicans on a similar age depending on the issue(left of them on abortion and guns).

On economic issues they sadly tend to be as left wing as young people as a whole and the Republicans have to do something to change that or the economic consensus is gonna go hard left by 2032 .

[jojoju1998]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

Aren't you implicitly saying that gay lives matter more than immigrant lives? Why should one life matter over the other?

That's not even getting into the fact that this is an absolutely revolting false dilemma. It's not an either-or scenario. And its revolting to suggest otherwise.

I mean you are of the delusion that immigrant democratic voters are as socially liberal as the Democratic Party as a whole.  Like the corporal punishment thread , you found it hard to believe that Asian Democrats are more pro corporal punishment than White Republicans even though many Asian posters on here were saying so themselves .

The fact is that if you prioritize having a diverse society then yes you have to accept the fact you won’t be able to implement your social agenda without having some sort of backlash .

You're not wrong. Per se.

The thought process is that second generation, children of migrants, tend to be more secular and liberal ( at least in the US ) as they assimilate into American culture.


It should be noted that Evangelical Christianity is growing the most with Asian, and Hispanic communities. Fuller Seminary's faculty, half of them are Korean.

Oh sure but they are still not as socially liberal as white democrats of a similar age . They probably won’t express some of their more socially conservative views in public but in private they are still way more socially conservative than white Democrats of a similar age and even some white republicans on a similar age depending on the issue(left of them on abortion and guns).

On economic issues they sadly tend to be as left wing as young people as a whole and the Republicans have to do something to change that or the economic consensus is gonna go hard left by 2032 .

American economic conservatism however has been the inverse of other countries. And as America continues to receive more of these migrants, the old classic Reagan individualistic free market paradigm will end.


In most other countries, it's this way.

FREE MARKET ECONOMICS, AND SOCIALLY LIBERAL POLICIES.

ECONOMICALLY INTERVENTIONIST POLICIES AND CONSERVATIVE SOCIAL POLICIES.


In America it's the inverse. It's :

FREE MARKET ECONOMICS AND SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE POLICIES.


ECONOMICALLY INTERVENTIONIST POLICIES AND SOCIALLY LIBERAL POLICIES.


That inverse I believe is ending, and ending quick.

[jojoju1998]

For instance, my parents are strongly socially conservative.



But they also hate banks, mildly supportive of Unions, and have a small respect for Bernie Sanders.

[America Needs R'hllor]

"Tolerant" Left.

Many POC, especially new migrants are far to the right of the current Democratic Party, especially on social issues. And many of them run small businesses. If the Republican Party could drop their racially based cultural politics ( because Critical Race theory are foreign ), they could dominate for the next 30 years.

Polls (very) consistently show strong support for human rights to LGBT (including T) people. The notion that there is a secret socially conservative majority if only the Republicans dropped racism in favor of even more LGBTphobia they'd dominate is detached from reality.

[OSR stands with Israel]

"Tolerant" Left.

Many POC, especially new migrants are far to the right of the current Democratic Party, especially on social issues. And many of them run small businesses. If the Republican Party could drop their racially based cultural politics ( because Critical Race theory are foreign ), they could dominate for the next 30 years.

Polls (very) consistently show strong support for human rights to LGBT (including T) people. The notion that there is a secret socially conservative majority if only the Republicans dropped racism in favor of even more LGBTphobia they'd dominate is detached from reality.

Depends on what you mean .

Most people do support allowing people 18 and over to transition but it’s under 18 which is far more divisive and many polls on that favor the more conservative position .

[jojoju1998]

"Tolerant" Left.

Many POC, especially new migrants are far to the right of the current Democratic Party, especially on social issues. And many of them run small businesses. If the Republican Party could drop their racially based cultural politics ( because Critical Race theory are foreign ), they could dominate for the next 30 years.

Polls (very) consistently show strong support for human rights to LGBT (including T) people. The notion that there is a secret socially conservative majority if only the Republicans dropped racism in favor of even more LGBTphobia they'd dominate is detached from reality.

Those polls however don't measure minority groups, people of color, specifically migrants. If we measure, how many American Muslims support LGBT rights, and then break it down by education level, country of origin, will we see different results ?

Consider the fact that less people of color respond to any poll at all. Many of these new migrants, don't even speak English. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/01/polling-methods-are-changing-but-reporting-the-views-of-asian-americans-remains-a-challenge/

[OSR stands with Israel]

For instance, my parents are strongly socially conservative.



But they also hate banks, mildly supportive of Unions, and have a small respect for Bernie Sanders.

Yeah, I’m far more of a Reaganite than either of my parents for example . My dad thinks Reagan’s economic policies in many ways were more liberal than conservative since they were individualistic .

[jojoju1998]

Mods, please lock this thread.

Why? It's done a great job showing how many red avs would gladly throw the gays under the bus in exchange for their precious immigrants.

Keep it open.

LOL, Where is even one?

The LGBT agenda is the sacred cow of the Democratic Party, especially for the White ones.
Everything else is secondary and subservient to it.

I just think in my humble opinion, that discussion about LGBT issues need to take into consideration the experiences of POC, especially LGBT People of Color, and how their experiences are different or the same.


So how do LGBT Muslims feel ? How do they feel about their status ?

This I  think needs a far more nuanced discussion, than what we're having now. Unfortunately, I don't think the polls shows a accurate picture.

[ملكة كرينجيتوك]

I mean you are of the delusion that immigrant democratic voters are as socially liberal as the Democratic Party as a whole.  Like the corporal punishment thread , you found it hard to believe that Asian Democrats are more pro corporal punishment than White Republicans even though many Asian posters on here were saying so themselves .

The fact is that if you prioritize having a diverse society then yes you have to accept the fact you won’t be able to implement your social agenda without having some sort of backlash .

You're not wrong. Per se.

The thought process is that second generation, children of migrants, tend to be more secular and liberal ( at least in the US ) as they assimilate into American culture.

It should be noted that Evangelical Christianity is growing the most with Asian, and Hispanic communities. Fuller Seminary's faculty, half of them are Korean.

(Wasn't originally going to post in either of the USGD threads on Dearborn MI but it's too late now. Interesting that stereotypically Arab Dearborn has a councilmember with ancestry from northern South Asia).

Yeah there's a stereotype of Korean Americans being relatively hardcore Protestant Christians. My anecdotal experience was that some of my Korean American friends took more literal interpretations of the Bible than my Catholic-raised Vietnamese friends. Your thought process is broadly correct, and it explains a lot of why Asian Americans have become a D-leaning constituency following the Cold War.

I'm still waiting on you to give an example of a Muslim nation where LGBT people can live freely and openly... Provide me with one and I'll answer your question.

Hmm... Wiki says gay/lesbian sex was never criminalized in (post-Ottoman) Turkey or Indonesia. Right now SSM is only really a thing in Western Europe, countries that were settled by Western European colonizers, and Confucianist Asian states that lack international recognition.

[jojoju1998]

It's not even religious though. A lot of this is cultural. In more Communitarian societies, like in the Middle-east or South East Asia, there's certain expectations placed on the son and daughter, to keep up the family name, to be married to good families.

This is a religious thing, lol. Cultures are influenced by religion, and every single part of the LGBT movement is against Islam.

It also is in most forms of Christianity, except many Christians are ideological liberals first, and Christians second.

So what if one of the children happens, to be gay or Lesbian ? Oof. Awkward....

This makes the assumption that being "gay" or "lesbian" is something that just "happens" by random chance.

That first of all, this is something naturally found in humans, instead of what it is in reality, which is something most commonly transferred socially.

Then it makes the assumption that someone under this movement's influence must act according to their desires alone, without consideration for anything else.

Unfortunately, in many of these migrant communities, that discussion about LGBT identity, has not fully happened yet.

Alhamdulillah
We don't need this kind of "discussion".

Religion can also be influenced by Culture.


https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/07/26/political-and-social-views/

According to the Pew, American Muslims who are more educated, Younger, are less likely to be practicing, and they're more likely to be supportive of LGBT rights.


More nuance is needed though. American Muslims who are college educated and affluent, tend to be migrants from from wealthier countries.


This city has had migrants from poorer countries, more refugees.

There is a difference between a Bay Area Tech worker muslim and a muslim here. Culture can influence religion.

[gerritcole]

i truly hope the red avs don't flee this thread for greener pastures, we're having quite an enlightening conversation between different parts of the dem coalition which seems more tenuous than upon first glance

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So, as anyone who knows me well enough and has seen me talk about it before, I'm Muslim.

My attitude towards Pride flags in general is simply apathy. Bigger fish to fry, and I've never seen myself as LGBT. I'm sure there is at least one Muslim who at least  perceives themselves to be LGBT (at the very least some T), but it goes down wrongful paths to let that demographic dictate too much about the contours of this. It only empowers radicals who have the loudest voices within a numerically marginal community to control the public debate without the public having a veto.

Still, this is a warning to social liberals that pushing things too much on this front can cause backlash. Things like this could be the salvo in a changed culture war landscape in the future, so you want broad appeal. That requires discipline.

[jojoju1998]

i truly hope the red avs don't flee this thread for greener pastures, we're having quite an enlightening conversation between different parts of the dem coalition which seems more tenuous than upon first glance

The fracture in the Democratic Party is between the John Courtney Murray Liberals and the French Lacite Liberals.


I am a John Courtney Murray Liberal. The idea of multiculturalism, multi religion, religious freedom in the traditional American Sense, as developed by the American Catholic Theologian John Courtney Murray, that what ever problems a certain group might have, that it will lessen itself over time through education, assimilation, and cooperation.

And historically speaking this has been the case, American Muslims who are more educated, who come here on worker visas ( aka concentrated in California, NY, Virginia, ) tend to be more progressive on social issues compared to less educated Muslims, like this situation, full of refugees.


Some here are French Lacite Liberals, that in order to promote progress for the vast majority of peoples, that Religion has to be removed from public life. Including Islam. And " Evangelical " Christianity. This is why some here crow on and on about the decline of Christianity in the US, and in the West as a whole.

So, as anyone who knows me well enough and has seen me talk about it before, I'm Muslim.

My attitude towards Pride flags in general is simply apathy. Bigger fish to fry, and I've never seen myself as LGBT. I'm sure there is at least one Muslim who at least  perceives themselves to be LGBT (at the very least some T), but it goes down wrongful paths to let that demographic dictate too much about the contours of this. It only empowers radicals who have the loudest voices within a numerically marginal community to control the public debate without the public having a veto.

Still, this is a warning to social liberals that pushing things too much on this front can cause backlash. Things like this could be the salvo in a changed culture war landscape in the future, so you want broad appeal. That requires discipline.

Democrats have to be a John Courtney Murray. Multicultural. Tolerance. Leave each other alone.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

i truly hope the red avs don't flee this thread for greener pastures, we're having quite an enlightening conversation between different parts of the dem coalition which seems more tenuous than upon first glance

The fracture in the Democratic Party is between the John Courtney Murray Liberals and the French Lacite Liberals.


I am a John Courtney Murray Liberal. The idea of multiculturalism, multi religion, religious freedom in the traditional American Sense, as developed by the American Catholic Theologian John Courtney Murray, that what ever problems a certain group might have, that it will lessen itself over time through education, assimilation, and cooperation.

And historically speaking this has been the case, American Muslims who are more educated, who come here on worker visas ( aka concentrated in California, NY, Virginia, ) tend to be more progressive on social issues compared to less educated Muslims, like this situation, full of refugees.


Some here are French Lacite Liberals, that in order to promote progress for the vast majority of peoples, that Religion has to be removed from public life. Including Islam. And " Evangelical " Christianity. This is why some here crow on and on about the decline of Christianity in the US, and in the West as a whole.

So, as anyone who knows me well enough and has seen me talk about it before, I'm Muslim.

My attitude towards Pride flags in general is simply apathy. Bigger fish to fry, and I've never seen myself as LGBT. I'm sure there is at least one Muslim who at least  perceives themselves to be LGBT (at the very least some T), but it goes down wrongful paths to let that demographic dictate too much about the contours of this. It only empowers radicals who have the loudest voices within a numerically marginal community to control the public debate without the public having a veto.

Still, this is a warning to social liberals that pushing things too much on this front can cause backlash. Things like this could be the salvo in a changed culture war landscape in the future, so you want broad appeal. That requires discipline.

Democrats have to be a John Courtney Murray. Multicultural. Tolerance. Leave each other alone.

Live and let live ought to be the general goal. Some level of freedom for other groups (on par with what I would want for mine) is something I'm quite happy to defend, as long as my group gets the same. This however has been deeply undermined by recent developments.

The nonsense pushed by some in the LGBT movement worries me and loses the more radical ends of it some sympathy. Things like Latinx reflect an ignorance of language, and on the same principle, Arabic itself could be in the crosshairs. The idea of complete victory for one side in these culture wars scares me. I don't want drag shows banned. I don't want mandatory Pride even for those who object to it on moral terms. In this country, you have diversity of opinion. And the elements of the left who have turned against genuine diversity and show immense intolerance against those who disagree with them deserve to fail.

If this is a war, then we can and will fight back, against the enemies of diversity and what makes this nation great.

[jojoju1998]

It's not even religious though. A lot of this is cultural. In more Communitarian societies, like in the Middle-east or South East Asia, there's certain expectations placed on the son and daughter, to keep up the family name, to be married to good families.

This is a religious thing, lol. Cultures are influenced by religion, and every single part of the LGBT movement is against Islam.

It also is in most forms of Christianity, except many Christians are ideological liberals first, and Christians second.

So what if one of the children happens, to be gay or Lesbian ? Oof. Awkward....

This makes the assumption that being "gay" or "lesbian" is something that just "happens" by random chance.

That first of all, this is something naturally found in humans, instead of what it is in reality, which is something most commonly transferred socially.

Then it makes the assumption that someone under this movement's influence must act according to their desires alone, without consideration for anything else.

Unfortunately, in many of these migrant communities, that discussion about LGBT identity, has not fully happened yet.

Alhamdulillah
We don't need this kind of "discussion".

Religion can also be influenced by Culture.

Historically speaking, this is the case, that culture can influence certain religions.
This is not true for Islam, and very much not for this specific case.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/07/26/political-and-social-views/

According to the Pew, American Muslims who are more educated, Younger, are less likely to be practicing, and they're more likely to be supportive of LGBT rights.

More nuance is needed though. American Muslims who are college educated and affluent, tend to be migrants from from wealthier countries.

Sure, there are all sorts of people participating on Pew Research surveys who would call themselves Muslim, I don't deny this. We even have self-identifying "Muslims" who do not believe in God, and one of them posted in this very thread.

However, this does not mean there is no such thing as Islam, or a normative viewpoint on these issues. Theologically speaking, in the religion, there is no difference of opinion on the permissibility of actions supported by the LGBT movement.

This city has had migrants from poorer countries, more refugees.

There is a difference between a Bay Area Tech worker muslim and a muslim here. Culture can influence religion.

This is pretty different from the people

It should be pretty obvious where the people in this article get their moral convictions against the LGBT movement from, and it is disingenuous to pretend that this is primarily a result of Yemeni and Bangladeshi cultural chauvinism.

Would you say the same thing about Myanmar ? Or Papua New Guinea ? Myanmar is majority Bhuddist, while Papua New Guinea is majority Protestant. No one would think Myanmar's criminalization of same sex activity is in anyway a reflection of Bhuddist values. Sri Lanka's the same way. Are you going to claim that Bhuddism is at the root of Sri Lanka's anti LGBTQism ?

Solomon Islands ? Right. I don't think it's disingenuous to say that culture plays a role in LGBTQ issues.


The irony of it all is that Muslim Fundamentalist much like Christian Fundamentalists have forgotten about the very LGBT past of their respective religions.  Historians have researched this for years, of how Muslim leaders in the past would take on Male lovers, and even... young... male lovers.


And that the current anti LGBTQ laws in the Middle East actually had influence from...the West, especially Europe, especially the years of colonization by the European powers.

https://hpd.de/node/12315

Ironic isn't it ?

[John Dule]

What the f-ck is going on with people? Am I really one of the only people on Atlas who doesn't hold some form of bigotry? Do you all reject the principles of a heterogenous, multiracial democracy?

Clearly not, given your well-established indifference towards the rights of women and Muslims.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I'm still waiting on you to give an example of a Muslim nation where LGBT people can live freely and openly... Provide me with one and I'll answer your question.

Muslim nation amirite

[jojoju1998]

Would you say the same thing about Myanmar ? Or Papua New Guinea ? Myanmar is majority Bhuddist, while Papua New Guinea is majority Protestant. No one would think Myanmar's criminalization of same sex activity is in anyway a reflection of Bhuddist values. Sri Lanka's the same way. Are you going to claim that Bhuddism is at the root of Sri Lanka's anti LGBTQism ?

Solomon Islands ? Right. I don't think it's disingenuous to say that culture plays a role in LGBTQ issues.

I am not an expert on these lands and their laws on LGBTQ.

Naturally, human culture is against this idea, though. I wouldn't be surprised.

The irony of it all is that Muslim Fundamentalist much like Christian Fundamentalists have forgotten about the very LGBT past of their respective religions.  Historians have researched this for years, of how Muslim leaders in the past would take on Male lovers, and even... young... male lovers.

Well, it sounds like you've been fed lies, then.

The existence of certain deviant poets propped up by kuffar orientalists (especially in the Islamic Studies section of American universities, possibly government funded) attempting to spread ambiguity and weaken faith, once again, does not mean that Islam does not have a normative position on this topic.

There has been a push started by Emory University professor Scott Kugle shortly after 9/11 trying to cast doubt into this topic, as he made an argument and published it that sodomy is not allowed in Islam. This paper has been cited by almost everyone arguing that sodomy is allowed in the religion. Of course, this goes against explicit verses in the Qur'an condemning it, and has never been taken seriously by actual Muslims. In fact, it is well-known that this is a matter of which, if denied by someone in Islam, takes someone out of Islam (similarly, denying the existence of heaven and hell would take someone out of Islam).

If you want to read a little bit about the flaws in Mr. Kugle's argument, I suggest reading this paper.

And that the current anti LGBTQ laws in the Middle East actually had influence from...the West, especially Europe, especially the years of colonization by the European powers.

https://hpd.de/node/12315

Ironic isn't it ?

The real irony is that the fact your argument can even be made is because of a colonial mindset.

There's this idea that any movements against LGBT are influenced or caused by the Westerners. We can't think for ourselves, and are always being influenced by the West.

This is not true. We don't need Europeans help to be "homophobic" or "transphobic".
Our values come from God and God alone.

That's quite transparent.