FBI search warrant executed at Mar-a-Lago (Update: Trump Indicted!)

[President Johnson]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

[OSR stands with Israel]

snip

Oh my lord, this meme is beyond awesome! Especially "Jack", what Biden actually said during the 2020 campaign.

This news actually made my day, the first headline I read and is still one of the top stories even in Europe right now. Definitely caught me by surprise.

Quite telling how his cult and the entire Republican Party is triggered and how they're now attacking law enforcement which they pretend to support. Just stupid hypocrites. They launched a years-long smear campaign against Hillary Clinton for her handling of classified information that turned out meritless. But perfectly fine when Trump essentially steals classified info before leaving office. So will he have the stamina to testify for 11 hours before the House?

I know we had a similar debate to this a couple years back but if Trump didn’t give that info to anyone else is going after him worth risking further unrest and also opening up the precedent for future presidents to be investigated. These are questions I believe are important to take into account

Obama didn’t go after anyone in the Bush admin cause he didn’t want to open up that precedent . This is more than just Trump imo .


If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

No, the Justice Department and FBI should follow anything where is evidence of criminal behavior. Apparently this is the case here, why a judge approved the search warrant. Nobody should be above the law, not even former presidents.

Just because the Obama Administration should have prosecuted some bankers doesn't mean Trump should be left alone now. This was totally approriate, and blaming Biden is bizarre because it's unlikely he has even informed in advance. Unlike Trump, he doesn't interfere in the department's day-today-business because he believes independent law enforcement and the rule of law.

I don’t blame Biden here , I’m just asking whether consequences were considered when taking this action. I do not think prosecuting this crime is worth potential unrest as the sentence isn’t even that long for this to stop him from becoming president again . This actually could potentially even help Trump’s 2024 bid if it makes him look like a Martyr .

The best and really only way to hold Trump accountable is to find a way to politically destroy his popularity as otherwise making him look like a Martyr helps him not hurts him .

[MiddleRoad]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

[OSR stands with Israel]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

I will admit we probably do a lot of shady things when it comes to implementing our foreign policy and have since 1945 that could open up a lot of presidents for prosecution.

Despite that I think we have done far more good than bad for the world and I don’t want this precedent to undermine that . It’s the main thing I’m worried about really

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

I'm laughing at the idea that you think progressive voters in 2022 have any desire to defend Bill Clinton.

[President Johnson]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

I'm laughing at the idea that you think progressive voters in 2022 have any desire to defend Bill Clinton.

Yeah, if there was clear evidence, he should have been investigated (although it's quite known that his impeachment was just a political circus at the time). Trump's obstruction of justice and his "moral shortcomings" have been worse than Bubba's, and Republicans were still fine it. Heck, imagine if Obama did 10% of that. He would have been impeached more than twice.

[GeorgiaModerate]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blanche to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

[OSR stands with Israel]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blance to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

And Ford was right to pardon Nixon

[2016]

snip

Oh my lord, this meme is beyond awesome! Especially "Jack", what Biden actually said during the 2020 campaign.

This news actually made my day, the first headline I read and is still one of the top stories even in Europe right now. Definitely caught me by surprise.

Quite telling how his cult and the entire Republican Party is triggered and how they're now attacking law enforcement which they pretend to support. Just stupid hypocrites. They launched a years-long smear campaign against Hillary Clinton for her handling of classified information that turned out meritless. But perfectly fine when Trump essentially steals classified info before leaving office. So will he have the stamina to testify for 11 hours before the House?

I know we had a similar debate to this a couple years back but if Trump didn’t give that info to anyone else is going after him worth risking further unrest and also opening up the precedent for future presidents to be investigated. These are questions I believe are important to take into account

Obama didn’t go after anyone in the Bush admin cause he didn’t want to open up that precedent . This is more than just Trump imo .


If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

No, the Justice Department and FBI should follow anything where is evidence of criminal behavior. Apparently this is the case here, why a judge approved the search warrant. Nobody should be above the law, not even former presidents.

Just because the Obama Administration should have prosecuted some bankers doesn't mean Trump should be left alone now. This was totally approriate, and blaming Biden is bizarre because it's unlikely he has even informed in advance. Unlike Trump, he doesn't interfere in the department's day-today-business because he believes independent law enforcement and the rule of law.

I don’t blame Biden here , I’m just asking whether consequences were considered when taking this action. I do not think prosecuting this crime is worth potential unrest as the sentence isn’t even that long for this to stop him from becoming president again . This actually could potentially even help Trump’s 2024 bid if it makes him look like a Martyr .

The best and really only way to hold Trump accountable is to find a way to politically destroy his popularity as otherwise making him look like a Martyr helps him not hurts him .

OSR, do you actually really think deep inside your heart that Trumps Popularity can be destroyed?

I don't think it can. Trumps Popularity particularly among Republican Base Voters is so high it's like the Coronavirus. It will never go away. Maybe it would go away if he dies but not before.

[It’s so Joever]

snip

Oh my lord, this meme is beyond awesome! Especially "Jack", what Biden actually said during the 2020 campaign.

This news actually made my day, the first headline I read and is still one of the top stories even in Europe right now. Definitely caught me by surprise.

Quite telling how his cult and the entire Republican Party is triggered and how they're now attacking law enforcement which they pretend to support. Just stupid hypocrites. They launched a years-long smear campaign against Hillary Clinton for her handling of classified information that turned out meritless. But perfectly fine when Trump essentially steals classified info before leaving office. So will he have the stamina to testify for 11 hours before the House?

I know we had a similar debate to this a couple years back but if Trump didn’t give that info to anyone else is going after him worth risking further unrest and also opening up the precedent for future presidents to be investigated. These are questions I believe are important to take into account

Obama didn’t go after anyone in the Bush admin cause he didn’t want to open up that precedent . This is more than just Trump imo .


If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

No, the Justice Department and FBI should follow anything where is evidence of criminal behavior. Apparently this is the case here, why a judge approved the search warrant. Nobody should be above the law, not even former presidents.

Just because the Obama Administration should have prosecuted some bankers doesn't mean Trump should be left alone now. This was totally approriate, and blaming Biden is bizarre because it's unlikely he has even informed in advance. Unlike Trump, he doesn't interfere in the department's day-today-business because he believes independent law enforcement and the rule of law.

I don’t blame Biden here , I’m just asking whether consequences were considered when taking this action. I do not think prosecuting this crime is worth potential unrest as the sentence isn’t even that long for this to stop him from becoming president again . This actually could potentially even help Trump’s 2024 bid if it makes him look like a Martyr .

The best and really only way to hold Trump accountable is to find a way to politically destroy his popularity as otherwise making him look like a Martyr helps him not hurts him .

OSR, do you actually really think deep inside your heart that Trumps Popularity can be destroyed?

I don't think it can. Trumps Popularity particularly among Republican Base Voters is so high it's like the Coronavirus. It will never go away. Maybe it would go away if he dies but not before.

At least you admit Trump can do anything and it wouldn’t change your opinion of him.

[GeorgiaModerate]

snip

Oh my lord, this meme is beyond awesome! Especially "Jack", what Biden actually said during the 2020 campaign.

This news actually made my day, the first headline I read and is still one of the top stories even in Europe right now. Definitely caught me by surprise.

Quite telling how his cult and the entire Republican Party is triggered and how they're now attacking law enforcement which they pretend to support. Just stupid hypocrites. They launched a years-long smear campaign against Hillary Clinton for her handling of classified information that turned out meritless. But perfectly fine when Trump essentially steals classified info before leaving office. So will he have the stamina to testify for 11 hours before the House?

I know we had a similar debate to this a couple years back but if Trump didn’t give that info to anyone else is going after him worth risking further unrest and also opening up the precedent for future presidents to be investigated. These are questions I believe are important to take into account

Obama didn’t go after anyone in the Bush admin cause he didn’t want to open up that precedent . This is more than just Trump imo .


If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

No, the Justice Department and FBI should follow anything where is evidence of criminal behavior. Apparently this is the case here, why a judge approved the search warrant. Nobody should be above the law, not even former presidents.

Just because the Obama Administration should have prosecuted some bankers doesn't mean Trump should be left alone now. This was totally approriate, and blaming Biden is bizarre because it's unlikely he has even informed in advance. Unlike Trump, he doesn't interfere in the department's day-today-business because he believes independent law enforcement and the rule of law.

I don’t blame Biden here , I’m just asking whether consequences were considered when taking this action. I do not think prosecuting this crime is worth potential unrest as the sentence isn’t even that long for this to stop him from becoming president again . This actually could potentially even help Trump’s 2024 bid if it makes him look like a Martyr .

The best and really only way to hold Trump accountable is to find a way to politically destroy his popularity as otherwise making him look like a Martyr helps him not hurts him .

OSR, do you actually really think deep inside your heart that Trumps Popularity can be destroyed?

I don't think it can. Trumps Popularity particularly among Republican Base Voters is so high it's like the Coronavirus. It will never go away. Maybe it would go away if he dies but not before.

At least you admit Trump can do anything and it wouldn’t change your opinion of him.

https://twitter.com/SpiroAgnewGhost/status/1557044445895282690

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blance to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

And Ford was right to pardon Nixon

I like Gerald Ford, but no, pardoning Nixon was a terrible idea. The lack of accountability that occurred with Nixon is part of why we're dealing with all of Trump's s***.

[OSR stands with Israel]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blance to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

And Ford was right to pardon Nixon

I like Gerald Ford, but no, pardoning Nixon was a terrible idea. The lack of accountability that occurred with Nixon is part of why we're dealing with all of Trump's s***.

No the reason why we are unable to deal with Trump is cause nobody has found a way to break his popularity with right of center voters in this nation . Do that and he is finished

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

🍿 🍿 🍿

[dead0man]

Complete and total nothing burger. Of all the problems with Trump and his presidency, the fact that he put classified documents in his pocket is supposed to matter? A better question is why the government is so desperate to hide so much from people of the United States- and why the populace is fine with it.

things aren't classified to hide it "from the people of the United States".  Things are classified because, in theory, they would provide information to the enemy that would be detrimental to us or our allies.  While it is true, most things that are "classified" probably don't need to be, but that's an administration/bureaucracy/better safe than sorry type situation, not some conspiracy to harm (or protect) a specific group or individual.

[2016]

snip

Oh my lord, this meme is beyond awesome! Especially "Jack", what Biden actually said during the 2020 campaign.

This news actually made my day, the first headline I read and is still one of the top stories even in Europe right now. Definitely caught me by surprise.

Quite telling how his cult and the entire Republican Party is triggered and how they're now attacking law enforcement which they pretend to support. Just stupid hypocrites. They launched a years-long smear campaign against Hillary Clinton for her handling of classified information that turned out meritless. But perfectly fine when Trump essentially steals classified info before leaving office. So will he have the stamina to testify for 11 hours before the House?

I know we had a similar debate to this a couple years back but if Trump didn’t give that info to anyone else is going after him worth risking further unrest and also opening up the precedent for future presidents to be investigated. These are questions I believe are important to take into account

Obama didn’t go after anyone in the Bush admin cause he didn’t want to open up that precedent . This is more than just Trump imo .


If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

No, the Justice Department and FBI should follow anything where is evidence of criminal behavior. Apparently this is the case here, why a judge approved the search warrant. Nobody should be above the law, not even former presidents.

Just because the Obama Administration should have prosecuted some bankers doesn't mean Trump should be left alone now. This was totally approriate, and blaming Biden is bizarre because it's unlikely he has even informed in advance. Unlike Trump, he doesn't interfere in the department's day-today-business because he believes independent law enforcement and the rule of law.

I don’t blame Biden here , I’m just asking whether consequences were considered when taking this action. I do not think prosecuting this crime is worth potential unrest as the sentence isn’t even that long for this to stop him from becoming president again . This actually could potentially even help Trump’s 2024 bid if it makes him look like a Martyr .

The best and really only way to hold Trump accountable is to find a way to politically destroy his popularity as otherwise making him look like a Martyr helps him not hurts him .

OSR, do you actually really think deep inside your heart that Trumps Popularity can be destroyed?

I don't think it can. Trumps Popularity particularly among Republican Base Voters is so high it's like the Coronavirus. It will never go away. Maybe it would go away if he dies but not before.

At least you admit Trump can do anything and it wouldn’t change your opinion of him.

What's the Point? In my uttomost Opinion indicting or convicting Trump would do absolutely nothing to diminish his Popularity.

You would need to convict his entire Family to have the neccessary side effect. If Trump is convicted that doesn't automatically mean that Trumpism or Trump Culture dies. He gained too much influence.

His Son Donald Trump Jr., his Daughter Ivanka Trump, they are both National Material.

I am absolutely certain Ivanka is going to run for Political Office, maybe for Florida Governor in 2026.

[President Johnson]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blance to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

And Ford was right to pardon Nixon

I like Gerald Ford, but no, pardoning Nixon was a terrible idea. The lack of accountability that occurred with Nixon is part of why we're dealing with all of Trump's s***.

No the reason why we are unable to deal with Trump is cause nobody has found a way to break his popularity with right of center voters in this nation . Do that and he is finished

But wouldn't you say popularity is irrelevant in that regard? Evidence of criminal behavior shouldn't care about that. Otherwise, you basically set the standard that anyone who is popular with a certain segment of the population (Trump is not really popular across the country, or outside the Republican Party), can pretty much get away with everything.

[2016]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blance to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

And Ford was right to pardon Nixon

I like Gerald Ford, but no, pardoning Nixon was a terrible idea. The lack of accountability that occurred with Nixon is part of why we're dealing with all of Trump's s***.

No the reason why we are unable to deal with Trump is cause nobody has found a way to break his popularity with right of center voters in this nation . Do that and he is finished

You are disillusional and so are other "NeverTrumpers" to even think about of that Trumps Popularity can be broken.

IT CAN'T AND IT WON'T!

People have to deal with it!

[It’s so Joever]

snip

Oh my lord, this meme is beyond awesome! Especially "Jack", what Biden actually said during the 2020 campaign.

This news actually made my day, the first headline I read and is still one of the top stories even in Europe right now. Definitely caught me by surprise.

Quite telling how his cult and the entire Republican Party is triggered and how they're now attacking law enforcement which they pretend to support. Just stupid hypocrites. They launched a years-long smear campaign against Hillary Clinton for her handling of classified information that turned out meritless. But perfectly fine when Trump essentially steals classified info before leaving office. So will he have the stamina to testify for 11 hours before the House?

I know we had a similar debate to this a couple years back but if Trump didn’t give that info to anyone else is going after him worth risking further unrest and also opening up the precedent for future presidents to be investigated. These are questions I believe are important to take into account

Obama didn’t go after anyone in the Bush admin cause he didn’t want to open up that precedent . This is more than just Trump imo .


If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

No, the Justice Department and FBI should follow anything where is evidence of criminal behavior. Apparently this is the case here, why a judge approved the search warrant. Nobody should be above the law, not even former presidents.

Just because the Obama Administration should have prosecuted some bankers doesn't mean Trump should be left alone now. This was totally approriate, and blaming Biden is bizarre because it's unlikely he has even informed in advance. Unlike Trump, he doesn't interfere in the department's day-today-business because he believes independent law enforcement and the rule of law.

I don’t blame Biden here , I’m just asking whether consequences were considered when taking this action. I do not think prosecuting this crime is worth potential unrest as the sentence isn’t even that long for this to stop him from becoming president again . This actually could potentially even help Trump’s 2024 bid if it makes him look like a Martyr .

The best and really only way to hold Trump accountable is to find a way to politically destroy his popularity as otherwise making him look like a Martyr helps him not hurts him .

OSR, do you actually really think deep inside your heart that Trumps Popularity can be destroyed?

I don't think it can. Trumps Popularity particularly among Republican Base Voters is so high it's like the Coronavirus. It will never go away. Maybe it would go away if he dies but not before.

At least you admit Trump can do anything and it wouldn’t change your opinion of him.

What's the Point? In my uttomost Opinion indicting or convicting Trump would do absolutely nothing to diminish his Popularity.

You would need to convict his entire Family to have the neccessary side effect. If Trump is convicted that doesn't automatically mean that Trumpism or Trump Culture dies. He gained too much influence.

His Son Donald Trump Jr., his Daughter Ivanka Trump, they are both National Material.

I am absolutely certain Ivanka is going to run for Political Office, maybe for Florida Governor in 2026.

Oh I was partially talking about you personally but you are right on the wider level ofc.

[OSR stands with Israel]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blance to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

And Ford was right to pardon Nixon

I like Gerald Ford, but no, pardoning Nixon was a terrible idea. The lack of accountability that occurred with Nixon is part of why we're dealing with all of Trump's s***.

No the reason why we are unable to deal with Trump is cause nobody has found a way to break his popularity with right of center voters in this nation . Do that and he is finished

But wouldn't you say popularity is irrelevant in that regard? Evidence of criminal behavior shouldn't care about that. Otherwise, you basically set the standard that anyone who is popular with a certain segment of the population (Trump is not really popular across the country, or outside the Republican Party), can pretty much get away with everything.

In theory yes but you have to take into account what the reality is to. What are the consequences of not prosecuting  for this crime vs what are the consequences you will face for doing so and I think for this crime the consequences of prosecuting would be greater and it actually could help his chances of winning in 2024 .

[OSR stands with Israel]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blance to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

And Ford was right to pardon Nixon

I like Gerald Ford, but no, pardoning Nixon was a terrible idea. The lack of accountability that occurred with Nixon is part of why we're dealing with all of Trump's s***.

No the reason why we are unable to deal with Trump is cause nobody has found a way to break his popularity with right of center voters in this nation . Do that and he is finished

You are disillusional and so are other "NeverTrumpers" to even think about of that Trumps Popularity can be broken.

IT CAN'T AND IT WON'T!

People have to deal with it!

Don’t you think DeSantis can beat Trump in a primary too , as that’s what I am talking about

[Horus]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blance to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

And Ford was right to pardon Nixon

I like Gerald Ford, but no, pardoning Nixon was a terrible idea. The lack of accountability that occurred with Nixon is part of why we're dealing with all of Trump's s***.

No the reason why we are unable to deal with Trump is cause nobody has found a way to break his popularity with right of center voters in this nation . Do that and he is finished

You are disillusional and so are other "NeverTrumpers" to even think about of that Trumps Popularity can be broken.

IT CAN'T AND IT WON'T!

People have to deal with it!

Yeah, this isn't cult like at all.

[wbrocks67]

Once again, Trump has the warrant. He could quite literally just tell us what he knows and what they came for. But he isn't... for clearly obvious reasons.

Not sure why the press is not repeating that fact over and over instead of giving ridiculous takes.

[Virginiá]

But wouldn't you say popularity is irrelevant in that regard? Evidence of criminal behavior shouldn't care about that. Otherwise, you basically set the standard that anyone who is popular with a certain segment of the population (Trump is not really popular across the country, or outside the Republican Party), can pretty much get away with everything.

^^

Crimes by well-known politicians who are popular with one or more parties should not be swept under a rug because it may or may not cause a crisis of faith in the government. I'll also note that this person's party has already spent years manufacturing a crisis of faith in government in general purely to distract from said person's misdeeds. Not including all the other bad-faith rhetoric over the years designed to diminish confidence in the government's ability to do things.

At this point, I say just let the chips fall where they may. This country already has a hard time charging & convicting corrupt politicians, and on the rare occasion that actually happens, they stand a good chance of being either pardoned or let go by the SCOTUS. We don't need to be avoiding indictments altogether out of fear. And if this country can't handle it, then I guess we'll find out.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Whether it harms or helps Trump's popularity, or harms or helps his chances in 2024, is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. 

If there is probable cause that he committed a crime, he should be investigated.  If there is sufficient evidence that he committed a crime such that a conviction is plausible, he should be indicted.  If the evidence is sufficient to convince a jury, he should be convicted.

It doesn't matter who "he" is in the above paragraph.  You can substitute any other person in the country for Trump, and the above still holds. 

If political constraints are the main driver in deciding whether to prosecute or not prosecute someone, then you've become a banana republic.