FBI search warrant executed at Mar-a-Lago (Update: Trump Indicted!)

[GeorgiaModerate]

Well.  I went out for my evening walk and came home to find this.  What a development!

A request: please be civil to each other in your comments.  This is momentous enough that there's plenty to discuss without sniping.

[GeorgiaModerate]

OK, having caught up on the news, this is the most interesting point I've seen:

https://twitter.com/renato_mariotti/status/1556796851831054336

A long time ago I worked in the defense contracting business, before I escaped into the real world.  I worked on a number of classified projects, and at one point was the contract security officer for the small company I then worked for.   So I know a little bit about this, although to be perfectly clear my knowledge is a few decades old, and far from the top levels of security.  It's quite possible that things have changed over the years, but back then I would agree that most incidents of mishandling classified material (deliberate or accidental) were not prosecuted. 

Such incidents would probably cause a person to lose a security clearance, and there might be additional disciplinary action at the personal level (getting suspended or fired) and/or company level (financial or other contractual penalities).  But the only situations likely to lead to a criminal prosecution either involved deliberate disclosure to a third party or contained evidence of some other crime (e.g. contract fraud).

[GeorgiaModerate]

Here's a blast from the past:

https://twitter.com/SarahHuckabee/status/794255968448020480

[GeorgiaModerate]

Reminder that Trump has gone through multiple Democrat investigations and not ONCE been found guilty or even indicted.

Trump is invincible. Also, abolish the FBI.

Reminder that Hillary has gone through multiple Republican investigations and not ONCE been found guilty or even indicted.

She hasn't gone through close to what Trump has. Benghazi, emails and that's it.

Check back with us after Trump has testified before Congress in an 11-hour hearing.

[GeorgiaModerate]

OK, here is some real beef in my book rather than padding. Andy writes for a conservative albeit Trump skeptical rag, but he is a very smart lawyer with common sense who is most definitely not a hack, or to put it another way, his take and mine on matters largely coincide.

Yes, the pay wall shuts me out too, but I suspect his thesis, is that yeah, nobody would be such a drama queen over where a bunch of boring paper that nobody will ever read is stored, and so thus the game being hunted is much more significant. It seems to me the idea is to find out what Trump and the hard core kooks were talking about when, you know, like Steve Bannon.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/08/the-fbis-mar-a-lago-raid-its-about-the-capitol-riot-not-the-mishandling-of-classified-information/?utm_source=onesignal&utm_medium=push&utm_campaign=article

That is a good point. If the documents seized were random things Trump took without much significance, you'd like he or his lawyers would have worked with the FBI to return them and not go the route of a raid. I don't think this is any type of partisan attack where Biden used the FBI to go after Trump. Perhaps there is more to this.

Yeah, there's no way this is a partisan attack. Biden is smarter than that, knowing that it *would* come out one way or another if he was somehow involved or pushed for this. He's been in the game long enough to know to stay out of the DOJ's business.

It wasn't politically motivated unless the DCCC was in charge today.

It should also be noted that FBI Director Christopher Wray, who would certainly be in the loop on this, was appointed by Trump.

[GeorgiaModerate]

The same Republicans who think this is "Banana Republic" abuse by the FBI were okay with every incident of a black person strangled in the street or shot to death over "resisting".

There is a certain segment of the Republican Party that believes the cops should go after criminals -- but they define "criminals" as a distinct class of society (generally overlapping with  racial or economic groups) instead of "people who commit crimes".

[GeorgiaModerate]

If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

We all saw the photos of clear plastic boxes full of documents being packed up from the White House on Jan 19-20, 2021.  Why not try to find out whether or not he was illegally absconding with papers that were subject to the Presidential Records Act?

It'd be nice to hold Trump accountable for literally any of his crimes, but why focus on one specific avenue and ignore all others?

Cause of the precedent you would set . Like I said should Bush have been prosecuted for Guantanamo Bay or Obama for drones

Why not?  If crimes have been committed, they should be impartially investigated and prosecuted if necessary.  Anything else is a deeply troubling excuse for abuse of power.

Maybe this can actually set a precedent that as president you can't just do illegal stuff and let off the hook. Prosecuters should follow facts and the evidence. If a future Democratic president does something unlawful, he or she should be equally investigated.

Do you feel Bill Clinton was guilty of obstruction of Justice during the Lewinsky scandal and should’ve been removed from office? I’m not talking about the lying under oath charge in that case - I am specifically asking about the obstruction charge.

If he was guilty then, should he be prosecuted now?

You’re setting the precedent after all that Presidents can be charged with crimes after they leave office, for things done in office. If we set that precedent, it must be applied retroactively to Clinton and Bush Jr (IE Bush’s lies for the Iraq War).

Well, part of the rationale for the DOJ's opinion that sitting Presidents should not be charged while in office is that they could then be charged after leaving office, even for crimes committed in office.  If you can't charge them while in office or after they're out of office, it means they have carte blanche to commit any crimes they want during their terms without fear of consequence.  Is that really what you want?  It would be a complete affront to the rule of law; NOBODY is above the law.  In the case of a sitting President, justice may be delayed to avoid disrupting the functioning of government, but it cannot be denied entirely.

If the DOJ thinks they can make a case against Clinton for obstruction, or Bush for the Iraq War, then by all means they should bring it.  It's worth noting that the DOJ had a draft indictment of Nixon for conspiracy to defraud the United States (the same crime the other Watergate conspirators were convicted of) ready to go after his resignation, but it was mooted by Ford's pardon.

[GeorgiaModerate]

snip

Oh my lord, this meme is beyond awesome! Especially "Jack", what Biden actually said during the 2020 campaign.

This news actually made my day, the first headline I read and is still one of the top stories even in Europe right now. Definitely caught me by surprise.

Quite telling how his cult and the entire Republican Party is triggered and how they're now attacking law enforcement which they pretend to support. Just stupid hypocrites. They launched a years-long smear campaign against Hillary Clinton for her handling of classified information that turned out meritless. But perfectly fine when Trump essentially steals classified info before leaving office. So will he have the stamina to testify for 11 hours before the House?

I know we had a similar debate to this a couple years back but if Trump didn’t give that info to anyone else is going after him worth risking further unrest and also opening up the precedent for future presidents to be investigated. These are questions I believe are important to take into account

Obama didn’t go after anyone in the Bush admin cause he didn’t want to open up that precedent . This is more than just Trump imo .


If you want to go criminally after him , just focus on Jan 6th imo and nothing else

No, the Justice Department and FBI should follow anything where is evidence of criminal behavior. Apparently this is the case here, why a judge approved the search warrant. Nobody should be above the law, not even former presidents.

Just because the Obama Administration should have prosecuted some bankers doesn't mean Trump should be left alone now. This was totally approriate, and blaming Biden is bizarre because it's unlikely he has even informed in advance. Unlike Trump, he doesn't interfere in the department's day-today-business because he believes independent law enforcement and the rule of law.

I don’t blame Biden here , I’m just asking whether consequences were considered when taking this action. I do not think prosecuting this crime is worth potential unrest as the sentence isn’t even that long for this to stop him from becoming president again . This actually could potentially even help Trump’s 2024 bid if it makes him look like a Martyr .

The best and really only way to hold Trump accountable is to find a way to politically destroy his popularity as otherwise making him look like a Martyr helps him not hurts him .

OSR, do you actually really think deep inside your heart that Trumps Popularity can be destroyed?

I don't think it can. Trumps Popularity particularly among Republican Base Voters is so high it's like the Coronavirus. It will never go away. Maybe it would go away if he dies but not before.

At least you admit Trump can do anything and it wouldn’t change your opinion of him.

https://twitter.com/SpiroAgnewGhost/status/1557044445895282690

[GeorgiaModerate]

Whether it harms or helps Trump's popularity, or harms or helps his chances in 2024, is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. 

If there is probable cause that he committed a crime, he should be investigated.  If there is sufficient evidence that he committed a crime such that a conviction is plausible, he should be indicted.  If the evidence is sufficient to convince a jury, he should be convicted.

It doesn't matter who "he" is in the above paragraph.  You can substitute any other person in the country for Trump, and the above still holds. 

If political constraints are the main driver in deciding whether to prosecute or not prosecute someone, then you've become a banana republic.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/tracy_walder/status/1557007307183357952

Trump (or his representative on site) should have received a copy of the search warrant.  I believe it would list the statutes under which evidence was being searched for.  As the recipient, Trump is free to make the warrant publicly available.

[GeorgiaModerate]

I can't believe I'm going against the thread grain for once, but by my appraisal, it's perfectly reasonable to demand an explanation when such unprecedented actions are taken.  It doesn't necessarily mean that Trump and friends aren't guilty of criminal actions, but it speaks more to the transparency that should exist.  

It is a longstanding DOJ policy to not publish search warrants unless/until an indictment is announced.  This is only fair to those being searched. 

As others have said, Trump is free to publish the warrant if he wants to.  That he chooses not to publish it makes a statement of its own.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/RealKyleMorris/status/1557124532485427201
Not sure if this is the best place to put this but the feds took Scott Perry's phone

I think it's more likely to be J6-related, so I mentioned it in the megathread.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/yarbro/status/1557136280785403904

[GeorgiaModerate]

The warrant isn't going to tell us anything we don't already know from reporting.

Not true.  It would list the statutes under which the FBI demonstrated probable cause to the judge, i.e. it would tell us what crimes were being investigated.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Trump could release the warrant publically.

Trump will never release the warrant. He's going to play this up as a witchhunt of epic proportions and claim that the Republican appointed FBI direction is somehow in cohorts with the Biden Administration to take him down before the election.

Releasing the warrant that likely contains information about the potential crimes he is being investigated for would squash that narrative.

If/when the warrant is released, Trump will claim it's fake and it's not what he was served, which he'll never release and people will believe him.

Will it ever been made public if Trump doesn’t release it himself?

If there is an indictment based on evidence discovered in the search, I believe the warrant and supporting docs would be filed with the indictment (but IANAL).

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1557379459874955266

This talking point is all over RW media today.  From it I infer that whatever's in the boxes includes something bad for Trump, since there would be little point in planting anything that was not.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/NormEisen/status/1557394378037018624

Lots of informative details in the linked article, which claims to be sourced from "two senior government officials".

[GeorgiaModerate]

FBI agents, as well as U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland and FBI Director Chris Wray, are experiencing an uptick in death threats in the wake of the raid at former President Trump’s residence at Mar-a-Lago in Florida, according to sources speaking with Fox News.

Authorities monitoring social media posts are spotting a significant increase in death threats aimed towards agents, Wray and Garland. These threats are reported to continue at a steady pace online.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-agents-garland-wray-see-increased-death-threats-trump-mar-a-lago-raid-sources

[GeorgiaModerate]

This is why we need immediate oversight and answers from the Justice Department on why the raid was conducted.  The DOJ seems to be downplaying the raid, which is not a very smart political calculation.   

Well they're not supposed to be political.

Merrick Garland is a political appointee.  Any raid/investigation into a former president is going to attract major political attention, so he should have been out in front of this with a major press conference the day after the raid was conducted.  Staying silent makes it seem like they're hiding something. 

If this had occurred, the right would be screaming that Garland was making a political show by announcing the raid.

[GeorgiaModerate]

If Trump was mishandling classified information, then yes, the FBI should go retrieve that information.

If Trump was in possession of classified information, there's no reason that couldn't have been resolved cooperatively (or at most with a subpoena.)  Trump voluntarily surrended 15 boxes of documents to the National Archives back in January. 

Sure. No one knows yet what the warrant was for, but I highly doubt the FBI raids a former president's house if there was not something serious to it. I do not believe the conspiracies that somehow Biden is pushing the FBI to take out Trump before the next election. Biden probably wants to run against Trump again.

This is why we need immediate oversight and answers from the Justice Department on why the raid was conducted.  The DOJ seems to be downplaying the raid, which is not a very smart political calculation.   

Why can't Trump just tell us?

Tell us what?  That the FBI is on a fishing expedition and showed up to Mar-a-Lago to collect every piece of paper they could get their hands on?  He's already said that

He has a copy of the warrant and can release it.

As multiple posters have already said, it's unlikely the warrant contains any information as to why the search was conducted.

This is possible; however, if so then Trump should release the warrant and demonstrate that it's the case.  Just saying that it doesn't contain anything useful is meaningless.

After all, if it doesn't have anything meaningful, why would he want to keep it hidden?

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/daithaigilbert/status/1557442940384985090

[GeorgiaModerate]

If there were any actual misconduct by the FBI involved in the search, Trump's lawyers would be going to court about it.  Unsubstantiated claims on cable networks or social media mean exactly nothing.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/BradMossEsq/status/1557762258901651457

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/SpiroAgnewGhost/status/1557770347260194816

[GeorgiaModerate]

Could also be about the shooting in Cincinnati.

Or both.