This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[Filuwaúrdjan]

McGovern must believe she can win, and Whitley isn’t exactly projecting strength, but I’m surprised that she’s so confident - Birkenhead CLP never struck me as a progress friendly place.

Well, the previous MP was Frank Field and the one before him was Edmund Dell, so historically at least it isn't averse to selecting people on the right-wing of the Party. My general observation would be that most CLPs can pick someone of most factional positions in a reasonably fair selection context, and that the tendency to see this or that CLP as a fiefdom of a particular faction is usually wrong.

[Wiswylfen]

I mean, could you? How exactly??

Campbell went on to say he didn't *really* believe all this anyway, so not sure what the fuss is about.

In the same way that any significant event not happening or happening differently would have consequences down the line, not an argument specific to the 2010 Labour leadership contest.

[Blair]

Unless Alastair Campbell could convince David Miliband to have talked to his colleagues more often he still would have lost; various parts of THIGMOO like to forget he lost because he failed to get 4 MPs from the middle of the party to give him a 2nd preference.

I’m never sure if he lost among affiliates and failed to do well enough with members to compensate because he was seen as too New Labour, or because he was seen as dull/wooden- it’s quite funny how much to the left Ed was able to run considering he’d served just as closely in New Labour as DM had!

DM should have made his decision in 2009; either challenge Gordon or resign and spend a year ‘discovering’ himself on the backbenches.

[Coldstream]

McGovern must believe she can win, and Whitley isn’t exactly projecting strength, but I’m surprised that she’s so confident - Birkenhead CLP never struck me as a progress friendly place.

Well, the previous MP was Frank Field and the one before him was Edmund Dell, so historically at least it isn't averse to selecting people on the right-wing of the Party. My general observation would be that most CLPs can pick someone of most factional positions in a reasonably fair selection context, and that the tendency to see this or that CLP as a fiefdom of a particular faction is usually wrong.

If you recall, the CLP also rather brutally and publicly turned on Field at the end of his career, and were one of the strongest redoubts of Corbynism in those years. Granted many of them have been expelled, but some of the rank and file will be around - and I’m surprised if you think it’s wrong that McGovern’s political positioning is a hindrance to her in that seat.

[CumbrianLefty]

Yes, but that was partly because Field became *so* right wing even most of his former backers locally washed their hands of him. Before that was the case, there were two serious attempts to oust him in 1989 and 1991 - but both ultimately failed (and even though he needed national party intervention after the first instance, it was equally clear that Field had some strong local support)

Though it should also be remembered that back in 1979 he was if anything considered something of a left winger (even if a slightly heterodox one) due to his stint with the Child Poverty Action Group - and was quite possibly a bit of a reaction against his unabashedly right wing predecessor Dell (who duly decamped to the SDP a couple of years after standing down as an MP)

[Coldstream]

Yes, but that was partly because Field became *so* right wing even most of his former backers locally washed their hands of him. Before that was the case, there were two serious attempts to oust him in 1989 and 1991 - but both ultimately failed (and even though he needed national party intervention after the first instance, it was equally clear that Field had some strong local support)

Though it should also be remembered that back in 1979 he was if anything considered something of a left winger (even if a slightly heterodox one) due to his stint with the Child Poverty Action Group - and was quite possibly a bit of a reaction against his unabashedly right wing predecessor Dell (who duly decamped to the SDP a couple of years after standing down as an MP)

Though they quite plainly have large differences - I seriously doubt the average Corbynite would
seea meaningful distinction between Frank Field & Ali McGovern. Most people don’t pay anywhere near enough attention. Whitley = solid SCG type, McGovern = Progress/LFI. I can’t see many people who’d go to the trouble of dispatching Field and then be happy with McGovern coming in - unless Birkenhead is a hidden lair of remainers.

[Blair]

Ha I mean I was going to say I was the type who would have not supported Field in 2019 but would vote for AM over MW in a selection!

It's apples & oranges but it's worth noting that Liverpool West Derby very nearly voted for a first term councillor who was a former bag carrier over their sitting SCG MP earlier this year.

It's no longer tracked to the degree it was in the JC years but I wonder how much churn there has been in CLPs with people leaving; both among the hardcore officer groups (people who were branch chairs, attended every CLP meeting etc) and the paper membership types who could be persuaded to turn up for important votes.

But I don't know enough about Birkenhead; seems around 500 or 600 people voted in 2019 which suggests a CLP size of above 1000 maybe?

[CumbrianLefty]

Margaret Greenwood, retiring MP for nearby Wirral West, has backed Whitley in this battle (which is not likely to surprise many) I don't know if McGovern will go for this vacancy if she fails in Birkenhead - but she has confirmed she is not interested in the new Ellesmere Port/Bromborough seat, so that one has already been decided as going to the current Ellesmere Port/Neston MP Justin Madders.

[Coldstream]

Ha I mean I was going to say I was the type who would have not supported Field in 2019 but would vote for AM over MW in a selection!

It's apples & oranges but it's worth noting that Liverpool West Derby very nearly voted for a first term councillor who was a former bag carrier over their sitting SCG MP earlier this year.

It's no longer tracked to the degree it was in the JC years but I wonder how much churn there has been in CLPs with people leaving; both among the hardcore officer groups (people who were branch chairs, attended every CLP meeting etc) and the paper membership types who could be persuaded to turn up for important votes.

But I don't know enough about Birkenhead; seems around 500 or 600 people voted in 2019 which suggests a CLP size of above 1000 maybe?

With respect, someone who posts on a politics forum like us is hardly representative of even the people who go to CLP meetings - most people’s engagement is no more detailed than Corbyn good vs Corbyn bad.

[CumbrianLefty]

I think that is slightly patronising tbh, especially of people who *do* go to meetings.

Even amongst those who don't, *some* can be strikingly well informed (there are in fact other reasons for not being an active party member than "can't be bothered")

[Coldstream]

I think that is slightly patronising tbh, especially of people who *do* go to meetings.

Even amongst those who don't, *some* can be strikingly well informed (there are in fact other reasons for not being an active party member than "can't be bothered")

1. It’s not patronising, there’s nothing to criticise people for not being engaged - it’s a statement of fact, most aren’t. I don’t think the fact I am engaged gives me any form of superiority, do you? Is that why you think it’s critical? If anything we’re the strange ones.

2. You seriously need to go to more CLP meetings if you honestly believe the average person there would care about something as trivial as the differences between Field & McGovern.  

[CumbrianLefty]

I've been to both meetings and selection contests in my time - and one thing that I can assure you of is some people getting very wound up about relatively minor differences. Why do you think there is so much factionalism in the first place, or indeed all that splitting on both the far left and far right?

[Coldstream]

I've been to both meetings and selection contests in my time - and one thing that I can assure you of is some people getting very wound up about relatively minor differences. Why do you think there is so much factionalism in the first place, or indeed all that splitting on both the far left and far right?

People in a selection contest are more likely to get wound up that the candidate is from the wrong side of town, rather than their views on quantitative easing.

On factionalism, how many members would have identified with a faction beyond Corbyn or not Corbyn 2015-19? Aside from a few hundred ultra-online weirdos in Open Labour I doubt anyone did.  Just look at the NEC results if you require proof, the two main factions get 8/9 and 1 goes to the rest - and that’s only cos everyone loves Ann Black. When she retires it’ll be 9/9 for the main two.

[Blair]

The issue which makes it all harder is that the numbers of people taking part in each different part of party democracy varies so much so the factional lense becomes much clearer in smaller turnout elections- the reason why NEC elections are small I thought was because it’s a contest between two mailing lists.

I try to have the rather reductive view that most CLP people have the same voting habits as people you meet on the doorstep e.g strange! I know someone who didn’t vote for YC because of what Ed did 100 years ago over Baby P and I know someone who was a Starmer/Burgon voter in 2020 because they thought Keir would win over the right wing press and Burgon was a ‘decent guy’.

I am again not normal but I’ve been in selection meetings and nominations where I did not know how I was going to vote!

[JimJamUK]

I try to have the rather reductive view that most CLP people have the same voting habits as people you meet on the doorstep e.g strange! I know someone who didn’t vote for YC because of what Ed did 100 years ago over Baby P and I know someone who was a Starmer/Burgon voter in 2020 because they thought Keir would win over the right wing press and Burgon was a ‘decent guy’.

By way of example, in the 2020 Labour deputy leadership election there were 3 candidates left when the 65000 votes from hard right Ian Murray were transferred. Despite the presence of 2 much more popular mainstream candidates, 4000 of them actively chose to preference hard left Richard Burgon. People are just weird, and it’s not just a rounding error share of them.

[Leading Political Consultant Ma Anand Sheela]

Yes, but that was partly because Field became *so* right wing even most of his former backers locally washed their hands of him. Before that was the case, there were two serious attempts to oust him in 1989 and 1991 - but both ultimately failed (and even though he needed national party intervention after the first instance, it was equally clear that Field had some strong local support)

Though it should also be remembered that back in 1979 he was if anything considered something of a left winger (even if a slightly heterodox one) due to his stint with the Child Poverty Action Group - and was quite possibly a bit of a reaction against his unabashedly right wing predecessor Dell (who duly decamped to the SDP a couple of years after standing down as an MP)

Though they quite plainly have large differences - I seriously doubt the average Corbynite would
seea meaningful distinction between Frank Field & Ali McGovern. Most people don’t pay anywhere near enough attention. Whitley = solid SCG type, McGovern = Progress/LFI. I can’t see many people who’d go to the trouble of dispatching Field and then be happy with McGovern coming in - unless Birkenhead is a hidden lair of remainers.

Field was hardly shy about his views, let alone his criticism of the party and the leadership as he was leaving. McGovern is certainly Progress, but for whatever reason she's never attracted that much attention compared to a lot of Progress MPs. It's unfortunate in a way as I think she's much more intellectually impressive than most people her faction has touted in the past, but it also meant she never really became a target for anyone. From the stories I heard, Corbynism on the Wirral was unusually nasty, focused on score-settling and careerism, but McGovern still sailed through her trigger ballot in 2019.

[Coldstream]

I try to have the rather reductive view that most CLP people have the same voting habits as people you meet on the doorstep e.g strange! I know someone who didn’t vote for YC because of what Ed did 100 years ago over Baby P and I know someone who was a Starmer/Burgon voter in 2020 because they thought Keir would win over the right wing press and Burgon was a ‘decent guy’.

By way of example, in the 2020 Labour deputy leadership election there were 3 candidates left when the 65000 votes from hard right Ian Murray were transferred. Despite the presence of 2 much more popular mainstream candidates, 4000 of them actively chose to preference hard left Richard Burgon. People are just weird, and it’s not just a rounding error share of them.

I mean that could just be people voting for the two male candidates. That’s not that shocking.

[Coldstream]

Yes, but that was partly because Field became *so* right wing even most of his former backers locally washed their hands of him. Before that was the case, there were two serious attempts to oust him in 1989 and 1991 - but both ultimately failed (and even though he needed national party intervention after the first instance, it was equally clear that Field had some strong local support)

Though it should also be remembered that back in 1979 he was if anything considered something of a left winger (even if a slightly heterodox one) due to his stint with the Child Poverty Action Group - and was quite possibly a bit of a reaction against his unabashedly right wing predecessor Dell (who duly decamped to the SDP a couple of years after standing down as an MP)

Though they quite plainly have large differences - I seriously doubt the average Corbynite would
seea meaningful distinction between Frank Field & Ali McGovern. Most people don’t pay anywhere near enough attention. Whitley = solid SCG type, McGovern = Progress/LFI. I can’t see many people who’d go to the trouble of dispatching Field and then be happy with McGovern coming in - unless Birkenhead is a hidden lair of remainers.

Field was hardly shy about his views, let alone his criticism of the party and the leadership as he was leaving. McGovern is certainly Progress, but for whatever reason she's never attracted that much attention compared to a lot of Progress MPs. It's unfortunate in a way as I think she's much more intellectually impressive than most people her faction has touted in the past, but it also meant she never really became a target for anyone. From the stories I heard, Corbynism on the Wirral was unusually nasty, focused on score-settling and careerism, but McGovern still sailed through her trigger ballot in 2019.

Apples and oranges:

McGovern as a random backbencher - gets no attention.

McGovern running for selection against an incumbent SCG MP - draws more.

[Leading Political Consultant Ma Anand Sheela]

Yes, but that was partly because Field became *so* right wing even most of his former backers locally washed their hands of him. Before that was the case, there were two serious attempts to oust him in 1989 and 1991 - but both ultimately failed (and even though he needed national party intervention after the first instance, it was equally clear that Field had some strong local support)

Though it should also be remembered that back in 1979 he was if anything considered something of a left winger (even if a slightly heterodox one) due to his stint with the Child Poverty Action Group - and was quite possibly a bit of a reaction against his unabashedly right wing predecessor Dell (who duly decamped to the SDP a couple of years after standing down as an MP)

Though they quite plainly have large differences - I seriously doubt the average Corbynite would
seea meaningful distinction between Frank Field & Ali McGovern. Most people don’t pay anywhere near enough attention. Whitley = solid SCG type, McGovern = Progress/LFI. I can’t see many people who’d go to the trouble of dispatching Field and then be happy with McGovern coming in - unless Birkenhead is a hidden lair of remainers.

Field was hardly shy about his views, let alone his criticism of the party and the leadership as he was leaving. McGovern is certainly Progress, but for whatever reason she's never attracted that much attention compared to a lot of Progress MPs. It's unfortunate in a way as I think she's much more intellectually impressive than most people her faction has touted in the past, but it also meant she never really became a target for anyone. From the stories I heard, Corbynism on the Wirral was unusually nasty, focused on score-settling and careerism, but McGovern still sailed through her trigger ballot in 2019.

Apples and oranges:

McGovern as a random backbencher - gets no attention.

McGovern running for selection against an incumbent SCG MP - draws more.

And she may well lose because of that, I don't know. I'm just pointing out why she may think she has a chance - and I haven't even touched on things like the possibility that the active membership of Birkenhead CLP isn't as Corbynite as it was in 2019.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Worth noting that the Greens have done very well in local elections in Birkenhead in the past couple of years. Presumably a proportion of their activist base there is ex-Labour, and presumably more of that from the pro- rather than anti-Corbyn side.

[CumbrianLefty]

Though they started their rise in Birkemhead ward itself during the Miliband years - first winning it in 2014 and in every election since 2018 (and by big margins these days)

[Coldstream]

If the membership in Merseyside is no longer reliably Bennite/Corbynite then the left is in more dire straits than even they realise. Birkenhead is the text of this, but I seriously doubt McGovern can pull it off unless there has been a sea change.

[CumbrianLefty]

If the membership in Merseyside is no longer reliably Bennite/Corbynite then the left is in more dire straits than even they realise. Birkenhead is the text of this, but I seriously doubt McGovern can pull it off unless there has been a sea change.

I mean, its not and never has been binary. Do you think the fight against Militant in the 1980s came from entirely outside Liverpool? The truth is anything but.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yeah, this is a case where stereotype occludes reality somewhat.

[Coldstream]

If the membership in Merseyside is no longer reliably Bennite/Corbynite then the left is in more dire straits than even they realise. Birkenhead is the text of this, but I seriously doubt McGovern can pull it off unless there has been a sea change.

I mean, its not and never has been binary. Do you think the fight against Militant in the 1980s came from entirely outside Liverpool? The truth is anything but.

And? This has literally nothing to do with what I said.

Do you think no one on the left opposed militant? Liverpools own Peter Kilfoyle beat Militant and was still a visceral opponent of New Labour. Plenty of people in Liverpool were against militant because they were gangsters & thugs, not because they themselves weren’t on the left. It’d be hardly surprising to find plenty of people who in the 80s were anti-militant and in 2015 voted Corbyn - least of all in Liverpool.

It’s also ancient history, plenty of places developed strong Corbynite groups 2015-19 that hadn’t had anything like that before - what happened in the 80s has little to no bearing on what happens in the 20s.

But for the sake of clarity, neither I, nor anyone, has ever claimed that every single Labour member in Liverpool is on the left of the party.

Yeah, this is a case where stereotype occludes reality somewhat.

I honestly don’t understand how you can dispute that Merseyside Labour was a stronghold of the left. Three of their MP’s quit the party in the last parliament because of it.