This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[JimJamUK]

After 44 years Neal Lawson has been expelled from the Labour Party because he tweeted that people should vote Green in some places back in 2021. Given it’s taken 2 years for him to be expelled, I’d like to think someone recently got tired of his endless repetition in the media of the 3 Ps (Progressive, Proportional and Pluralism), but knowing Labour it’s probably just reflects how long the bureaucracy takes to do anything.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

He specifically did so in the content of a ward where Labour were also running candidates, which is a very clear breach of the Rule Book. There's a fairly basic conflict between contemporary left-liberal radicalism with its emphasis on an almost consumerist sense of pluralistic politics and the reality of the Labour Party's socialist heritage, so this sort of incident will occur on occasion, but it's hilarious that it has happened to someone who was a Party member for so long. Did he not... notice?

[EastAnglianLefty]

It seems to specifically refer to a case in Oxford in 2021, where the Lib Dems stood down in favour of the Greens in a Labour-held ward. So it was an anti-Labour rather than anti-Tory pact.

[CumbrianLefty]

Yes, not just Labour candidates but actual Labour incumbents. OK one of them was L*k* A*e*u*s*, but even that might not be enough to save him.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I continue to be baffled by all the people who have made it perfectly clear just how much they despise the Labour Party and then act shocked and outraged at even the mildest form of hostility directed back at them.

I get that this entire phenomenon is necessarily exaggerated by those who are Very Online, but I also can’t help but suspect that some people are acting (however unconsciously) almost as if the UK has American-style primary elections, which can only lead to misunderstanding and disappointment. Admittedly, that might be a stretch on my part.

[Blair]

I was surprised he was still a member given that he’s had rather strong criticisms of the party for what a decade and Compass moved away from the party; I recall they might have been affiliated once?

But yes it’s the usual reminder that the labour rule book has a very sharp edge when thrown in a certain way; much like with the Labour right and it’s outriders outside of the party in 15-19 there is almost a sense of enjoyment when these things happen from some…

I do wonder why a written warning isn’t issued in some cases.

A highlight was seeing a PCC disagree with their relatively high profile father about this; only in TIhGMO are families split about these sort of things.

[Coldstream]

I remember Neal Lawson speaking at my university, where I made the gentle point to him that there were inconsistencies between him denouncing New Labour and encouraging votes for the post-coalition Lib Dem’s and he went to pieces very quickly. Fundamentally the guys a liberal, like a lot of the so called contemporary soft left, rather than of the Wilson/Kinnock tradition of the soft left. I will not mourn him and I doubt many outside of the Clive Lewis fan club will.

[CumbrianLefty]

Typical that he got his version of events widely circulated before anybody challenged it, though.

"He was expelled for advocating political pluralism" is now gospel for a certain online tendency.

[Estrella]

It's Guido Fawkes, but still. I'm glad Labour has such a principled stance on human rights.
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1669694015489318916

[CumbrianLefty]

A nothingburger, he was probably "advised" to do so by party HQ.

And there's really *no* excuse for citing P D Staines on anything.

[Lord Halifax]

How do you view the chances of Labour starting to run candidates in Northern Ireland? It's a bit odd that they're still allied with a nationalist party (SDLP) when Starmer has said he'll actively campaign for maintaining the union if there is a border poll.

There has also been a recent poll showing significant potential support for Labour in both communities if they decided to run.

[Coldstream]

How do you view the chances of Labour starting to run candidates in Northern Ireland? It's a bit odd that they're still allied with a nationalist party (SDLP) when Starmer has said he'll actively campaign for maintaining the union if there is a border poll.

There has also been a recent poll showing significant potential support for Labour in both communities if they decided to run.

I actually think it’s non-zero, the Labour Party in Northern Ireland has become increasingly active over the last few years, requesting they be allowed to stand etc. I don’t think there’s any reason to think we’d do any better than the NI Tories do, but I think the party is increasingly in a place that we’d do it.

[YL]

How do you view the chances of Labour starting to run candidates in Northern Ireland? It's a bit odd that they're still allied with a nationalist party (SDLP) when Starmer has said he'll actively campaign for maintaining the union if there is a border poll.

There has also been a recent poll showing significant potential support for Labour in both communities if they decided to run.

I tend to think that if the local members want to stand then they should be allowed to.  But I would be wary of that sort of poll of a hypothetical, and the NI Tories' performances aren't exactly a promising precedent.

[Lord Halifax]

How do you view the chances of Labour starting to run candidates in Northern Ireland? It's a bit odd that they're still allied with a nationalist party (SDLP) when Starmer has said he'll actively campaign for maintaining the union if there is a border poll.

There has also been a recent poll showing significant potential support for Labour in both communities if they decided to run.

I actually think it’s non-zero, the Labour Party in Northern Ireland has become increasingly active over the last few years, requesting they be allowed to stand etc. I don’t think there’s any reason to think we’d do any better than the NI Tories do, but I think the party is increasingly in a place that we’d do it.

UUP seems like a perfect match for people who'd be Tories on the mainland, but there is no unionist centre-left party apart from a few micro parties with paramilitary ties (PUP and another one I can't remember).  

There must be some unionist voters who are centre-left on economics and a lot that are dissatisfied with public services (the dismal state of the local NHS etc.), and there's a growing middle ground of people from a mixed background, ethnic minorities, blow-ins from the rest of the UK and people from the two "tribes" who for whatever reason are agnostic about the constitutional status. Alliance is an economically liberal party, some of their voters must be to the left of the party.

The poll is older than I remembered, from last summer: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/poll-reveals-a-growing-appetite-for-labour-to-contest-elections-in-northern-ireland/41849645.html

[Coldstream]

Personally I’m in favour of letting the local members do it, and see what happens. I doubt we’d get anywhere but they should have the right to do so. I voted for the NI Labour guy for the NEC purely on that basis.

[EastAnglianLefty]

I'm a Labour member living in NI. I would like us to stand, but I don't think it's a change that is likely to happen soon - aside from the various institutional obstacles (which are not inconsiderable), if we stood right now we'd be lucky to elect a councillor anywhere, because it takes time to build up an electoral base and a lot of the "natural" base votes for other parties and is relatively content to do so.

If the purpose of standing is primarily testimonial, then it's much harder to sell it as a proposition to people who are worried about pissing off the SDLP, the Irish government, Labour members in Britain who take a soft-nationalist stance or any of the other groups who don't want us to stand candidates.

[afleitch]

I'm recent weeks, and this morning, Labour are really trying to reinforce the 'when elected we won't change a thing' narrative.

I'm genuinely wondering why. Is it internal polling?

[JimJamUK]

I'm recent weeks, and this morning, Labour are really trying to reinforce the 'when elected we won't change a thing' narrative.

I'm genuinely wondering why. Is it internal polling?

Part of it is the long-standing fear that Labour will mess up the public finances/economy, part of it is preparing the public for how awful things are (and therefore there’s little room for manoeuvre), and part of it I just don’t know. You can achieve the first 2 while still making it clear that you have a few headline spending commitments that you prioritise because they are so important and will make a difference eg; the NHS.

[Coldstream]

I think part of it is expectations management, since we’re now likely to win we don’t want to be seen promising to fix it overnight when the Tories have trashed the country to such a degree as to make that difficult. But it’s hard to feign enthusiasm for such an offer.

[afleitch]

I think part of it is expectations management, since we’re now likely to win we don’t want to be seen promising to fix it overnight when the Tories have trashed the country to such a degree as to make that difficult. But it’s hard to feign enthusiasm for such an offer.

Come campaign time that might be brutal.

[CumbrianLefty]

Well, that's why many are still hoping there will be a few headline "offers" come election time - indeed we might get some hints there come party conference season?

It does appear that the statement on the two parent benefit cap has displeased more than just the usual suspects, though - especially since Starmer could just have stuck to the usual "we can't commit ourselves at this stage/don't do hypotheticals" waffle that Reeves has now become quite skilled at.

And another thing - Laura K still can't hide her obvious biases can she? Her default hostility towards SKS compared to chumminess with Tories *on the same programme* was obvious from space.

One change we *may* get soon after a Labour government is elected - especially since it won't cost any money! - is a rapid turnover of BBC staff and management at the top level.

[afleitch]

Blair was able to promise (and generally deliver) widescale social and institutional change without spending a penny and making a commitment to continuing Tory spending plans for two years.

Starmer has offered little about what sort of society he wants. He's capitulated to the 'culture wars' even though Labour will win off the backs of the young and working age voters who generally reject that bs.

I think it's more likely to hurt re-election rather than 2024/25.

[CumbrianLefty]

Blair was able to promise (and generally deliver) widescale social and institutional change without spending a penny and making a commitment to continuing Tory spending plans for two years.

Starmer has offered little about what sort of society he wants. He's capitulated to the 'culture wars' even though Labour will win off the backs of the young and working age voters who generally reject that bs.

I think it's more likely to hurt re-election rather than 2024/25.

Tbf this at least is a bit of an exaggeration, its almost all vibes and maybe the only substantive thing is that Labour has edged away from "ultra" positions on trans rights - something that will in reality not move many votes (by the same token, the hopes of some Tories that it can be an election winner are almost hilariously wrong) In practice even there, a Starmer government would be rather less hostile to trans people than Tories have now become, and would dial down the "culture wars" more generally - which will of course become easier if they actually have important projects to get on with instead.

[JimJamUK]

Blair was able to promise (and generally deliver) widescale social and institutional change without spending a penny and making a commitment to continuing Tory spending plans for two years.

Labour has in theory committed to or at least heavily briefed a very radical constitutional and democratic programme on things like devolution, the HoL and expanding the electoral franchise. My worry is that they focus on pushing through these trendy progressive ‘reforms’ (most but not all of which are poorly thought through) instead of tackling things that actually matter in ordinary peoples day-to-day lives.

[Cassius]

The ‘constitutional reforms’ are the ultimate example of a solution desperately sniffing around for a problem.