This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[Coldstream]

Dude you didn’t know I existed til yesterday 😂 I wrote my dissertation on class and talk about it a lot. I seriously doubt Akehurst said what you’re claiming he did, but if he did that’s just another example of how common the view that OJ isn’t a stupid guy is.

No you don't. If you're going to lie at least make it convincing. 2,000 posts and you never talk about it. And on the occasions you do, it's "everyone who goes to a private school is upper-class" and "the reactionary working class used to vote and join Labour". By your own admission the only reason you don't think the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington vote Labour (as you expected them to) is because you've actually canvassed there.

And 'dude' I have known you existed for two years now. Again this has nothing to do with opinion of Owen Jones; it is about the fact it is patently obvious where and from who you borrowed your words from.

This may shock you, but I’ve on occasion spoken to people outside of this forum. My comments on this forum do not consist of an exhaustive list of my correspondence or indeed views.

Nice to know I’m impactful enough for you to have thought about me for two years though, if I ever need a biographer I’ll know who to call!

Known about you for two years, thought about you for two years—still doing that 'stuff which isn't there' thing huh.

Of course I talk about the forum: where else? From your (lack of) statements about class on the forum it is easily observed that you have as little interest in 'class' as understanding of it. I have no idea how someone who wrote a dissertation on class can display such a total lack of interest in it, let alone an understanding of it that, again, leads to you expecting the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington to vote Labour.

And, you know, given how narrow the results were... did you, then, expect the north of the constituency to vote Conservative? I could maybe understand you expecting them to vote Labour were Kensington an overwhelmingly Labour constituency, but no the Conservatives have polled between 38% and 52% there over the past fifteen years.

Dude you remember a comment I made about something as irrelevant as Kensington I have no recollection of, you cannot be trying to pretend I’m not living rent free.

Again, I’ve no clue what you’re talking about (or why you care) - but I imagine I was referring to when I canvassed there when it had a Labour MP (2018 council elections iirc) and I’d expected it to be similar to Bristol west - where I’d attended university - only to find that it wasn’t. I seriously doubt I was making a thorough or nuanced argument at the time.

[Wiswylfen]

Dude you didn’t know I existed til yesterday 😂 I wrote my dissertation on class and talk about it a lot. I seriously doubt Akehurst said what you’re claiming he did, but if he did that’s just another example of how common the view that OJ isn’t a stupid guy is.

No you don't. If you're going to lie at least make it convincing. 2,000 posts and you never talk about it. And on the occasions you do, it's "everyone who goes to a private school is upper-class" and "the reactionary working class used to vote and join Labour". By your own admission the only reason you don't think the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington vote Labour (as you expected them to) is because you've actually canvassed there.

And 'dude' I have known you existed for two years now. Again this has nothing to do with opinion of Owen Jones; it is about the fact it is patently obvious where and from who you borrowed your words from.

This may shock you, but I’ve on occasion spoken to people outside of this forum. My comments on this forum do not consist of an exhaustive list of my correspondence or indeed views.

Nice to know I’m impactful enough for you to have thought about me for two years though, if I ever need a biographer I’ll know who to call!

Known about you for two years, thought about you for two years—still doing that 'stuff which isn't there' thing huh.

Of course I talk about the forum: where else? From your (lack of) statements about class on the forum it is easily observed that you have as little interest in 'class' as understanding of it. I have no idea how someone who wrote a dissertation on class can display such a total lack of interest in it, let alone an understanding of it that, again, leads to you expecting the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington to vote Labour.

And, you know, given how narrow the results were... did you, then, expect the north of the constituency to vote Conservative? I could maybe understand you expecting them to vote Labour were Kensington an overwhelmingly Labour constituency, but no the Conservatives have polled between 38% and 52% there over the past fifteen years.

Dude you remember a comment I made about something as irrelevant as Kensington I have no recollection of, you cannot be trying to pretend I’m not living rent free.

Again, I’ve no clue what you’re talking about (or why you care) - but I imagine I was referring to when I canvassed there when it had a Labour MP (2018 council elections iirc) and I’d expected it to be similar to Bristol west - where I’d attended university - only to find that it wasn’t. I seriously doubt I was making a thorough or nuanced argument at the time.

Actually I just searched your posts for 'class'.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I think I finished reading the above exchange knowing less about Owen Jones than I did at the beginning.

Well, he’s definitely not Owen Smith. I still know that!

[CumbrianLefty]

Would love to know what “briefcase vibes” means in English too fwiw. But I’m sure that everyone else is as tired as I am of this ah, debate. Perhaps you can DM it to me.

Well this I know at least, it is a play on the phrase "Briefcase Labour" - a derisive term for a certain type of careerist who has literally done nothing but politics in general, and plotting in particular.

[Blair]

Former star columnist leaves political party; attempts to gain attention for doing so. Film at eleven.

He's an interesting case study in how easily a career in that field can go sideways rather quickly: he had a very comfortable niche lined up as a critical friend of the Labour Party positioned slightly to the left of the leadership - and quite a lot more 'liberal' - and that's a good spot for 'influence' and high billings in certain parts of the media. Potentially makes you a useful vector for gossip and leaks as well, and that's always good news in career terms. Then along came the Corbyn leadership which undermined that model and forced choices of one sort or another on everyone. He mostly made poor choices. Now he's essentially a parody of himself, especially as no one would read him for his analytical skills (which are abysmal) or his prose (which is cacophonous). He still has that Gruaniad column, but it's no longer a column that matters in any sense and he no longer has access. I presume that he can get Sharon Graham to talk to him, but otherwise it's just a list of people slowly heading towards the scrapheap themselves. None of this really matters, but on a human level it's a little grim.

I wonder how his career would have gone if, as rumoured, he had stood in either 2015, or 2017 to be an MP. Easy to see how it ended in tears but equally…

[CumbrianLefty]

It would have been either the making or breaking of him.

(and as you say, could have gone either way)

And re afleitch's comment above - OJ *does* look almost implausibly young, there is no getting round that - and it can be both a help and a hindrance in public life.

[Coldstream]

Would love to know what “briefcase vibes” means in English too fwiw. But I’m sure that everyone else is as tired as I am of this ah, debate. Perhaps you can DM it to me.

Well this I know at least, it is a play on the phrase "Briefcase Labour" - a derisive term for a certain type of careerist who has literally done nothing but politics in general, and plotting in particular.

Fascinating. I’ll have to see if Luke Akehurst tweets about it so I know how to use it in a sentence.

[Wiswylfen]

Also I'm not quite sure what defence "actually I thought the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington would vote Labour" is supposed to be against "you thought the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington would vote Labour". The reason 'why I care' is because it is an exceptionally good example of you completely failing to understand class, what it is, what it means, and how it works, despite writing a dissertation on it and claiming to actually be very interested in it.

I also question why you're going on about how wow two people think Owen Jones isn't stupid. I'm not talking about you having the same opinion as someone else, I'm talking about you blatantly copying from Luke Akehurst's tweets—and politely requesting that you refrain from doing so as obviously in the future because that I get him on my timeline is bad (and reason to quit Twitter) enough.

Let's go back, check your posts, and reiterate some things.

I do pity him, he’s not a stupid man or a bigot but he’s thrown away any relevance or influence he could have had because of his obsession with Starmer - which is not based in reality. Which is not good for the Labour Party, because he’s someone who actually understood class-based politics.

I’ve also next to no clue who the other people you’re talking about are, and I doubt it has much to do with Owen Jones from what I can glean.

You do not 'pity him'. You are doing an deeply unpleasant act of affected sympathy because, supposedly, he is 'Not All There' and 'Going Through' 'whatever'. Unsurprisingly, I have a strong dislike for (a) insinuating a man is mentally ill because (for reasons understandable to me despite my disagreements with that man) he does not support Keir Starmer and (b) doing a faux sympathy act over it.

Also all the things I mentioned were directly to do with Owen Jones (as I explained to you—though for some reason you decided, with nothing at all to it, that I was actually saying that I think you're an 'associate' of Hadley Freeman and completely ignoring the explanation provided).

Interestingly, I don’t follow Luke Akehurst (really isn’t the fact I vote in the NEC elections bad enough?) but I actually do follow Owen Jones on twitter.

Perhaps I ought to though, if as you seem to believe he’s the only person besides me who’s ever thought there was something strange about OJ’s fixation on Starmer. It has been so lonely with such a unique view.

Would love to know what “briefcase vibes” means in English too fwiw. But I’m sure that everyone else is as tired as I am of this ah, debate. Perhaps you can DM it to me.

It is obvious that you saw and were 'inspired by' his tweet, though for some reason you've chosen this as the hill to make your defence and distract from the fact that this originated with you making unpleasant insinuations about a man's state of mind because he thinks Keith man bad or whatever.

So at this point I don't know if you're failing to read my posts correctly or just lying about what I've said. "if as you seem to believe he’s the only person besides me who’s ever thought there was something strange about OJ’s fixation on Starmer"—where is this from? Again, as I said, I'm not talking about you having the same opinion as someone else.

[Wiswylfen]

Would love to know what “briefcase vibes” means in English too fwiw. But I’m sure that everyone else is as tired as I am of this ah, debate. Perhaps you can DM it to me.

Well this I know at least, it is a play on the phrase "Briefcase Labour" - a derisive term for a certain type of careerist who has literally done nothing but politics in general, and plotting in particular.

It's more than that—young, faux-professional to an absurd extent, thinks they're in of it the thick, complains about 'the left' caring about/'fixating on' Palestine while constantly defending Israel, understands politics mainly by reference to mythologised past events (or the chicken suit thing), reads political biographies, etc.

Since I just know I'll get "well actually I haven't..." there is a reason I said 'Briefcase vibes'. You don't have to have done all these things, let alone on this forum, to give me Briefcase vibes.

Fascinating. I’ll have to see if Luke Akehurst tweets about it so I know how to use it in a sentence.

I don't think it's at all 'conspiratorial' to suggest that perhaps a self-admittedly 'too online' Labour member who is obviously from that section of the party which accuses 'the left' of fixating on Palestine while Standing With Israel 24/7 saw a convenient supposed point 'for'/against Owen Jones involving his "class-based analysis of society" coming from someone also of that section and—not actually having one themselves, because again 'from the start it's just been unpleasant insinuations about a man's state of mind because he thinks Keith man bad'—changed it up a bit.

[TheTide]

I do however think that the continued infantilisation of him; how he looks, how young he looks is incredibly crass and characteristic of broader issues with anyone under the age of 40 (just...in his case) holding any position in the public arena. Particularly when it comes from the same politicians and media that regularly fête a rotation of young, suited adenoidal Tories.

Well, is this going to cease to be the case in August (when he turns 40)? I think not.

[Coldstream]

Also I'm not quite sure what defence "actually I thought the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington would vote Labour" is supposed to be against "you thought the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington would vote Labour". The reason 'why I care' is because it is an exceptionally good example of you completely failing to understand class, what it is, what it means, and how it works, despite writing a dissertation on it and claiming to actually be very interested in it.

I also question why you're going on about how wow two people think Owen Jones isn't stupid. I'm not talking about you having the same opinion as someone else, I'm talking about you blatantly copying from Luke Akehurst's tweets—and politely requesting that you refrain from doing so as obviously in the future because that I get him on my timeline is bad (and reason to quit Twitter) enough.

Let's go back, check your posts, and reiterate some things.

I do pity him, he’s not a stupid man or a bigot but he’s thrown away any relevance or influence he could have had because of his obsession with Starmer - which is not based in reality. Which is not good for the Labour Party, because he’s someone who actually understood class-based politics.

I’ve also next to no clue who the other people you’re talking about are, and I doubt it has much to do with Owen Jones from what I can glean.

You do not 'pity him'. You are doing an deeply unpleasant act of affected sympathy because, supposedly, he is 'Not All There' and 'Going Through' 'whatever'. Unsurprisingly, I have a strong dislike for (a) insinuating a man is mentally ill because (for reasons understandable to me despite my disagreements with that man) he does not support Keir Starmer and (b) doing a faux sympathy act over it.

Also all the things I mentioned were directly to do with Owen Jones (as I explained to you—though for some reason you decided, with nothing at all to it, that I was actually saying that I think you're an 'associate' of Hadley Freeman and completely ignoring the explanation provided).

Interestingly, I don’t follow Luke Akehurst (really isn’t the fact I vote in the NEC elections bad enough?) but I actually do follow Owen Jones on twitter.

Perhaps I ought to though, if as you seem to believe he’s the only person besides me who’s ever thought there was something strange about OJ’s fixation on Starmer. It has been so lonely with such a unique view.

Would love to know what “briefcase vibes” means in English too fwiw. But I’m sure that everyone else is as tired as I am of this ah, debate. Perhaps you can DM it to me.

It is obvious that you saw and were 'inspired by' his tweet, though for some reason you've chosen this as the hill to make your defence and distract from the fact that this originated with you making unpleasant insinuations about a man's state of mind because he thinks Keith man bad or whatever.

So at this point I don't know if you're failing to read my posts correctly or just lying about what I've said. "if as you seem to believe he’s the only person besides me who’s ever thought there was something strange about OJ’s fixation on Starmer"—where is this from? Again, as I said, I'm not talking about you having the same opinion as someone else.

As I recall I said/thought something like rich white people in Bristol West vote Labour, given that we won Kensington in 2017 before I went there (knowing next to nothing about it as a 19 year old undergrad) I assumed it would be the same demographic-  and I then I went there and realised I was wrong - it’s really not that deep.

You do a lot of things buddy; “politely request” is not one of them.

I don’t think he’s mentally ill because he doesn’t like Keir Starmer, I think he hyper-fixates on random issues to his detriment - in a way that he didn’t do prior to 2020. Which to me suggests something has gone wrong in his thinking. I used to quite like him, and think it’s sad that we don’t have his input anymore. I’m genuinely sorry that you live in a world where you can’t believe it’s possible for me to disagree with him and pity him - but there’s not really anything I could do to convince you if I cared enough to. Which I don’t.

Again, I didn’t read whatever this tweet you’re talking about is, I really don’t think it’s a surprise that he and I may have expressed broadly similar sentiments about an issue - obviously you’re fixated on the idea I have read this tweet, and again, there’s nothing I could do to convince you otherwise.

As to not reading your posts, I mean…mate I try, but you write a lot and not a lot of it makes much sense. And what does comes off as conspiratorial ramblings/accusations to me. I’ll also be generous and say you’ve misunderstood my motives/intentions rather than assuming you’re continually/deliberately misrepresenting what I’m doing, but there’s a limit to how much I or anyone can engage with you when you’re this aggressive. If I’ve got you wrong then I’m sorry about that, but you’ve definitely got me wrong so there’s not really any point continuing.

[Conservatopia]

Guys I know internecine fighting is a Labour rite of passage but this has to stop.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Anyway, Sam Tarry is threatening the party with legal action.

[Zinneke]

Guys I know internecine fighting is a Labour rite of passage but this has to stop.

[Coldstream]

Guys I know internecine fighting is a Labour rite of passage but this has to stop.

I am trying to draw the fire in to my inbox to spare everyone else.

[Zinneke]

You're both winners in my book. I'm still not sure what you are arguing about though.

[Wiswylfen]

You're both winners in my book. I'm still not sure what you are arguing about though.

The sincerity of his attacks on Owen Jones. His arguments being copied from Luke Akehurst's Twitter timeline serves as detail to that: he lacked an opinion of his own, beyond disliking Owen Jones over him having left the Labour Party, so had to find one from elsewhere. When that fell apart he resorted to nonsensical talk of 'fixations' on either Keir Starmer or 'random things', depending on the post. Like, it's politics; of course Jones is going to talk about Keir Starmer. He's the leader of the Labour Party and about to be prime minister.

The following section of the post does not concern Coldstream, just to be absolutely clear, because although I don't see how it could be read as such I am sure someone else would. I don't particularly like Owen Jones. That I'm on the right of the party—though in a different way to the likes of Luke Akehurst—is fairly obvious. But one thing I really don't like is being lied to, and lies are what the constant attacks on him for all quarters depend on.

The man unnecessarily apologises for commenting on the Kate Middleton photoshop: GB News calls him 'cruel' in an article written by a woman who herself responded to it by asking people if it meant they didn't like her anymore; the Daily Mail puts him front-and-centre in an article written by one of the many creatures who helped kill local news; 'showbiz reporters' at The Sun accuse him of "peddling 'ghastly' Princess Kate conspiracy theories"; and the Express calls him a 'whinging leftie' who "engaged with wild conspiracy theories" to the delight of their readers. Of course none of the stupid hacks actually believe it themselves. They're just feeding the pigs their slop.

For some reason Owen Jones really aggravates people—not so much by his actions as by his existence. Dog pfp boomers froth at him. Politicians scream about the evils he's done, though are careful to omit any reference to what, exactly, those evils are. Men like Alex Hearn screech that he's "accusing a Jew of lying about antisemitism" for suggesting that, perhaps, Gary Lineker does not in fact hate Jews.

Personally I find it ridiculous. But hey-ho we live in a world where Owen Jones is accused of "swimming in a neo-Nazi swamp" because he screenshotted a post from a news account that turns out to have been run by a racist (as though it's reasonable Owen Jones should have known about that account's replies to another from last year), while the man making the accusation (Alex Hearn, Labour Against Antisemitism director*) can go after elderly Jewish women on Twitter for not being religious enough all he wants, to the applause of a Twitter account named after a fictional paedophile that sitting Labour MPs follow for some reason, so who cares really.

[Coldstream]

If what you’re sayings true, there’s a real English irony to the fact that I probably like Owen Jones more than you do.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Anyway, Tommy McAvoy (Lord McAvoy from 2010) died earlier this month. MP for Glasgow Rutherglen 1987-2005 and Rutherglen & Hamilton West 2005-10, he was a classic Labour Party career whip and spent all but five of his twenty three years as an MP in the whip's office, including for the entire duration of the Blair-Brown government. He then continued to work as a Labour whip in the Lords, only retiring in 2021. There are different approaches to whipping, and McAvoy's seems to have been similar to that of Bob Mellish: he was well-liked by most MPs and could even be supportive and helpful, but he was also feared and it was well understood that one did not wish to get into his bad books. He was also noted for his extreme local particularism and lobbied (successfully) to have Rutherglen detached from Glasgow when the present Scottish local government system was created in the 1990s. He once responded to a complaint from an errant backbencher that he was 'just a Glasgow thug' by objecting as he was actually from Rutherglen.

[CumbrianLefty]

Anyway, Sam Tarry is threatening the party with legal action.

On rather flimsy evidence, it seems to most reasonably objective observers.

[Blair]

Anyway, Tommy McAvoy (Lord McAvoy from 2010) died earlier this month. MP for Glasgow Rutherglen 1987-2005 and Rutherglen & Hamilton West 2005-10, he was a classic Labour Party career whip and spent all but five of his twenty three years as an MP in the whip's office, including for the entire duration of the Blair-Brown government. He then continued to work as a Labour whip in the Lords, only retiring in 2021. There are different approaches to whipping, and McAvoy's seems to have been similar to that of Bob Mellish: he was well-liked by most MPs and could even be supportive and helpful, but he was also feared and it was well understood that one did not wish to get into his bad books. He was also noted for his extreme local particularism and lobbied (successfully) to have Rutherglen detached from Glasgow when the present Scottish local government system was created in the 1990s. He once responded to a complaint from an errant backbencher that he was 'just a Glasgow thug' by objecting as he was actually from Rutherglen.

One of those figures who played a very important but quiet role in ensuring that 97-2010 could happen; at risk of sounding like a Colonel Blimp you wonder who will fulfil these roles in the whips office when the flock panics in the next Parliament!

Labour whips lore is legendary; the current chief of course served as deputy in the Blair/brown era and was recommended by Nick Brown when he departed- another fun fact is it was rumoured JC wanted to remove Campbell but was told by NB that he would quit.

A fact I always tell people is that Bridget Phillipson spent a lot of her early time in the whips office and it shows.

[Cassius]

One (among many) issues for the whips these days is that many of the old school (and effective) methods of whipping would now be classed as workplace misconduct.

[TheTide]

One (among many) issues for the whips these days is that many of the old school (and effective) methods of whipping would now be classed as workplace misconduct.

The implementation of legislation on matters regarding workplace misconduct was no doubt assisted by such methods.

Some of the Tory choices for the position of Chief Whip have been quite ridiculous in recent times. Can anyone imagine Chris Heaton-Harris and Wendy Morton being able to herd actual sheep? Labour has tended to stick with nasty pieces of work from the North East, which is less ridiculous.

[Wiswylfen]

Anyway, Tommy McAvoy (Lord McAvoy from 2010) died earlier this month. MP for Glasgow Rutherglen 1987-2005 and Rutherglen & Hamilton West 2005-10, he was a classic Labour Party career whip and spent all but five of his twenty three years as an MP in the whip's office, including for the entire duration of the Blair-Brown government. He then continued to work as a Labour whip in the Lords, only retiring in 2021. There are different approaches to whipping, and McAvoy's seems to have been similar to that of Bob Mellish: he was well-liked by most MPs and could even be supportive and helpful, but he was also feared and it was well understood that one did not wish to get into his bad books. He was also noted for his extreme local particularism and lobbied (successfully) to have Rutherglen detached from Glasgow when the present Scottish local government system was created in the 1990s. He once responded to a complaint from an errant backbencher that he was 'just a Glasgow thug' by objecting as he was actually from Rutherglen.

One of those figures who played a very important but quiet role in ensuring that 97-2010 could happen; at risk of sounding like a Colonel Blimp you wonder who will fulfil these roles in the whips office when the flock panics in the next Parliament!

Labour whips lore is legendary; the current chief of course served as deputy in the Blair/brown era and was recommended by Nick Brown when he departed- another fun fact is it was rumoured JC wanted to remove Campbell but was told by NB that he would quit.

A fact I always tell people is that Bridget Phillipson spent a lot of her early time in the whips office and it shows.

And with such equal loyalty Nick Brown was repaid!

[CumbrianLefty]

Isn't that very much a "local politics" thing?