Yes or No. Is the universe 12,000 years old? Dont hide behind your bible. No but

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

When did I ever say that I have kept myself free from lying throughout my life?  I'm simply saying that you have not seen me lie on this forum, for political or any other reason.  And I will not lie for George Bush, rather I have been very critical of him on this forum and have called him incompetent many times.

And if the worst example of my behavior that you can point to is me making sport of my political opponents' losses, then I have done a pretty decent job. 

Would I have trashed talked if I were a pol on TV?  Obviously not, for that is not how to win over people to your side of the argument.  But if I were on TV, my audience would be different.  As it is, I am on a political internet forum where the "audience" can not be persuaded.

I believe someone can be a good Christian and talk trash during a sporting event, as long as their trash talking is kept clean.  And I actually teach my kids to be able to tolerate trash talking from the opposing side when they're playing in their sport leagues. 

Psychological distraction (trash talking) is a part of sports.  It is a part of politics (e.g. Reagan’s “There you go again…”).  And it is a part of war.

If you can’t handle trash talking, which is a part of life, then you are too uptight and rigid, and you will be defeated at every turn.

[nlm]

I'm not coming out against trash talking (I was a huge trash talker back when I played ball - for both the reason you note and to get an edge in the aggression department).

Like I said, I was simply amused by your earlier statements and wanted to see if they could be duplicated - I have no pretense that I know squat about who you are beyond some of your ramblings and self justifications and absolutisms posted on this board. Really, you could say I was just doing a little trash talking with you - hehehehehe - to watch a self justifying machine at work. Aces.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I'm not coming out against trash talking (I was a huge trash talker back when I played play - for both the reason you note and to get an edge in the aggression department).

Like I said, I was simply amused by your earlier statements and wanted to see if they could be duplicated - I have no pretense that I know squat about who you are beyond some of your ramblings and self justifications and absolutisms posted on this board. Really, you could say I was just doing a little trash talking with you - hehehehehe - to watch a self justifying machine at work. Aces.

If you believe I am self-justifying, then cite an example?

If you are going to use my trash-talking as an example of me by self-justifying, then that must mean that you believe my religion forbids trash talking.  For if you did believe that trash talking was allowed in the bible, you wouldn't cite my trash talking as an example of me justifying myself.

So which is it?  Do you believe the bible forbids trash talking or not?  If not, then why bring it up to me in the context of accusing me of trash talking?

[nlm]

I don't know squat about your religion, other than it is used to justify what ever is being done at the moment and that many seem to disagree about the justifications being used. I don't want to know squat about a religion that has been used as excuse through out history for harming other people and is still being used that way today.

I honestly could care less if YOUR idea of YOUR religion incorporates the idea of trash talking. It's like asking what the code of conduct is for Santa's elves. Who cares (other than the elves that is).

While as amusing as it would be to watch you justify your self justifying (I'm assuming it would be more amussing than watching you pretend not to be a self justifying machine), I'll make a deal with you - if I note you doing it in the future, I'll be sure to point it out - as looking through your old posts sounds more like torture than fun, and that isn't why I come here.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I don't know squat about your religion, other than it is used to justify what ever is being done at the moment and that many seem to disagree about the justifications being used.

Actually nlm, you were the only one that connected religion with my trash talking:

I wonder what your lord and savior would say about that jmfcst?

So, now you want to talk about Jesus?

No - and it's watching self proclaimed devout believers behave so poorly that causes that.

---

And even though you label my trash talking as “behaving poorly”, you claim to have no problem engaging in it yourself:

I'm not coming out against trash talking (I was a huge trash talker back when I played play - for both the reason you note and to get an edge in the aggression department).

Basically, you’re the only one hypocritical enough on this forum to attempt to claim my trash talking is sinful.

[nlm]

I don't claim anything is sinful, the whole idea of religous sin is silly.

As far as trash talking goes - I don't go around with a holy than thou attitude either. It gives me some wiggle room you don't afford yourself.

When people connect just about everything to religion, as you seem to do, it wasn't hard to connect your religion to your trash talking. I mean is there something in your life not connected to your religion?

Like I said, just having a little fun with you. I find the true believers to be an "interesting" sub set of humanity. Shaking some chains, and seeing if I can gain some insights into the oddities of the thought process.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I don't claim anything is sinful, the whole idea of religous sin is silly.

As far as trash talking goes - I don't go around with a holy than thou attitude either. It gives me some wiggle room you don't afford yourself.

I have never claimed that Christians couldn't trash talk their opponents.

---

When people connect just about everything to religion, as you seem to do, it wasn't hard to connect your religion to your trash talking. I mean is there something in your life not connected to your religion?

99% of the activities of my life don't have anything to do with my religion.

I can eat hotdogs with mustard or ketchup....God doesn't care.
I can wear Nike or Converse...God doesn't care.
I can part my hair on the right, or the left....God doesn't care.
I can use Ivory soap or Zest…God doesn’t care.
I can drive a Corolla or Excursion…God doesn’t care.
I can wear a blue shirt or a gray shirt…God doesn’t care.
I can build my house out of brick or wood…God doesn’t care.
I can….etc, etc, etc, etc, etc….

I am only told not to be like the following: the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

[afleitch]

I am only told not to be like the following: the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

'And i'll get your little dog too!'

[nlm]

I am only told not to be like the following: the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

But I thought if you put your faith in Jesus all sin was forgiven? Is that not the case anymore?

[KEmperor]

I am only told not to be like the following: the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

'And i'll get your little dog too!'

LOL

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I am only told not to be like the following: the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

But I thought if you put your faith in Jesus all sin was forgiven? Is that not the case anymore?

In case you've been in a closet all you life....Sins are forgiven for those who accept Jesus and repent:

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

[nlm]

This is fun, but it's really not that fair to you. I'm talking about something that is comical and absurd and you're talking about the same thing, accept it's the center of your life. I don't think I can keep it up with out crossing some lines, in terms of mean spiritedness, I'd really rather not cross. You seem like an amicable enough nutter to me - so no need to be cross with you.

"bumbles bounce"

How foolish of you to mock the words of Yukon Cornelius!

I'm quoting verbatim from "rudolph the red nosed reign deer".

Silly mortal! Have you been in a closet all your life, or just wrapped up in fiction? hehehehehehe

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Silly mortal! Have you been in a closet all your life, or just wrapped up in fiction? hehehehehehe

Which part of the bible do you consider fiction?

[nlm]

The parts not supported by empirical evidence. Just because somebody wrote something down on a piece of paper (or carved it in a stone tablet) doesn't make it so.

Let me test that.

"I'm an invisible, ethereal, omnipotent being!"

Damn, I was right.

I look at the bible the same way I look at the Koran, or the Bhagavad Gita , or The Egyptian Book of the Dead, or Tao Te Ching, or the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Kells, or the Poetic Edda for that matter. There is really no logical reason not to.

I get it jmfsct, some folks were raised on the bible and need that mystical belief in something better than this life to keep going. It gives a person a feeling of accomplishment and superiority and more with no real effort, people would pay money for that - and they do. There are a lot of folks out their just like that, in fact, the world over it seems to be more common than not. It could be called the typical human condition. It serves a purpose and it has a wide market. So of course folks will sell it and buy it and be used by it and use it. That's life. I really don't begrudge you your flight of fancy. I really do understand that some folks actually couldn't continue in their lives with out their mystical beliefs in something better than the here and now. I feel for those folks. Now the ones that just follow along never asking a pertinet question about the flight of fancy their parents (or some other person) directed them to, I don't feel them. They are simply a waste of brain matter (if you ask me).

Like I said this is comical and absurd to me, and the root of your existance. I'll keep talking to you on this topic if you want, but I don't know why you would want that.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The parts not supported by empirical evidence.

Does that mean you accept the parts of the bible that can be supported by historical evidence?

[nlm]

Empirical evidence. I need empirical evidence for zinggy stuff, not words on a page.

I have a feeling I would find your definition of "historical evidence" to be some what lacking. Though you may define your use of the term for me if you so wish.

"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."  - Napoleon.

He, of course, is correct.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Empirical evidence. I need empirical evidence for zinggy stuff, not words on a page.

Well, since Christianity exists today, when and where does your empirical evidence suggest it started?

[John Dibble]

Empirical evidence. I need empirical evidence for zinggy stuff, not words on a page.

Well, since Christianity exists today, when and where does your empirical evidence suggest it started?

I think he's talking about empirical evidence of things like the great flood, the 7 plagues of Egypt, a guy having a burning bush talk to him - that kind of thing.

[J. J.]

Therefore, it is because of your own desires that you refuse to conform yourself to the word of God.  You refuse to repent because you rather serve your flesh than serve God.

How dare you.

Do you not understand the concept of love? Do you not understand that I can love, emotionally love and physically love another man?

1John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands.


Who do you love more, your homosexual lover or God?

It is a great call for Christian celibacy, but nothing more.

I could ask a the monogamist man or woman, that is been in in a heterosexual marriage for the last 50 years and have limited their sexual activity to that spouse, "Who do love more, your spouse or God?"

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

1John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands.


Who do you love more, your homosexual lover or God?

It is a great call for Christian celibacy, but nothing more.

I could ask a the monogamist man or woman, that is been in in a heterosexual marriage for the last 50 years and have limited their sexual activity to that spouse, "Who do love more, your spouse or God?"

Yet hetrosexual marriage is not contrary to the word of God.  So, I can be married and still meet God's measurement of my love for Him:  obedience to his word.  And I can be married and love my wife, yet still love God more.

But one can NOT live in disobedience to God and claim to love God.  God has already discredited that argument:

1John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands.

[nlm]

Empirical evidence. I need empirical evidence for zinggy stuff, not words on a page.

Well, since Christianity exists today, when and where does your empirical evidence suggest it started?

Which form are you speaking about?

The bible?

I don’t believe any empirical evidence exists for the exact date. Though there is scholarly evidence based on carbon dating of an existing text.

About 7,000 years ago, give or take a bit (in present day Iraq of all places) ancient Mesopotamian culture created the Epic of Gilgamesh (which was lengthy narrative of heroic mythology that incorporates many of the religious myths of Mesopotamia, and it is the earliest complete literary work that has survived). Many of the stories from that epic appear to be the foundation of the bible, given that the Book of Genesis borrowed the stories of the creation of man in a wondrous garden, the introduction of evil into a naive world, and the story of a great flood brought on by the wickedness of man, that flooded the whole world from it.

So that would be a logical starting point for the bible as a written work. It is impossible to tell how long prior to that the ancient forefathers of Iraq started telling the stories that would be co-opted by the Christians. It could well date back quite a ways beyond that.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Empirical evidence. I need empirical evidence for zinggy stuff, not words on a page.

Well, since Christianity exists today, when and where does your empirical evidence suggest it started?

Which form are you speaking about?

I was speaking about the Christian church.  Where and when did it begin, according to your evidence?

[nlm]

Empirical evidence. I need empirical evidence for zinggy stuff, not words on a page.

Well, since Christianity exists today, when and where does your empirical evidence suggest it started?

Which form are you speaking about?

The bible?

I don’t believe any empirical evidence exists for the exact date. Though there is scholarly evidence based on carbon dating of an existing text.

About 7,000 years ago, give or take a bit (in present day Iraq of all places) ancient Mesopotamian culture created the Epic of Gilgamesh (which was lengthy narrative of heroic mythology that incorporates many of the religious myths of Mesopotamia, and it is the earliest complete literary work that has survived). Many of the stories from that epic appear to be the foundation of the bible, given that the Book of Genesis borrowed the stories of the creation of man in a wondrous garden, the introduction of evil into a naive world, and the story of a great flood brought on by the wickedness of man, that flooded the whole world from it.

So that would be a logical starting point for the bible as a written work. It is impossible to tell how long prior to that the ancient forefathers of Iraq started telling the stories that would be co-opted by the Christians. It could well date back quite a ways beyond that.

I was speaking about the Christian church.  Where and when did it begin, according to your evidence?

Honestly, I've never looked at it from that stand point. Once I reviewwd the scholarly evidence on the origins of the book that is the foundation of the church - I didn't see a reason to waste more time in fantasy land.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I was speaking about the Christian church.  Where and when did it begin, according to your evidence?

Honestly, I've never looked at it from that stand point. Once I reviewwd the scholarly evidence on the origins of the book that is the foundation of the church - I didn't see a reason to waste more time in fantasy land.

Then let's go straight to the scholarly evidence you have reviewed…you stated:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What is the evidence that “the Book of Genesis borrowed the stories”?

[nlm]

I was speaking about the Christian church.  Where and when did it begin, according to your evidence?

Honestly, I've never looked at it from that stand point. Once I reviewwd the scholarly evidence on the origins of the book that is the foundation of the church - I didn't see a reason to waste more time in fantasy land.

Then let's go straight to the scholarly evidence you have reviewed…you stated:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What is the evidence that “the Book of Genesis borrowed the stories”?

As amusing as this is jmfsct, I'm not going to get caught at a tactical disadvantage in an easter bunny debate by being the only one answering questions.

There are dozens of scholarly books about the writing of the bible ready for purchase at your local book store. I'm not going to do them the injustice of trying to compress them into a few lines on the internet.

You are the one that has dedicated your life to this crazy stuff, you are the one walking around judging who is good and who is bad based on identifiable tripe. Maybe you should show the intellectual curiosity to go pick some of this stuff up, think outside the box, learn how the book you think so much of was constructed, weight the evidence, and move forward. Haha, as if there is a chance of that.