Yes or No. Is the universe 12,000 years old? Dont hide behind your bible. No but

[GOP = Terrorists]

If the destiny of everything is nothing, then everything is completely meaningless and has no value.   If our destiny is nothing, then the value of nothing is nothing.  Period.

I think that is a sad statement about yourself.  About how much you value your parents, your friends, your children, your wife, your community.  About how much you value yourself and about how much you value humanity.  The fact that you need an external stimulus to value your own existance makes me feel very sorry for you. =(

[J. J.]

If what happens after death is different than what you believe your life still has value. =)

If the destiny of everything is nothing, then everything is completely meaningless and has no value.   If our destiny is nothing, then the value of nothing is nothing.  Period.

Did you ever consider that our destiny is shaped by what we do in this life?

[opebo]

If what happens after death is different than what you believe your life still has value. =)

If the destiny of everything is nothing, then everything is completely meaningless and has no value.   If our destiny is nothing, then the value of nothing is nothing.  Period.

I thought the 'value' of things came from 'the Market', jmfcst:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=36066.0

[CheeseWhiz]

No... We know that for sure.

While I respect your beliefs in the matter, and I myself don't believe this to be true (where did 12,000 come from, anyway?  I thought it was 6,000 years, not 12,000) no one can really say you know for sure unless you get a time machine and check yourself.  I don't even say that I know for absolute sure that evolution isn't true, I just don't think it is.

Don't blind the ignorant with science; it'll only confuse them.

Who are you referring to when you say "the ignorant"?  Hopefully you don't mean everyone who rejects the theory of evolution, do you?

[afleitch]

One of the problems we have is that science can mean absolutely nothing to people of 'faith.' It is simply ignored by them, or science is claimed to be 'anti' something or other . If homosexuality for example is (and it probably will be soon considering recent research) proven to be genetically inclined and apparent in embryos, those who use 'faith' to be anti-gay will simply ignore thousands of scientists or claim they are pursuing a 'gay agenda.'

For so many people the Bible is all you need to know and if it isn't in the Bible it's not worth knowing. Reason and rationality is thrown out the window if it doesn't compliment faith. It is the same rational that is used by current protests over the Mohammed cartoons for existence and people of all faiths are capable of it.

Religious people claim to say 'God spoke to me.' Why can he not 'speak to' scientists or philosphers also? Surely the man in the pulpit doesn't think he is more worth of God's attention than a man staring into a test tube! If however if you can use your rationality to say to yourself 'perhaps science is god's gift.' In that God speaks through scientists from Galileo to Stephen Hawking to advance and benefit mankind, you can reach a conclusion that pursing knowledge is part of God's 'plan' even if the results contradict the OT.

[CheeseWhiz]

One of the problems we have is that science can mean absolutely nothing to people of 'faith.' It is simply ignored by them, or science is claimed to be 'anti' something or other . If homosexuality for example is (and it probably will be soon considering recent research) proven to be genetically inclined and apparent in embryos, those who use 'faith' to be anti-gay will simply ignore thousands of scientists or claim they are pursuing a 'gay agenda.'

I really can't see how that relates at all with our rejection of evolution.  Sure, some take it to the extreme, but so do some evolutionist.

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Now you're being pretty harsh on religious people, don't you think?  I'm religious, and have I been like this?  It's really only a handful extremist that act like how you say, just like the extremist Muslims put a bad image on the rest of them.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Huh?  Now you're just sounding kind of weird   I reject evolution because after much research I believe it just has too many flaws.  Yes, it has a lot of evidence, and yes, it's a very interesting theory, but I think a lot of people accept it blindly and them condemn those who do the same thing in reverse.  Yes, of course evolution could be true, I don't believe it is, but I have been wrong before, but some people need to accept that it could be false, too.

[CheeseWhiz]

God could speak to people who ardently reject any belief whatsoever in a Deity, or maybe not. I'm not sure. All I can say is that you have dumb Creationists and smart ones, just as you have dumb Evolutionists and smart ones. Keep that in mind, kids.

^^^^^

That's pretty much all I was trying to say

[afleitch]

I am not being harsh on religious people People seem to forget I am one myself.

Secondly I reject creationism for two reasons. I believe evolution is scientifically more valid and secondly the Catholic Church also rejects creationism. It could be said therefore, that I am fulfulling my Catholic 'religious duty' in opposing creationism.

Neither my faith nor my reason compells me to support creationism or intelligent design.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If what happens after death is different than what you believe your life still has value. =)

If the destiny of everything is nothing, then everything is completely meaningless and has no value.   If our destiny is nothing, then the value of nothing is nothing.  Period.

Did you ever consider that our destiny is shaped by what we do in this life?

Yes, obviously I believe our destiny (whether heaven or hell) is determined by what happens in our lives.

But, for someone not to believe in God, they also must believe that we all have the exact same destiny and therefore our actions (whether loving or hateful) are irrelevant.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If the destiny of everything is nothing, then everything is completely meaningless and has no value.   If our destiny is nothing, then the value of nothing is nothing.  Period.

I think that is a sad statement about yourself.

To the contrary, it is a sad statement about you, because it is a picture of your faith.

(...and go learn to use a reflexive pronoun reflexively.)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I am not being harsh on religious people People seem to forget I am one myself.

Secondly I reject creationism for two reasons. I believe evolution is scientifically more valid and secondly the Catholic Church also rejects creationism. It could be said therefore, that I am fulfulling my Catholic 'religious duty' in opposing creationism.

So, you agree with your church on non-salvational issues (e.g. how God created the universe), but you disagree with your church on salvational issues (e.g. adultery, homosexuality)....it could be said therefore, that you are following only what your itchy ears want to hear.

[afleitch]

I am not being harsh on religious people People seem to forget I am one myself.

Secondly I reject creationism for two reasons. I believe evolution is scientifically more valid and secondly the Catholic Church also rejects creationism. It could be said therefore, that I am fulfulling my Catholic 'religious duty' in opposing creationism.

So, you agree with your church on non-salvational issues (e.g. how God created the universe), but you disagree with your church on salvational issues (e.g. adultery, homosexuality)....it could be said therefore, that you are following only what your itchy ears want to hear.

It is better to have itchy ears than closed eyes and a closed mind jmfcst

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It is better to have itchy ears than closed eyes and a closed mind jmfcst

You're contradicting yourself, for having itchy ears means that you have already rejected God's word:

2Tim 4:2-3 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Therefore, it is because of your own desires that you refuse to conform yourself to the word of God.  You refuse to repent because you rather serve your flesh than serve God.

[afleitch]

Therefore, it is because of your own desires that you refuse to conform yourself to the word of God.  You refuse to repent because you rather serve your flesh than serve God.

How dare you.

Do you not understand the concept of love? Do you not understand that I can love, emotionally love and physically love another man? I do not merely 'serve my flesh.' I love my partner and I would do anything for him. If I never had sex with him ever ever again, it would still not stop me from emotionally and physically loving him with every fiber of my bloody being.

If the ability to love is God given, then I am serving god in showing love whether to my partner or to my partner. Perhaps that is something you will understand. I feel very sorry for you jmfcst.

That is the last I will say on the matter.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Therefore, it is because of your own desires that you refuse to conform yourself to the word of God.  You refuse to repent because you rather serve your flesh than serve God.

How dare you.

Do you not understand the concept of love? Do you not understand that I can love, emotionally love and physically love another man?

1John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands.


Who do you love more, your homosexual lover or God?

[afleitch]

Therefore, it is because of your own desires that you refuse to conform yourself to the word of God.  You refuse to repent because you rather serve your flesh than serve God.

How dare you.

Do you not understand the concept of love? Do you not understand that I can love, emotionally love and physically love another man?

1John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands.


Who do you love more, your homosexual lover or God?

Just because you believe in absolutes doesn't mean I do

As you well know, someones love for god is different from their love for their brother, mother, friend, country or lover. Love can mean many different things and can be expressed in different ways.

I love them both. But my love of God is different from my love for my partner or any other person for that matter.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

1John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands.


Who do you love more, your homosexual lover or God?

Just because you believe in absolutes doesn't mean I do

"Unless you repent, you too will perish" (spoken by the absolutionist Jesus Christ, Luke 13:5 )

---

As you well know, someones love for god is different from their love for their brother, mother, friend, country or lover. Love can mean many different things and can be expressed in different ways.

I love them both. But my love of God is different from my love for my partner or any other person for that matter.

Afleitch, God has already determined the yardstick by which he measures  love for him, and his yardstick is obedience to his word. 

[opebo]

Who do you love more, your homosexual lover or God?

One would hope the former, as the latter is pure fantasy, nutter!

[muon2]

Don't blind the ignorant with science; it'll only confuse them.

Who are you referring to when you say "the ignorant"?  Hopefully you don't mean everyone who rejects the theory of evolution, do you?

His quote referenced my post, and I am surprised that it immediately is thrown at the debate about evolution. The question for the thread was about the age of the the universe, and I repsonded about the current scientific knowledge of our physical universe. Science can not and does not purport to measure beyond the physical universe. Knowledge of the age of the unverse at best makes an upper bound for any evolutionary timeline, but can also be viewed apart from the particulars of biology.

Tying different facts from science together can lead to unique understanding. However, it can also lead to misunderstanding. Science is about measuring the physical universe and finding patterns and relationships in those measurements. The age of the universe is measured better than ever, but we are still looking for the relationships between the age of universe and events closer to home, such as the origin of the solar system and life on the planet earth.

I happen to believe that evolution is the best model to explain all the measurements we have of biology and geology. But even as I expect to see further refinement of that model, I do not confuse it with the age of the universe.

[Q]

Who do you love more, your homosexual lover or God?

Who do you love more, your heterosexual lover or God?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Who do you love more, your homosexual lover or God?

Who do you love more, your heterosexual lover or God?

I love God more.  If my wife suggests some action outside of God's will, then I simply refuse it and offer an alternate course of action.  But my wife is a servant of Christ, therefore it is rare that she opening makes suggestions contrary to obedience to God.  Same goes for me.  We keep each other in check.

[nlm]

THOU SHALT NOT KILL. (unless you need to, and they are of a different religion, and a pre-emptive strike might stop them from doing something bad, and, and , and...)

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR. (Unless they have different politcal beliefs, then lie your ass off, spin as much as you can, and, and, and...) You would never do that jmfcst, would you?

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS. (unless you really need it, like oil, and the long term good of your country is served by it and, and and....)

It's all greek to me jmfcst, let's hear some good bible quotes that have more bearing on a Christian life than the "10 commandments" - are there such things?

I can not say I take the 10 commandments any more seriously than I take the words of Santa Clause in a bed time story - but are you not supposed to.

[John Dibble]

I can not say I take the 10 commandments any more seriously than I take the words of Santa Clause in a bed time story - but are you not supposed to.

I myself prefer George Carlin's reduction and revision of the 10.

1. Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.
2. Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

THOU SHALT NOT KILL. (unless you need to, and they are of a different religion, and a pre-emptive strike might stop them from doing something bad, and, and , and...)

Any reading of the scripture will tell you that the proper context is “Thou shalt not commit MURDER”.  God still allowed Israel to have an army and capital punishment.

I have never advocated the murder of anyone, regardless of their religion.

---

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR. (Unless they have different politcal beliefs, then lie your ass off, spin as much as you can, and, and, and...) You would never do that jmfcst, would you?

If you are going to accuse me of lying, then please provide an example.

---

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS. (unless you really need it, like oil, and the long term good of your country is served by it and, and and....)

You really believe Bush went to Iraq to steal their oil? 

Iraq was only pumping 2 million barrels a day and the price of oil was $30/barrel at the time.  So, that is $60 million per day times 365 days in a year = $22 billion a year in Iraq oil revenue.

Heck, the initial invasion alone cost $50 billion and, in the end, we’re going to end up spending at least $500 billion on Iraq.  So, we could have simply bought Iraqi production for the next 25 years.

Thieves don’t steal things that are only worth 4% of the effort required to pull off the crime.

---

It's all greek to me jmfcst

Yes, you have clearly demonstrated that simple math is conceptually foreign to you.

...And you shouldn't smile at your own ignorance.

[nlm]

What, you're not going to give me the pleasure of watching you try and spin the bible? Damn!!!!! I was really looking forward to that.

Oh, and the math is one of the many reasons I find our over sea adventures to be such an abuse of tax payers in this country. And when I think about Wolfie talking out his butt about the war paying for itself.....hehehehehe!



And you're not a spin machine jmfcst, what would ever make me think you bear false witness against others at will??? Take a look through your own posts, I don't know, maybe a look in the mirror might help you, but it would need to be an honest one, the self proclaimed true believers don't seem to be so good at that (just an opinion).

That's a little mean spirited of me - so sorry. It's just watching you spin the bible to justify rubbing salt in the wounds of those that disagree with you was so damn funny, I needed to see if it could be duplicated.