MN-05: Not a topic about Israel, thank you very much

[Zaybay]

What I don't like about the tweet is that it references a false God in a false religion. That's why I'm not voting for her in the primary.

Yeah, I dont like religion in politics either.

He's not talking about religion in politics. He's saying that because she is of a different religion, he won't support her.

ah, thats not cool

Edit: yeah, I dont think thats true

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What I don't like about the tweet is that it references a false God in a false religion. That's why I'm not voting for her in the primary.

Yeah, I dont like religion in politics either.

He's not talking about religion in politics. He's saying that because she is of a different religion, he won't support her.

Uh, look at my sig....

Also I was going to vote for Ellison before these recent revelations that just broke.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Thats fair, didnt think about that.

I still would rather not judge a person based on one tweet that uses vague language. Nothing else about her says her being an anti-semite, except for her tweet, which was, again, poorly written and had vague language.

And as for her non-apoligy, she make it rather clear that she isnt apologizing because she doesnt see it as attacking Jews:

https://twitter.com/ilhanmn/status/1002295140172664832?lang=en

Again, I could be completely wrong, and could be defending a rapid anti-Semite, but I just dont see that much proof in favor of it, unlike Trump's hatred of Mexicans, which is rather clear and obvious, and MN's Lewis, which refers to AAs directly and uses the hateful stereotype of being "stuck on entitlements".

That tweet just makes it worse, considering Israel isn't an appartheid state by every definition, and trying to legitimize the Jewish state with lies is just another indicator of antisemitism. So she doens't just ignore her antisemitic tweet, she reinforces it by attacking those who call her to apologize.

the Apartheid state is actually an anti-Zionist term, not an anti-Semite term. And thats the key I was trying to establish. From her other tweets and her history of being a legislator, it seems that she is a rabbid anti-Zionist, not an anti-Semite, which can be easily conflated.

Many Jewish leaders have called the state of Israel the same thing, and even the UN agrees with this assessment. So this is not antisemitism, its anti-Zionism.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/16/is-israel-an-apartheid-state-this-u-n-report-says-yes/?utm_term=.89c52a7a897c

I'm... I'm not saying that lying about Israel is antisemitic by itself. All I said was that it reinforced the previous tweet, and did the opposite of soothing fears about it.

[Chief Justice Keef]

Thats fair, didnt think about that.

I still would rather not judge a person based on one tweet that uses vague language. Nothing else about her says her being an anti-semite, except for her tweet, which was, again, poorly written and had vague language.

And as for her non-apoligy, she make it rather clear that she isnt apologizing because she doesnt see it as attacking Jews:

https://twitter.com/ilhanmn/status/1002295140172664832?lang=en

Again, I could be completely wrong, and could be defending a rapid anti-Semite, but I just dont see that much proof in favor of it, unlike Trump's hatred of Mexicans, which is rather clear and obvious, and MN's Lewis, which refers to AAs directly and uses the hateful stereotype of being "stuck on entitlements".

That tweet just makes it worse, considering Israel isn't an appartheid state by every definition, and trying to legitimize the Jewish state with lies is just another indicator of antisemitism. So she doens't just ignore her antisemitic tweet, she reinforces it by attacking those who call her to apologize. And if nothing else, this pathetic tweet just reflects badly on her character. It looks like one of Trump's tweets in response to critics.

They're gonna pass a bill that would legalize segregation between Arabs and Israelis! The ruling party is a collection of deeply racist ultranationalists. IT IS AN APARTHEID STATE, it is today's South Africa. What about the Gaza killings back in May at the hands of the IDF? Or the MP who said Netanyahu's policy on African refugees being that they're poisoning Israeli culture? Or the settlers in the West Bank that have made life hell for Palestinians that have lived there for generations?

And why is it that Muslim candidates are always given intense scrutiny over their views on Israel? I know Keith Ellison was very recently disgraced, but I remember the smears against his DNC chair campaign about how he was an antisemite because he hung around the Nation of Islam back in the 1990s. This whole "Omar is an antisemite!" reads like more Atlas poster anxiety about Muslims running for office, just like how El-Sayed was just too damn Muslim for Michigan.

[Zaybay]

Thats fair, didnt think about that.

I still would rather not judge a person based on one tweet that uses vague language. Nothing else about her says her being an anti-semite, except for her tweet, which was, again, poorly written and had vague language.

And as for her non-apoligy, she make it rather clear that she isnt apologizing because she doesnt see it as attacking Jews:

https://twitter.com/ilhanmn/status/1002295140172664832?lang=en

Again, I could be completely wrong, and could be defending a rapid anti-Semite, but I just dont see that much proof in favor of it, unlike Trump's hatred of Mexicans, which is rather clear and obvious, and MN's Lewis, which refers to AAs directly and uses the hateful stereotype of being "stuck on entitlements".

That tweet just makes it worse, considering Israel isn't an appartheid state by every definition, and trying to legitimize the Jewish state with lies is just another indicator of antisemitism. So she doens't just ignore her antisemitic tweet, she reinforces it by attacking those who call her to apologize.

the Apartheid state is actually an anti-Zionist term, not an anti-Semite term. And thats the key I was trying to establish. From her other tweets and her history of being a legislator, it seems that she is a rabbid anti-Zionist, not an anti-Semite, which can be easily conflated.

Many Jewish leaders have called the state of Israel the same thing, and even the UN agrees with this assessment. So this is not antisemitism, its anti-Zionism.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/16/is-israel-an-apartheid-state-this-u-n-report-says-yes/?utm_term=.89c52a7a897c

I'm... I'm not saying that lying about Israel is antisemitic by itself. All I said was that it reinforced the previous tweet, and did the opposite of soothing fears about it.

But it shows anti-Zionism, and not antisemitism, and thats what I've been trying to say. That the two are not the same, but can be easily conflated as both. I feel that Omar treated the situation poorly, yes, but shes not anti-Semetic, shes anti-Zionist, which is more common on the left.

Also, your backtrack at the beginning of the sentence is kind of telling. Being anti-Zionist isn't Antisemitic.

Saying "China is a corrupt, Plutocratic despot" doesnt make you against the Chinese people, it makes you against the state/country of China and its government.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Thats fair, didnt think about that.

I still would rather not judge a person based on one tweet that uses vague language. Nothing else about her says her being an anti-semite, except for her tweet, which was, again, poorly written and had vague language.

And as for her non-apoligy, she make it rather clear that she isnt apologizing because she doesnt see it as attacking Jews:

https://twitter.com/ilhanmn/status/1002295140172664832?lang=en

Again, I could be completely wrong, and could be defending a rapid anti-Semite, but I just dont see that much proof in favor of it, unlike Trump's hatred of Mexicans, which is rather clear and obvious, and MN's Lewis, which refers to AAs directly and uses the hateful stereotype of being "stuck on entitlements".

That tweet just makes it worse, considering Israel isn't an appartheid state by every definition, and trying to legitimize the Jewish state with lies is just another indicator of antisemitism. So she doens't just ignore her antisemitic tweet, she reinforces it by attacking those who call her to apologize. And if nothing else, this pathetic tweet just reflects badly on her character. It looks like one of Trump's tweets in response to critics.

They're gonna pass a bill that would legalize segregation between Arabs and Israelis! The ruling party is a collection of deeply racist ultranationalists. IT IS AN APARTHEID STATE, it is today's South Africa. What about the Gaza killings back in May at the hands of the IDF? Or the MP who said Netanyahu's policy on African refugees being that they're poisoning Israeli culture? Or the settlers in the West Bank that have made life hell for Palestinians that have lived there for generations?

And why is it that Muslim candidates are always given intense scrutiny over their views on Israel? I know Keith Ellison was very recently disgraced, but I remember the smears against his DNC chair campaign about how he was an antisemite because he hung around the Nation of Islam back in the 1990s. This whole "Omar is an antisemite!" reads like more Atlas poster anxiety about Muslims running for office, just like how El-Sayed was just too damn Muslim for Michigan.

....Lol. I live here, you don't need to tell me what laws we're passing, especially considering the fact that you're wrong. I honestly shouldn't bother becasue it both derails the thread and will fall on deaf ears, so this will be my last comment on the matter:

1. The section of the law that was supposed to allow local communities (both Jewish and Arab) to segragate is gone. It wasn't passed and won't pass.
2. You can shout as much as you want, but the cold, hard facts are that Israel is nothing like SA. There was an Arab Supreme Court Justice, the Arabic party is the third-biggest in the parliament, there's a Druze minister.
3. The Gaza killings? What does that have to do with appartheid? If you must know, the IDF was defending Israeli territory and citizens from literally hordes of hostile attackers. Sure, they were just brainwashed Palestinians sent by Hamas, but what were we supposed to do? Let them breach the border?
4. MK Oren Hazan is an a**hole and I have no sympathy for him. Rep. Steve King is an a**hole and I have no sympathy for him. Neither Israel nor the U.S. are appartheid states.
5. The settlers make life hell for Palestinians, the Palestinians make life hell for the settlers. The military occupation is a sad reality and it's time BOTH governments become ready for compromise and peace.

As for the "anxiety" about Muslim candidates- no. The Nation of Islam is antisemitic, so obviously Ellison hanging out with them was bad, but he made it clear that he's not an antisemite. Neither are El Sayyed or Tlaib. Omar is.

But it shows anti-Zionism, and not antisemitism, and thats what I've been trying to say. That the two are not the same, but can be easily conflated as both. I feel that Omar treated the situation poorly, yes, but shes not anti-Semetic, shes anti-Zionist, which is more common on the left.

Also, your backtrack at the beginning of the sentence is kind of telling. Being anti-Zionist isn't Antisemitic.

My "backtrack" was a rhetorical tool to show that I'm frustrated by you not really reading my posts As I said, this will be my last comment on the matter- this is feeling exactly like arguing with alt-right conservatives about racist dogwhistles.

[Zaybay]

Thats fair, didnt think about that.

I still would rather not judge a person based on one tweet that uses vague language. Nothing else about her says her being an anti-semite, except for her tweet, which was, again, poorly written and had vague language.

And as for her non-apoligy, she make it rather clear that she isnt apologizing because she doesnt see it as attacking Jews:

https://twitter.com/ilhanmn/status/1002295140172664832?lang=en

Again, I could be completely wrong, and could be defending a rapid anti-Semite, but I just dont see that much proof in favor of it, unlike Trump's hatred of Mexicans, which is rather clear and obvious, and MN's Lewis, which refers to AAs directly and uses the hateful stereotype of being "stuck on entitlements".

That tweet just makes it worse, considering Israel isn't an appartheid state by every definition, and trying to legitimize the Jewish state with lies is just another indicator of antisemitism. So she doens't just ignore her antisemitic tweet, she reinforces it by attacking those who call her to apologize. And if nothing else, this pathetic tweet just reflects badly on her character. It looks like one of Trump's tweets in response to critics.

They're gonna pass a bill that would legalize segregation between Arabs and Israelis! The ruling party is a collection of deeply racist ultranationalists. IT IS AN APARTHEID STATE, it is today's South Africa. What about the Gaza killings back in May at the hands of the IDF? Or the MP who said Netanyahu's policy on African refugees being that they're poisoning Israeli culture? Or the settlers in the West Bank that have made life hell for Palestinians that have lived there for generations?

And why is it that Muslim candidates are always given intense scrutiny over their views on Israel? I know Keith Ellison was very recently disgraced, but I remember the smears against his DNC chair campaign about how he was an antisemite because he hung around the Nation of Islam back in the 1990s. This whole "Omar is an antisemite!" reads like more Atlas poster anxiety about Muslims running for office, just like how El-Sayed was just too damn Muslim for Michigan.

....Lol. I live here, you don't need to tell me what laws we're passing, especially considering the fact that you're wrong. I honestly shouldn't bother becasue it both derails the thread and will fall on deaf ears, so this will be my last comment on the matter:

1. The section of the law that was supposed to allow local communities (both Jewish and Arab) to segragate is gone. It wasn't passed and won't pass.
2. You can shout as much as you want, but the cold, hard facts are that Israel is nothing like SA. There was an Arab Supreme Court Justice, the Arabic party is the third-biggest in the parliament, there's a Druze minister.
3. The Gaza killings? What does that have to do with appartheid? If you must know, the IDF was defending Israeli territory and citizens from literally hordes of hostile attackers. Sure, they were just brainwashed Palestinians sent by Hamas, but what were we supposed to do? Let them breach the border?
4. MK Oren Hazan is an a**hole and I have no sympathy for him. Rep. Steve King is an a**hole and I have no sympathy for him. Neither Israel nor the U.S. are appartheid states.
5. The settlers make life hell for Palestinians, the Palestinians make life hell for the settlers. The military occupation is a sad reality and it's time BOTH governments become ready for compromise and peace.

As for the "anxiety" about Muslim candidates- no. The Nation of Islam is antisemitic, so obviously Ellison hanging out with them was bad, but he made it clear that he's not an antisemite. Neither are El Sayyed or Tlaib. Omar is.

But it shows anti-Zionism, and not antisemitism, and thats what I've been trying to say. That the two are not the same, but can be easily conflated as both. I feel that Omar treated the situation poorly, yes, but shes not anti-Semetic, shes anti-Zionist, which is more common on the left.

Also, your backtrack at the beginning of the sentence is kind of telling. Being anti-Zionist isn't Antisemitic.

My "backtrack" was a rhetorical tool to show that I'm frustrated by you not really reading my posts As I said, this will be my last comment on the matter- this is feeling exactly like arguing with alt-right conservatives about racist dogwhistles.

Its kind of becoming obvious that you are conflating the Jewish people, and the Jewish state, which is terrible, especially since that leads to dangerous ideas. As for everything you mentioned, its a pretty poor defense.

1. The fact that this is a bill that is being seriously debated by parliament is a bad sign

2. This is akin to someone saying "Im not racist against Blacks, I have a Black friend!". Its a rather poor excuse, and the fact that the Arabs and Jews have separated into separate political parties is a terrible sign.

3. International news media condemned the attacks and so did every other nation, except the USA and Israel. You cant just flip a narrative so that the government is always in the best light.

4. Most investigations say otherwise, but alright

5. I agree, there should be a compromise and a final decision, but both parties have become so entrenched, and one party has become so in control of the situation, that a compromise is starting to seem impossible.

The Nation of Islam has a lot of evidence showing antisemitism, from revisionist history, to praising Hitler, but Omar just has one vague tweet, which is anti-Zionist, which is not the same.


And you still have not pointed out how Im wrong, I would love to be wrong, because I feel terrible defending her, but all there is is one tweet.
Shes likely going to be a congresswoman, and if she continues inflammatory dialogue, then she should be kicked out.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The difference is that the attack on Ellison was pure guilt by association and he renounced those associations while this is something Omar actually said.

[Strudelcutie4427]

https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/269488770066313216

Here’s your nominee, Democrats.

[Zaybay]

https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/269488770066313216

Here’s your nominee, Democrats.

we already have a thread for this, and we are already having a discussion about it. Bit late.

[Chief Justice Keef]

3. The Gaza killings? What does that have to do with appartheid? If you must know, the IDF was defending Israeli territory and citizens from literally hordes of hostile attackers. Sure, they were just brainwashed Palestinians sent by Hamas, but what were we supposed to do? Let them breach the border?

This statement alone contains far more racist connotations than anything Omar has ever said about Israel.

Omar is not an antisemite.

[America Needs R'hllor]

3. The Gaza killings? What does that have to do with appartheid? If you must know, the IDF was defending Israeli territory and citizens from literally hordes of hostile attackers. Sure, they were just brainwashed Palestinians sent by Hamas, but what were we supposed to do? Let them breach the border?

This statement alone contains far more racist connotations than anything Omar has ever said about Israel.

Omar is not an antisemite.

Lol ok, if you say so. Make sure to tell that to all the Arabs you're peacefully coexisting with

[MAINEiac4434]

2. You can shout as much as you want, but the cold, hard facts are that Israel is nothing like SA. There was an Arab Supreme Court Justice, the Arabic party is the third-biggest in the parliament, there's a Druze minister.

America is not racist because Clarence Thomas

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Honestly though, can anyone explain what's wrong with Patricia Torres Ray, my candidate? She also supports single-payer, has called to abolish ICE and was even arrested while attending a protest against ICE deportations and family separations. And she's a far more experienced and accomplished legislator.

[Boobs]

Clearly the Nice Gal FF Anti-Zionist isn’t antisemitic because she’s totally not using variations of rhetoric from Protocols, nope, no sir-ee, not at all.


Pretty interesting how all these “anti-Zionists” use antisemitic language when speaking about Israel rather than actually criticising any specific policy, but, hey, if that’s the hill you want to die on, be my guest.

[America Needs R'hllor]

2. You can shout as much as you want, but the cold, hard facts are that Israel is nothing like SA. There was an Arab Supreme Court Justice, the Arabic party is the third-biggest in the parliament, there's a Druze minister.

America is not racist because Clarence Thomas

America is, indeed, not an appartheid state. Is there racism in America? Sure. Is there racism in Israel? Sure. Do we have a lot of work to do to improve the situation of minorities in both? Of course. This doesn't make this old claim any less a lie, usually meant to delegitimize the Jewish State.

[Zaybay]

2. You can shout as much as you want, but the cold, hard facts are that Israel is nothing like SA. There was an Arab Supreme Court Justice, the Arabic party is the third-biggest in the parliament, there's a Druze minister.

America is not racist because Clarence Thomas

America is, indeed, not an appartheid state. Is there racism in America? Sure. Is there racism in Israel? Sure. Do we have a lot of work to do to improve the situation of minorities in both? Of course. This doesn't make this old claim any less a lie, usually meant to delegitimize the Jewish State.

You sound so much like an ultra-nationalist right now. The UN found it was similar to an apartheid state, and thats the facts. Thats not opinion, thats fact.

[Zaybay]

Honestly though, can anyone explain what's wrong with Patricia Torres Ray, my candidate? She also supports single-payer, has called to abolish ICE and was even arrested while attending a protest against ICE deportations and family separations. And she's a far more experienced and accomplished legislator.

TBH I dont know, and I would be glad with her as Rep. I just have a problem with chalking up everything to one little thing and assuming they are a terrible person, especially when the evidence is rather small and has no clear intent.

Yes, I am going to law school

And yes, I like to debate way too much

[America Needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS]

Can we all agree that regardless of how we feel about the issue, violence (which is what Omar is calling for) is not a desirable outcome when it comes to the middle east.

[Zaybay]

Can we all agree that regardless of how we feel about the issue, violence (which is what Omar is calling for) is not a desirable outcome when it comes to the middle east.

What? She called for violence? Thats unacceptable!

Can you please quote when she said it

[America Needs R'hllor]

2. You can shout as much as you want, but the cold, hard facts are that Israel is nothing like SA. There was an Arab Supreme Court Justice, the Arabic party is the third-biggest in the parliament, there's a Druze minister.

America is not racist because Clarence Thomas

America is, indeed, not an appartheid state. Is there racism in America? Sure. Is there racism in Israel? Sure. Do we have a lot of work to do to improve the situation of minorities in both? Of course. This doesn't make this old claim any less a lie, usually meant to delegitimize the Jewish State.

You sound so much like an ultra-nationalist right now. The UN found it was similar to an apartheid state, and thats the facts. Thats not opinion, thats fact.

 
You clearly don't know anything about the situation here. Give me a break- my hometown is a *mixed* Jewish-Arabic city and I currently live in Jerusalem, I know what's going on here. The UN is the organization that has Saudi Arabia on its Human Rights Council and which decided that "zionism is racism" (which is blatant antisemitism- saying Jewish self-determination is illegitimate). Its foundings aren't facts.
Arabic Israelis have FULL legal equal rights and representation in government. Meanwhile, by the way, all the surrounding Arabic countries drove off their Jews.

Anyway, I shall stay true to my words and stop debating this with you. I'd say "you should know better if you go to law school", but considering my ex is a law student, my anti-bias would be too strong to say this

[Zaybay]

2. You can shout as much as you want, but the cold, hard facts are that Israel is nothing like SA. There was an Arab Supreme Court Justice, the Arabic party is the third-biggest in the parliament, there's a Druze minister.

America is not racist because Clarence Thomas

America is, indeed, not an appartheid state. Is there racism in America? Sure. Is there racism in Israel? Sure. Do we have a lot of work to do to improve the situation of minorities in both? Of course. This doesn't make this old claim any less a lie, usually meant to delegitimize the Jewish State.

You sound so much like an ultra-nationalist right now. The UN found it was similar to an apartheid state, and thats the facts. Thats not opinion, thats fact.

 
You clearly don't know anything about the situation here. Give me a break- my hometown is a *mixed* Jewish-Arabic city and I currently live in Jerusalem, I know what's going on here. The UN is the organization that has Saudi Arabia on its Human Rights Council and which decided that "zionism is racism" (which is blatant antisemitism- saying Jewish self-determination is illegitimate). Its foundings aren't facts.
Arabic Israelis have FULL legal equal rights and representation in government. Meanwhile, by the way, all the surrounding Arabic countries drove off their Jews.

Anyway, I shall stay true to my words and stop debating this with you. I'd say "you should know better if you go to law school", but considering my ex is a law student, my anti-bias would be too strong to say this

This is hilarious. You cant just say "things arent like that, because I know, or I live in, or Im friends with" to justify an argument. That is incredibly flimsy and easy to poke holes in, so I will.

1. The UN human Rights council cycles its members. This should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the UN. The only permanent membership is the big 5 (USA, RUSSIA, FRANCE, UK, CHINA) on the security council. In fact, the last time SA was on the council was in was the same time multiple UN investigations found human rights abuses in the country.

2. Zionism is not antisemitic. Thats just blatantly false. Antisemitism is against the Jewish People, Anti-Zionism is against the ethic-nationalist movement. Conflating the two is the whole reason this debate started in the first place. France is not anti-semetic because it said that the settlements on the west bank are illegal, but it can be anti-Zionist. There is a big difference.

3. Every human rights report done by multiple commissions with different countries has said otherwise, but hey, you live there, so you know best

Anyway, if you dont want to continue, thats fine.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Anyway, if you dont want to continue, thats fine.

I mean, you just completely ignored or twisted every argument I made (1 is besides the point, 2 completely ignores the fact that what I was talking about was a *UN decision* that called Zionism racism, 3 is false and all the arguments about the cold, hard facts on the ground were ignored), so it's kinda pointless, isn't it?

[Zaybay]

Anyway, if you dont want to continue, thats fine.

I mean, you just completely ignored or twisted every argument I made (1 is besides the point, 2 completely ignores the fact that what I was talking about was a *UN decision* that called Zionism racism, 3 is false and all the arguments about the cold, hard facts on the ground were ignored), so it's kinda pointless, isn't it?

You havent refuted anything.

1 Is true. Your claim was that the investigations were done when SA was on the council, disqualifying the findings. And, that is false. And it isnt besides the point if the findings are that Israel is similar to an Apartheid state.

2 if you dont like what the UN voted on, then sure. It was revoked later on. But a majority of nations voted for it, and saw it as the right thing, so thats what happened.


3 is true, its what every finding has found. If you dont want to believe it, fine, but thats what every paper, investigation, and finding has shown.

It is kinda pointless to argue when one doesnt even want to listen to the facts.

[Torie]

Well I might as well say my piece here at the risk of throwing more lighter fluid on this quite acrimonious and nasty exchange that has been going on in places above.

Given my assumptions, and  that millions of Jews actually live in Israel, surrounded by people who don't want them there at all, I find the path to be at once anti Zionist while not being anti Jewish, to be a very thin one indeed. My assumptions are that if the Jewish state is ended, Jews will soon become a minority there, with their lives becoming intolerable, and most will have to flee/leave attended by violence and death. Given such horrific prospects for the Jews living there, to wish the end of Jewish state is to wish very bad things to happen to millions of Jews. I suppose one can argue that is not anti-Semitism, because one thinks the Jews elsewhere are just fine, but that point of view does not do much for me, and I doubt it is very appealing to most Jews.

Granted, the path would be wider if one rejects my assumptions, and rather assumes that the end of the Jewish state would, perhaps after a rough patch, result in a pluralistic  secular  democracy like the US, in which basic individual  rights are protected by laws and independent courts attended by a culture that puts a very high premium on protecting such rights, where few really want horrible things to happen to a substantial number of its citizens, and differences are resolved peacefully. I don't see any evidence to support such an assumption, but others may just characterize me as blind, and that I need to see an ophthalmologist.