If Non Binary Genders are Real and Just as Valid as Man and Woman...

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Here's a non-binary person who is awaiting their murder trial.

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/11/13/former-cal-student-held-to-answer-in-fatal-stabbing-of-teacher-in-berkeley/

[wxtransit]

Prisoners should be housed according to their legal gender.

[Former President tack50]

IMO in the case of large countries where making transgender only prisions would be enough to fill them, build a transgender prision and put them there.

Since I don't think there's any country with enough transgender prisioners to justify such a thing, just ask them which prision they want to go to and put them there. But don't allow changing at will, you can't have prisioners changing jails every few days.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

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I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

You're arguing that trans people should be forced to go through hell literally just because of their chromosomes. Go f**k yourself.

I'm not even talking about ftm or mtf, those fall within the gender binary.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also I like how the OP doesn't even consider degendering prisons.

Locking women prisoners up with male rapists, sexual abusers and all sorts of violent offenders? I don't see a problem at all!

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yeah, even ignoring the sex predators the sheer fact that more far more men are imprisoned than women make co-ed prisons an uncomfortable prospect.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either party.  That doesn't change the fact that Republican and Democratic are the only parties that are real. This is because the two main parties are based on policy while the other ones are based on idealism. Many of these non-binary voters are also exclusive to certain states.  If they were real parties they would be national.

[America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗]

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either party.  That doesn't change the fact that Republican and Democratic are the only parties that are real. This is because the two main parties are based on policy while the other ones are based on idealism. Many of these non-binary voters are also exclusive to certain states.  If they were real parties they would be national.

Uh, what?

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

So, after some research, I learned that two-spirit is a modern invention and was never used by Native American societies.  I am not surprised at all.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either party.  That doesn't change the fact that Republican and Democratic are the only parties that are real. This is because the two main parties are based on policy while the other ones are based on idealism. Many of these non-binary voters are also exclusive to certain states.  If they were real parties they would be national.

Call me back when different political parties have different biological functions.

[Goldwater]

IMO in the case of large countries where making transgender only prisions would be enough to fill them, build a transgender prision and put them there.

Er, wouldn't this run into the same issues as putting man and women in the same prison?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

So, after some research, I learned that two-spirit is a modern invention and was never used by Native American societies.  I am not surprised at all.

Are you unable to read or something? The term two-spirit is a modern neologism, yeah, but it was born as an umbrella phrase from a whole range of behaviours performed by native Americans, because - shocker - the natives had many different cultures with many different traditions.

[SingingAnalyst]

Prisoners are people, too.

As in all cases, we should place them where their needs are met, while keeping them in a place where they cannot harm society and hopefully can become rehabilitated.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Also I like how the OP doesn't even consider degendering prisons.

Locking women prisoners up with male rapists, sexual abusers and all sorts of violent offenders? I don't see a problem at all!

At least theyd have equality.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Also I like how the OP doesn't even consider degendering prisons.

Locking women prisoners up with male rapists, sexual abusers and all sorts of violent offenders? I don't see a problem at all!

Rapists get special rooms.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Also I like how the OP doesn't even consider degendering prisons.

Exposing women to violent male criminals sounds like a great idea. Do you call yourself a feminist?

[catographer]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

If you don't believe nonbinary people are real, then the best way to treat them medically is to allow them to adopt their preferred gender and live accordingly. people's gender identity cannot be changed with science or medicine. therefore the best way to treat trans or nonbinary individuals for their physical and mental health is to change their body (where possible) to match their psychology, not the other way around. also it is proven that transitioning for transgender people with gender dysphoria lowers their depression, suicide rates, and increases overall happiness and social adjustment.

it is not a case of "lying to them to make them happy." there is no widespread phenomenon of a group of people living happily and healthily who identify as something bullsh*t like "frog" or "cat;" there is a group of happy and healthy people who don't have the gender identity of 100% male or 100% female.

on the two-spirit issue, perhaps you could see it instead as an example of how gender can differ depending on culture, and how it isn't solely biological.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

So, after some research, I learned that two-spirit is a modern invention and was never used by Native American societies.  I am not surprised at all.

Are you unable to read or something? The term two-spirit is a modern neologism, yeah, but it was born as an umbrella phrase from a whole range of behaviours performed by native Americans, because - shocker - the natives had many different cultures with many different traditions.

I was led to believe that two-spirit was a translation of a specific gender that existed in multiple Native American societies.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

If you don't believe nonbinary people are real, then the best way to treat them medically is to allow them to adopt their preferred gender and live accordingly. people's gender identity cannot be changed with science or medicine. therefore the best way to treat trans or nonbinary individuals for their physical and mental health is to change their body (where possible) to match their psychology, not the other way around. also it is proven that transitioning for transgender people with gender dysphoria lowers their depression, suicide rates, and increases overall happiness and social adjustment.

What you are saying is that people should be allowed to identify as whatever they feel like.  If gender is only based on what people feel, then it is a worthless classification of people and should be discarded in favor of sex.

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How are you sure that all otherkin are not happy?  The reason we don't see so many of them is because it hasn't been declared a civil rights category yet.

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Well, I believe that those cultures were either wrong or (more likely) we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture.

[catographer]

What you are saying is that people should be allowed to identify as whatever they feel like.  If gender is only based on what people feel, then it is a worthless classification of people and should be discarded in favor of sex.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How are you sure that all otherkin are not happy?  The reason we don't see so many of them is because it hasn't been declared a civil rights category yet.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, I believe that those cultures were either wrong or (more likely) we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture.

1. big misconception that it is "feelings." do you "feel" heterosexual, or you are heterosexual? in this case, they "feel" nonbinary the same way you "feel" that you're a man. you dont just believe yourself to be a man because you made the logical calculation that your biological sex characteristics should determine your gender; your whole sense of being, your self-identity, which is very much real and not just ephemeral feelings, isn't invalid.

2. the reason we dont see people like that (frogs and cats) is because they dont exist. it's a total strawman, that there are people who are just going by "feelings" and ignoring biological reality. these people are very well aware of the disconnect between their biology and psychology. they didnt decide it would be better to live with the stress, prejudice, hate, and depression that comes with being transgender/nonbinary. it is something they didn't have control over, no more control over it than you have.

3. if you're right that "we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture," I'd argue that you saying that validates nonbinary reality even more, because nonbinary people existed even before we made up these "21st century western" concepts.

[wxtransit]

Also I like how the OP doesn't even consider degendering prisons.

Locking women prisoners up with male rapists, sexual abusers and all sorts of violent offenders? I don't see a problem at all!

Rapists get special rooms.

How does one exactly check if a person could potentially become a rapist? This is starting to get into Minority Report stuff here.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

What you are saying is that people should be allowed to identify as whatever they feel like.  If gender is only based on what people feel, then it is a worthless classification of people and should be discarded in favor of sex.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How are you sure that all otherkin are not happy?  The reason we don't see so many of them is because it hasn't been declared a civil rights category yet.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, I believe that those cultures were either wrong or (more likely) we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture.

1. big misconception that it is "feelings." do you "feel" heterosexual, or you are heterosexual? in this case, they "feel" nonbinary the same way you "feel" that you're a man. you dont just believe yourself to be a man because you made the logical calculation that your biological sex characteristics should determine your gender; your whole sense of being, your self-identity, which is very much real and not just ephemeral feelings, isn't invalid.

2. the reason we dont see people like that (frogs and cats) is because they dont exist. it's a total strawman, that there are people who are just going by "feelings" and ignoring biological reality. these people are very well aware of the disconnect between their biology and psychology. they didnt decide it would be better to live with the stress, prejudice, hate, and depression that comes with being transgender/nonbinary. it is something they didn't have control over, no more control over it than you have.

3. if you're right that "we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture," I'd argue that you saying that validates nonbinary reality even more, because nonbinary people existed even before we made up these "21st century western" concepts.

1: I'm heterosexual because that's kind of the default.  I'm not sure why some people are not heterosexual or to what extent genetics plays a role (before we go down that rabbit trail, no, I don't think that they choose to be attracted to the same sex).  I am a man because I have XY Chromosomes and have the typical male biological functions.

2: Not that long ago, no one was calling themselves a third gender.  Then it became trendy.  Society's views on social issues are changing rapidly.

3: 21st century Western civilization is probably the most likely place for someone to find a non-binary person.  I can't help but wonder if most of the supposed third genders weren't really considered genders at all.  IIRC one of the non-binary genders was simply an explanation for homosexuality.

[catographer]

1: I'm heterosexual because that's kind of the default.  I'm not sure why some people are not heterosexual or to what extent genetics plays a role (before we go down that rabbit trail, no, I don't think that they choose to be attracted to the same sex).  I am a man because I have XY Chromosomes and have the typical male biological functions.

2: Not that long ago, no one was calling themselves a third gender.  Then it became trendy.  Society's views on social issues are changing rapidly.

3: 21st century Western civilization is probably the most likely place for someone to find a non-binary person.  I can't help but wonder if most of the supposed third genders weren't really considered genders at all.  IIRC one of the non-binary genders was simply an explanation for homosexuality.

1. you're heterosexual because you know you are, because you're attracted to the opposite sex. and you are inherently aware of that. similarly, you know you're a man, even if you didn't know what your chromosomes or genitals were.
2 & 3. these are just blatantly, factually false. third genders exist in other cultures and throughout history. western society is experiencing a renaissance of awareness of people like this. people who live in the shadows are still there.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

Thinking about things more, the fact that sex segregated prisons seem like such a rape risk implies a problem with society in of itself (ie If we can't trust people to be in mixed prisons without serious problems, our culture has a pretty nasty streak through it). Though prison rape is already a huge problem, by both inmates and prisoners. Honestly, I think with proper guarding (if we could manage that, which is a massive "if"), a prison design that dies r cause the awful prison culture we have now, and segregated rooms, we could probably make it work.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Thinking about things more, the fact that sex segregated prisons seem like such a rape risk implies a problem with society in of itself (ie If we can't trust people to be in mixed prisons without serious problems, our culture has a pretty nasty streak through it).

Are we really supposed to judge society based on the conduct of those society has deeemed so dangerous and lawless that they had to be physically removed from society? Its not society's fault that Jeffrey dahmer murdered people and screwed their corpses.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

1: I'm heterosexual because that's kind of the default.  I'm not sure why some people are not heterosexual or to what extent genetics plays a role (before we go down that rabbit trail, no, I don't think that they choose to be attracted to the same sex).  I am a man because I have XY Chromosomes and have the typical male biological functions.

2: Not that long ago, no one was calling themselves a third gender.  Then it became trendy.  Society's views on social issues are changing rapidly.

3: 21st century Western civilization is probably the most likely place for someone to find a non-binary person.  I can't help but wonder if most of the supposed third genders weren't really considered genders at all.  IIRC one of the non-binary genders was simply an explanation for homosexuality.

1. you're heterosexual because you know you are, because you're attracted to the opposite sex. and you are inherently aware of that. similarly, you know you're a man, even if you didn't know what your chromosomes or genitals were.
2 & 3. these are just blatantly, factually false. third genders exist in other cultures and throughout history. western society is experiencing a renaissance of awareness of people like this. people who live in the shadows are still there.

Western society seems to be a lot more accommodating of non-binary genders than anywhere else on earth.  Go to Africa, go to China, go to places where life is difficult for the average person and tell them that there are genders besides man and woman.  They will not believe you.