If Non Binary Genders are Real and Just as Valid as Man and Woman...

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

1: I'm heterosexual because that's kind of the default.  I'm not sure why some people are not heterosexual or to what extent genetics plays a role (before we go down that rabbit trail, no, I don't think that they choose to be attracted to the same sex).  I am a man because I have XY Chromosomes and have the typical male biological functions.

2: Not that long ago, no one was calling themselves a third gender.  Then it became trendy.  Society's views on social issues are changing rapidly.

3: 21st century Western civilization is probably the most likely place for someone to find a non-binary person.  I can't help but wonder if most of the supposed third genders weren't really considered genders at all.  IIRC one of the non-binary genders was simply an explanation for homosexuality.

1. you're heterosexual because you know you are, because you're attracted to the opposite sex. and you are inherently aware of that. similarly, you know you're a man, even if you didn't know what your chromosomes or genitals were.
2 & 3. these are just blatantly, factually false. third genders exist in other cultures and throughout history. western society is experiencing a renaissance of awareness of people like this. people who live in the shadows are still there.

Western society seems to be a lot more accommodating of non-binary genders than anywhere else on earth.  Go to Africa, go to China, go to places where life is difficult for the average person and tell them that there are genders besides man and woman.  They will not believe you.

Interestingly, in a lot of developing countries the concept is more intuitive (or at least more accepted) than either homosexuality or transsexualism.

[RFayette 🇻🇦]

Thinking about things more, the fact that sex segregated prisons seem like such a rape risk implies a problem with society in of itself (ie If we can't trust people to be in mixed prisons without serious problems, our culture has a pretty nasty streak through it). Though prison rape is already a huge problem, by both inmates and prisoners. Honestly, I think with proper guarding (if we could manage that, which is a massive "if"), a prison design that dies r cause the awful prison culture we have now, and segregated rooms, we could probably make it work.

You must have a really high view of humanity if you believe that rape is only a problem because of society and not something intrinsic to the human condition.  By definition, prisons are self-selected for the least moral members of society - one in which we all have fallen, wicked natures.  The idea that someone who is not able to control their desires enough to not commit violent crimes that land them in prison will suddenly not act on their violent urges while in prison is just absurd.  If male rape is already a problem, as we see, why would the most violent cohort of society suddenly behave better if prisons are degendered?  It just creates an unnecessary additional staffing problem which could be resolved by keeping prisons gender-segregated. 

[teafarm99]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

[catographer]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes

This is the worst idea ever. Why shouldn't fraudsters like Bernie Madoff who ruin the lives of countless people see jail?

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

What does non-binary even mean? People who fall outside the gender binary? Guys who like sparkles and girls who like cargo shorts? Is this what has become of our society? Stereotypes?

[Medal506]

lol there's no such thing as "non binary genders" there's literally just male and female. I'm sorry to any left wing dummy who gets triggered by facts!

[Medal506]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

[Badger]

Thinking about things more, the fact that sex segregated prisons seem like such a rape risk implies a problem with society in of itself (ie If we can't trust people to be in mixed prisons without serious problems, our culture has a pretty nasty streak through it).

Are we really supposed to judge society based on the conduct of those society has deeemed so dangerous and lawless that they had to be physically removed from society? Its not society's fault that Jeffrey dahmer murdered people and screwed their corpses.

This * 100.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Scarlet, I propose you spend a week incarcerated with sex offenders and rethink that position.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

What does non-binary even mean? People who fall outside the gender binary? Guys who like sparkles and girls who like cargo shorts? Is this what has become of our society? Stereotypes?

Depends really.  Once upon a time, a girl who liked video games and basketball was called a tomboy, but that became (needlessly imo) a disparaging term.  Two sexes exist, but there's definitely a spectrum for that just as there is for sexuality.  You might call where you fall on that spectrum your "gender."

[world.execute(me)]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

Says a Republican in 2018.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

Says a Republican in 2018.

So if I had a red avatar you wouldn't actually have an argument.

Anyway, if you want to pretend that non-binary genderqueer trigenders are real, then you can do that.  The problem is when people declare it to be a civil rights issue, which means that people like me are the equivalent of the KKK.  If I have a student who thinks that they are a non binary gender and I don't play along I might lose my job.

[Kleine Scheiße]

https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2015/02/24/sex-biology-redefined-genes-dont-indicate-binary-sexes/

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https://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

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http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/12/opinion/how-many-sexes-are-there.html?pagewanted=all

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You want a biologically-centered argument, okay. Account for these millions of people. There is little evidence that the two-sex, genetically-determined model is true. If you study science beyond the twelfth grade, it becomes increasingly obvious that almost nothing taught below the graduate school level is practically relevant or verified.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

There are clearly a small number of people with intersex anatomy or physiology, but generally speaking if you have at least one Y you are genetically male and having extra X or Y chromosomes doesn't change that.

[world.execute(me)]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

Says a Republican in 2018.

So if I had a red avatar you wouldn't actually have an argument.

Anyway, if you want to pretend that non-binary genderqueer trigenders are real, then you can do that.  The problem is when people declare it to be a civil rights issue, which means that people like me are the equivalent of the KKK.  If I have a student who thinks that they are a non binary gender and I don't play along I might lose my job.

I was being snarky about the incredible irony of that statement.

Even if it wasn't "real", refusing to respect a student on things as trivial as pronouns means you probably shouldn't be a teacher. Also, honest question, would you respect the pronouns and identity of a binary trans person?

BTW Do you have any evidence that it doesn't exist? Chromosomes aren't an argument because brain gender and body sex aren't the same thing. Trans people aren't claiming they have the chromosomes of their gender.

[Kleine Scheiße]

There are clearly a small number of people with intersex anatomy or physiology, but generally speaking if you have at least one Y you are genetically male and having extra X or Y chromosomes doesn't change that.

While a fair point, this isn’t particularly relevant. The point is that “sex” is nebulous and not completely defined by genetics — if it’s even definable at all. That method of labeling just isn’t reflected by scientific reality.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Would you call me an attack helicopter if that's what I wanted? I'm actually curious.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

Says a Republican in 2018.

So if I had a red avatar you wouldn't actually have an argument.

Anyway, if you want to pretend that non-binary genderqueer trigenders are real, then you can do that.  The problem is when people declare it to be a civil rights issue, which means that people like me are the equivalent of the KKK.  If I have a student who thinks that they are a non binary gender and I don't play along I might lose my job.

I was being snarky about the incredible irony of that statement.

Even if it wasn't "real", refusing to respect a student on things as trivial as pronouns means you probably shouldn't be a teacher. Also, honest question, would you respect the pronouns and identity of a binary trans person?

BTW Do you have any evidence that it doesn't exist? Chromosomes aren't an argument because brain gender and body sex aren't the same thing. Trans people aren't claiming they have the chromosomes of their gender.

Even if it wasn't real?  So feelings are more important to you than reality?  For the record, while I'd call the person by whatever name they chose, I would not use some zie/zir/zimself pronoun.

Technically, it should be on you to prove it does exist, but anyway:

Humans reproduce sexually.  Sexual reproduction requires two sexes with different biology.  In English, we call these sexes "male" and "female."  Males have sperm, females have egg.  In very rare cases, there are defects, but sometimes we have to make generalizations (for instance, some humans are born without hands, but the general statement "humans have two hands" is true).

Of course, in English the word "sex" also refers to what the two sexes do together to make babies.  And some people don't like saying the word "sex" in public or around children.  Fortunately for them, they could easily just use the already existing word gender instead, which was basically a synonym.  Gender, which was mostly used in linguistics[1], now was used to describe men and women.  It meant the exact same thing until a handful of people changed the definition.  For most people, sex and gender are still synonyms.

So gender and sex are essentially the same thing.  There are are two sexes.  You could say that there are three genders but one of them (neuter) is not applicable to humans.  If you want to say there are genders besides male and female, I have two questions:  How do you define those genders, and what are their biological functions?  Just because someone feels that they are genderqueer does not mean that they are.

1: English and Mandarin only use gender in pronouns (in Chinese, which developed completely separately from English, they have characters for he, she, and it, but no other genders.)  Spanish and Portuguese only have masculine and feminine.  German, Russian, and Latin add neuter.  The recognition of a neuter gender did not mean that they believed in a third gender for humans.  Take the example of Das Mädchen (the girl) in German.  It is a neuter noun, but Germans still believed that girls were female. 

[Figueira]

Anyone who thinks that biological rules are iron-clad knows nothing about biology.

[Figueira]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

Says a Republican in 2018.

So if I had a red avatar you wouldn't actually have an argument.

Anyway, if you want to pretend that non-binary genderqueer trigenders are real, then you can do that.  The problem is when people declare it to be a civil rights issue, which means that people like me are the equivalent of the KKK.  If I have a student who thinks that they are a non binary gender and I don't play along I might lose my job.

Pretty sure Scarlet also disagrees with Bagel23.

I mean yeah if you insist on calling a student something they don't want to be called I would hope you would be fired, yeah. And no, the KKK have a history of violent attacks, not everyone who has bigoted views is equivalent to them.

[world.execute(me)]

Even if it wasn't real?  So feelings are more important to you than reality?  For the record, while I'd call the person by whatever name they chose, I would not use some zie/zir/zimself pronoun.

Your entire argument is based on your unsubstantiated feeling that physical sex is the sole determinant of gender.

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If you want to invalidate other people's identities, you get burden of proof.

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So because physical sex is a thing, mental gender has to match it?

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Linguistics is irrelevant to reality. Words can change meaning, and the differentiation is useful.

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Oh my god are you really claiming that physical sex and mental gender are the same thing because "gender" and "sex" have roughly the same meaning to most people? Now, I'm using the definition of "sex = physical, gender = mental" here for conveniences sake,  so don't try using etymology to argue. Gender isn't about "biological function", it's about identity. Trans people aren't denying that they have the parts of their birth sex.

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For someone who's claiming your position is based on biological reality you sure are focused on linguistics and how cultures felt about gender.

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.