If Non Binary Genders are Real and Just as Valid as Man and Woman...

[Figueira]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.

No, each person can determine on their own what gender they should present as; nobody is saying that doctors or parents or whoever should look at people's interests and decide that they must be trans.

A lot of TERFs really enjoy accusing trans people of supporting gender stereotypes, but this is not something that many actual trans people do.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

I have learned to respect people by either referring  to them by their name such as Caitlyn Jenner, because yes, that is their real name, regardless of what I think their gender/sex is. I am also fine with calling people and possessive traits by them or they or their, but there is also a line for me that I won't cross. I would not used one of those zir, zim, hees, heers, etc. stuff, nor call someone a pronoun that I don't agree with. Instead, I have learned a compromise where I can call people by neutral third person sounding pronouns, or by their name. It's tolerable for me, and at the same time is not offensive either.

[Figueira]

I have learned to respect people by either referring  to them by their name such as Caitlyn Jenner, because yes, that is their real name, regardless of what I think their gender/sex is. I am also fine with calling people and possessive traits by them or they or their, but there is also a line for me that I won't cross. I would not used one of those zir, zim, hees, heers, etc. stuff, nor call someone a pronoun that I don't agree with. Instead, I have learned a compromise where I can call people by neutral third person sounding pronouns, or by their name. It's tolerable for me, and at the same time is not offensive either.

If a trans person goes by she, she might be upset by "they" (although some people are fine with both).

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

I have learned to respect people by either referring  to them by their name such as Caitlyn Jenner, because yes, that is their real name, regardless of what I think their gender/sex is. I am also fine with calling people and possessive traits by them or they or their, but there is also a line for me that I won't cross. I would not used one of those zir, zim, hees, heers, etc. stuff, nor call someone a pronoun that I don't agree with. Instead, I have learned a compromise where I can call people by neutral third person sounding pronouns, or by their name. It's tolerable for me, and at the same time is not offensive either.

If a trans person goes by she, she might be upset by "they" (although some people are fine with both).

Fair enough, which is also why I stated that I am willing to just call an individual by their name as well.

[Figueira]

I have learned to respect people by either referring  to them by their name such as Caitlyn Jenner, because yes, that is their real name, regardless of what I think their gender/sex is. I am also fine with calling people and possessive traits by them or they or their, but there is also a line for me that I won't cross. I would not used one of those zir, zim, hees, heers, etc. stuff, nor call someone a pronoun that I don't agree with. Instead, I have learned a compromise where I can call people by neutral third person sounding pronouns, or by their name. It's tolerable for me, and at the same time is not offensive either.

If a trans person goes by she, she might be upset by "they" (although some people are fine with both).

Fair enough, which is also why I stated that I am willing to just call an individual by their name as well.

Why not their preferred pronouns?

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

I have learned to respect people by either referring  to them by their name such as Caitlyn Jenner, because yes, that is their real name, regardless of what I think their gender/sex is. I am also fine with calling people and possessive traits by them or they or their, but there is also a line for me that I won't cross. I would not used one of those zir, zim, hees, heers, etc. stuff, nor call someone a pronoun that I don't agree with. Instead, I have learned a compromise where I can call people by neutral third person sounding pronouns, or by their name. It's tolerable for me, and at the same time is not offensive either.

If a trans person goes by she, she might be upset by "they" (although some people are fine with both).

Fair enough, which is also why I stated that I am willing to just call an individual by their name as well.

Why not their preferred pronouns?

Because I am not willing to go that far, I already compromised enough.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.

No, each person can determine on their own what gender they should present as; nobody is saying that doctors or parents or whoever should look at people's interests and decide that they must be trans.

A lot of TERFs really enjoy accusing trans people of supporting gender stereotypes, but this is not something that many actual trans people do.

So your definition of 'man' (or 'woman') is "anyone who calls themselves a man (or woman)". Is that right?

If so I think there are obvious problems with such a definition.

[Figueira]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.

No, each person can determine on their own what gender they should present as; nobody is saying that doctors or parents or whoever should look at people's interests and decide that they must be trans.

A lot of TERFs really enjoy accusing trans people of supporting gender stereotypes, but this is not something that many actual trans people do.

So your definition of 'man' (or 'woman') is "anyone who calls themselves a man (or woman)". Is that right?

If so I think there are obvious problems with such a definition.

Essentially, yes (I don't think people should call themselves the wrong gender in bad faith, but that is not something that happens often for a variety of reasons).

What problems are you referring to?

[Statilius the Epicurean]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.

No, each person can determine on their own what gender they should present as; nobody is saying that doctors or parents or whoever should look at people's interests and decide that they must be trans.

A lot of TERFs really enjoy accusing trans people of supporting gender stereotypes, but this is not something that many actual trans people do.

So your definition of 'man' (or 'woman') is "anyone who calls themselves a man (or woman)". Is that right?

If so I think there are obvious problems with such a definition.

Essentially, yes (I don't think people should call themselves the wrong gender in bad faith, but that is not something that happens often for a variety of reasons).

What problems are you referring to?

What's to stop a person with a penis calling themselves a woman to get around gender equality quotas? Or gain access to scholarships for women in STEM?

And then there are the philosophical problems around what exactly it means to 'identify' as anything...

[Figueira]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.

No, each person can determine on their own what gender they should present as; nobody is saying that doctors or parents or whoever should look at people's interests and decide that they must be trans.

A lot of TERFs really enjoy accusing trans people of supporting gender stereotypes, but this is not something that many actual trans people do.

So your definition of 'man' (or 'woman') is "anyone who calls themselves a man (or woman)". Is that right?

If so I think there are obvious problems with such a definition.

Essentially, yes (I don't think people should call themselves the wrong gender in bad faith, but that is not something that happens often for a variety of reasons).

What problems are you referring to?

What's to stop a person with a penis calling themselves a woman to get around gender equality quotas? Or gain access to scholarships for women in STEM?

And then there are the philosophical problems around what exactly it means to 'identify' as anything...

That just isn't likely to be a big problem compared to the real problems facing trans women.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.

No, each person can determine on their own what gender they should present as; nobody is saying that doctors or parents or whoever should look at people's interests and decide that they must be trans.

A lot of TERFs really enjoy accusing trans people of supporting gender stereotypes, but this is not something that many actual trans people do.

So your definition of 'man' (or 'woman') is "anyone who calls themselves a man (or woman)". Is that right?

If so I think there are obvious problems with such a definition.

Essentially, yes (I don't think people should call themselves the wrong gender in bad faith, but that is not something that happens often for a variety of reasons).

What problems are you referring to?

What's to stop a person with a penis calling themselves a woman to get around gender equality quotas? Or gain access to scholarships for women in STEM?

And then there are the philosophical problems around what exactly it means to 'identify' as anything...

That just isn't likely to be a big problem compared to the real problems facing trans women.

1) I don't think "that isn't likely to be a big problem" is good enough. We don't know that.

2) Is the only possible way to address the real problems facing trans women to say that anyone who calls themselves a woman is a woman?

[Figueira]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.

No, each person can determine on their own what gender they should present as; nobody is saying that doctors or parents or whoever should look at people's interests and decide that they must be trans.

A lot of TERFs really enjoy accusing trans people of supporting gender stereotypes, but this is not something that many actual trans people do.

So your definition of 'man' (or 'woman') is "anyone who calls themselves a man (or woman)". Is that right?

If so I think there are obvious problems with such a definition.

Essentially, yes (I don't think people should call themselves the wrong gender in bad faith, but that is not something that happens often for a variety of reasons).

What problems are you referring to?

What's to stop a person with a penis calling themselves a woman to get around gender equality quotas? Or gain access to scholarships for women in STEM?

And then there are the philosophical problems around what exactly it means to 'identify' as anything...

That just isn't likely to be a big problem compared to the real problems facing trans women.

1) I don't think "that isn't likely to be a big problem" is good enough. We don't know that.

2) Is the only possible way to address the real problems facing trans women to say that anyone who calls themselves a woman is a woman?

1. There are a lot of workplaces and colleges that already accept trans women as women. Do we see hordes of cis men abusing that?

2. What do you propose? A test to prove you're a real trans person™?

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

What is "mental gender" anyway? Does every boy who like sparkly stuff be forced to take estrogen? He's mentally "a girl", right? Does every girl who cuts her hair short have to be on Testosterone? Good work, we have brought back gendered stereotypes.

No, each person can determine on their own what gender they should present as; nobody is saying that doctors or parents or whoever should look at people's interests and decide that they must be trans.

A lot of TERFs really enjoy accusing trans people of supporting gender stereotypes, but this is not something that many actual trans people do.

So your definition of 'man' (or 'woman') is "anyone who calls themselves a man (or woman)". Is that right?

If so I think there are obvious problems with such a definition.

Essentially, yes (I don't think people should call themselves the wrong gender in bad faith, but that is not something that happens often for a variety of reasons).

What problems are you referring to?

What's to stop a person with a penis calling themselves a woman to get around gender equality quotas? Or gain access to scholarships for women in STEM?

And then there are the philosophical problems around what exactly it means to 'identify' as anything...

That just isn't likely to be a big problem compared to the real problems facing trans women.

1) I don't think "that isn't likely to be a big problem" is good enough. We don't know that.

2) Is the only possible way to address the real problems facing trans women to say that anyone who calls themselves a woman is a woman?

1. There are a lot of workplaces and colleges that already accept trans women as women. Do we see hordes of cis men abusing that?

2. What do you propose? A test to prove you're a real trans person™?

It might come to that point once people become desperate.

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

There are already accounts of trans "women" demanding access to lesbian bodies and calling anyone refusing to sleep with/date them "transphobes. Look up Riley Dennis.

[Figueira]

There are already accounts of trans "women" demanding access to lesbian bodies and calling anyone refusing to sleep with/date them "transphobes. Look up Riley Dennis.

Ignoring the scare quotes, this attitude is indeed bad IMO, but it also isn't what we were talking about.

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

There are already accounts of trans "women" demanding access to lesbian bodies and calling anyone refusing to sleep with/date them "transphobes. Look up Riley Dennis.

Ignoring the scare quotes, this attitude is indeed bad IMO, but it also isn't what we were talking about.

I mean, we ensure that ethnic minorities have their dignity by preventing cultural appropriation. Why can't we protect women and their spaces?

[Figueira]

There are already accounts of trans "women" demanding access to lesbian bodies and calling anyone refusing to sleep with/date them "transphobes. Look up Riley Dennis.

Ignoring the scare quotes, this attitude is indeed bad IMO, but it also isn't what we were talking about.

I mean, we ensure that ethnic minorities have their dignity by preventing cultural appropriation. Why can't we protect women and their spaces?

We can. Trans women are women.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Even if it wasn't real?  So feelings are more important to you than reality?  For the record, while I'd call the person by whatever name they chose, I would not use some zie/zir/zimself pronoun.

Your entire argument is based on your unsubstantiated feeling that physical sex is the sole determinant of gender.

Why should it not be?  What use is the term "gender" if it is divorced from the term "sex."

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Identity is not sacred.  I care more about truth.  When someone invents a new gender, they have to prove that its real.

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Linguistics is irrelevant to reality. Words can change meaning, and the differentiation is useful.

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Oh my god are you really claiming that physical sex and mental gender are the same thing because "gender" and "sex" have roughly the same meaning to most people? Now, I'm using the definition of "sex = physical, gender = mental" here for conveniences sake,  so don't try using etymology to argue. Gender isn't about "biological function", it's about identity. Trans people aren't denying that they have the parts of their birth sex.

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For someone who's claiming your position is based on biological reality you sure are focused on linguistics and how cultures felt about gender.
[/quote]

Sex and gender are words that have existed for a long time.  The two words were used interchangeably until "sex" began to be associated with having sex.  The words have been synonyms for longer than anyone has been alive.  You claim that the words have different meanings, but I'm showing you that they do not.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

There are already accounts of trans "women" demanding access to lesbian bodies and calling anyone refusing to sleep with/date them "transphobes. Look up Riley Dennis.

Ignoring the scare quotes, this attitude is indeed bad IMO, but it also isn't what we were talking about.

I mean, we ensure that ethnic minorities have their dignity by preventing cultural appropriation. Why can't we protect women and their spaces?

We can. Trans women are women.

Well...

[Goldwater]

Dang, the transphobia is strong in this thread.

[Figueira]

Do all you "BIOLOGICAL FACT" crusaders correct parents who refer to their adopted children as their children?

[world.execute(me)]

Why should it not be?  What use is the term "gender" if it is divorced from the term "sex."

Are you really this dense? I'm not even sure how to argue against something this stupid/willfully ignorant. There is a mental thing involved in ones identity that is different than physical sex that is most easily labeled gender.

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For the most part, that's false. Of course someone who will never have their identity questioned or attacked wouldn't consider it important...

If you cared about the truth you wouldn't automatically assume they were invalid absent overwhelming proof to the contrary. If there's no evidence on either side, and assuming one side will attack the core of who someone is, one should do anything but assume said side.

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Because that idea objectively hurts people, and isn't even logical(not that you care about actual truth. But seriously, its a f**king absurd idea).

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This would be plainly obvious if you weren't being a disingenuous blockbrain.

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You're denying that enby people (and trans people in general)s existances are valid because of some unsubstantiated claim about the words sex and gender supposedly having meaning the exact same thing(and with zero difference in connotation or tone, apparently) before trans people decided a distinction between physical and mental gender needed different words for convenient communication. And AFAIK sex has always had a clinical, private partsy implication, while gender has more often been used to talk about the social aspects of it, not that it would matter if your linguistics claims were correct anyway.

According to oxford, "Gender" means

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So yeah. Stop playing the definition game.

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Words gain different meanings when people start using them in different ways, Mr Einstein. And it doesn't matter if you're as right as one can be when ascribing absolute meaning to words, that only makes talking about mental gender (I'm using the word """""""""""""""wrong""""""""""""""" because I like not writing an essay to describe something that can be said in a single word. If you read this like I'm saying gender as you (erroneously) define it, than just stop). 10000000000000000 times more of a pain. Why should peoples identities be vetoed by etymology?

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Are you really this dense? I'm not even sure how to argue against something this stupid/willfully ignorant. There is a mental thing involved in ones identity that is different than physical sex that is most easily labeled gender.

I, like most Americans, grew up with the words used interchangeably.  I know that you identify as a gender other than the one you were born as.  That doesn't make you that gender.

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I don't care if people are offended.  Racism wasn't wrong because people were offended by it, it was wrong because it was scientifically and morally wrong.

If "the core of who someone is" is a fantasy, then I shouldn't encourage them in that fantasy.  People who are inventing new genders have to prove that they are real.

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What hurts people is genital mutilation (aka gender reassignment surgery).  Many people go on to regret it.  I hope that it isn't too late for you.  Look up Walt Heyer, he went through what you are going through.

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The only difference in the meaning of gender and sex is that gender sometimes has a linguistic function and sex sometimes refers to coitus.

I don't consider anyone's existence invalid.  I believe you exist.  I believe that non-binary people are real people.  I just think that their identities are not incorrect.

Either gender is biological, as I am saying, or it is a stereotype.  It is either something that is inborn and immutable, or it is determined by someone's behavior (a biological male who acts like a woman is a woman).  Obviously trans people reject the first option.  But they also reject the second.  There has to be an objective definition of gender other than "I say that I'm (male/female)."

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In common speech they mean the same thing and you know that.

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Because not all identities are legitimate.

I know you think I hate you but I do not.  If I hated you I would encourage you down the path you are heading.  I am praying for you.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Walt Heyer is a very odd case. While most people who have GRS have gone through several years of checks with therapists and such, Heyer was someone who - by his own admission - was not dysphoric, but simply paid a surgeon to conduct GRS on him. Not a hugely recommended course of action. He names a handful of named cases, a good number of them being misrepresented (e.g. people who don't regret the experience at all).

Let's look at some actual studies:

Factors Associated with Satisfaction or Regret Following Male-to-Female Sex Reassignment Surgery (Lawrence, 2003) - out of 232 transwomen, zero were consistently reegretful and six percent were "sometimes" regretful. Of these six percent, over half were as a result of inadequate surgical outcomes or lack of family acceptance.

Long-term follow-up: psychosocial outcome of Belgian transsexuals after sex reassignment surgery (Cuypere 2006) -  out of 62, one woman occasionally regrets; same with Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women (Weyers 2008), in which only two occasionally regret.

Care of the Patient Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery (2006):

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Sex reassignment: outcomes and predictors of treatment for adolescent and adult transsexuals - regret rate of <1%

An analysis of all applications for sex reassignment surgery in Sweden, 1960-2010: prevalence, incidence, and regrets. - regret rate of 2.2%

Almost all studies conclude - quite mildly - that the existence of regreters should not be ignored, ad there are certain risky people that should be targeted for additional care, but that the treatment in general helps quality of life, for the most part.

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And you're close to getting it right. Your cynicism over the most scientifically accepted treatment for Gender Dysphoria isn't necessarily wrong because it is offensive, it is wrong because it is scientifically wrong. And morally wrong too, if it ends up people being dissuaded from potentially life-saving treatment due to your cynicism.

[world.execute(me)]

Are you really this dense? I'm not even sure how to argue against something this stupid/willfully ignorant. There is a mental thing involved in ones identity that is different than physical sex that is most easily labeled gender.

I, like most Americans, grew up with the words used interchangeably.  I know that you identify as a gender other than the one you were born as.  That doesn't make you that gender.

And that is irrelevant to the identity of trans people. You don't get to invalidate us because we use a word differently.

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Racism was wrong because it hurt people and attacked the core of their humanity.

And let me guess, people with depression or anxiety have to "prove" they're not just making it all up? You have literally zero evidence that its a fantasy. Do you have any idea how hard it is to "prove" ones identity? You need millions in grant money, a team of researchers, and decades of time. Until or unless that happens, the only inkling of evidence we have is that the one person who actually sees their own heart and soul feels the way they do.

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As Crabcake said, less than 1% of people regret it. Seriously, f**k you. You don't give a damn about me; you're just doing this for your own BS prejudices.

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I'ma just say this again.

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F**king Oxford disagrees.

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Denying someone is who they say they are because they can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt is invalidating them.

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False Dichotomy based on your own feelings about other people with zero evidence or factors making it seem more likely.

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Not really. "Sex" always has a more clinical, biological tone, and gender is more used for cultural aspects. I think I'll take Oxford over the word of someone living in a regressive hellhole bubble.

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And why do you get to decide who is and isn't valid. You clearly don't respect me, or you might consider deprioritizing your transphobia. And seriously, go f**k yourself with your patronizing BS.





Also, learn to format.