Was 9/11 an inside job?

[fezzyfestoon]

That would be funny if it wasn't incredibly retarded.

[opebo]

It isn't important whether it was or it wasn't.  However it is rather strange that tea-partiers believe something like that, given that Bush was their president.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

No. Even if I think he would have done it if he'd ever had the capacity to think of it, George Bush was just too much of a dumb bastard to ever mastermind something that massive.

George Bush would not have had to have personally masterminded the logistics of such an operation, anymore so than he personally ordered the particular battle tactics being used on the ground in Iraq.

That doesn't mean he's absolved of responsibility for things that went on under his authority.

Maybe it's because the aliens who hybridized humans have influence over human governments? Wouldn't David Icke agree?

I'm not sure how that addresses my post, sorry. 9/11 Liars sure have a strange way of debating.

So, why don't you provide some evidence for your hypothesis? Or do you still remember being destroyed on this topic the last time you debated it?

Oh? Go ahead and dig up the old thread, Gus, let's see who it was who refused to ever debate the facts.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The 9/11 truth conspiracy is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Bush wasn't THAT evil, was he?

The 9/11 lie conspiracy sold by the Bush administration is quite a bit stupider, I assure you.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Zomzg, NWO!

Here's a proof 9/11 was an inside job!



No one can argue with this!
 

[patrick1]

You are. Be sure of it.

You should at least remember Bin Ladin's gloating video message a few weeks after... with its whole "we succeeded beyond our wildest expectations at punishing the dirty dogs" angle.

Oh, and just a few irrelevant sidenotes:

It was thought about.

Who by? Certainly not the statics expert I remember on German tv explaining, a few hours after, that it wasn't really all that surprising as everybody else was still thinking, and that he should have. And certainly nobody high up the chain of command of the NYC Fire Department.
(Oh, and yeah, anyone thinking of destroying the building would have been thinking to topple it - destroying more buildings in its path, as talked of in Fight Club for instance - rather than make it crumble. It was really rather unthinkable to the layman. But even dreaming of that as a best outcome - which of course Atta etc may well have done; we wouldn't know - is very, very different from planning.)

The crashing of a plane into a high value building was game planned by a few Fed agencies and emergency managers prior to 9/11.  There was precedent for the attack because Algerian militants were going to crash a plane into the Eiffel Tower back in 94.  Rick Rescorla (R.I.P.) also warned against the use of a plane in an attack against WTC.  I have a few professors who knew him and discussed these type scenarios-  One of them was higher up at NYC OEM at the time.  He'll probably be able to point me in the direction of the particulars.

[SPC]

If the security guard was sleeping on the job when 19 killers walk past him and kill 3,000 people, doesn't the security guard bear some responsibility for the tragedy?

[dead0man]

So you're blaming airport security in Boston then?

[??????????]

So you're blaming airport security in Boston then?

Security was extremely lax before 9/11. I carried on things which were verboten on flights even back then. Knifes and the lot.

[Badger]

No. Even if I think he would have done it if he'd ever had the capacity to think of it, George Bush was just too much of a dumb bastard to ever mastermind something that massive.

George Bush would not have had to have personally masterminded the logistics of such an operation, anymore so than he personally ordered the particular battle tactics being used on the ground in Iraq.

That doesn't mean he's absolved of responsibility for things that went on under his authority.

Maybe it's because the aliens who hybridized humans have influence over human governments? Wouldn't David Icke agree?

Awesomest post of the day.

[patrick1]

So you're blaming airport security in Boston then?

Security was extremely lax before 9/11. I carried on things which were verboten on flights even back then. Knifes and the lot.

Utility knives were allowed prior to 9/11 as long as the blade was 4 inches or less. The hijackers were actually abiding by the law.

[anvi]

I recently discovered to my horror that one of my brothers is a 9-11 truther.  I spent a lot of time talking to him about the process of preparing a controlled demolition of a building and how buildings collapse under such a process as opposed to how the twin towers collapsed.  I also spent a lot of time showing him photos and testimony of plane wreckage at the Pentagon, to refute the theory that the building had been hit by a missile.  The evidence I gave him had utterly no effect.  Trying to talk to him made me appalled that we in this country can't even agree on relatively easily accessible facts anymore.

Al Qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9/11/01.  The U.S. government had no bigger role in this specific attack than underestimating lots of cues that something like it would happen, and not keeping a close enough watch on who was in the country.  That's what the facts establish.  And that's already bad enough.  No conspiracy theories necessary or true.

[minionofmidas]

Utility knives were allowed prior to 9/11 as long as the blade was 4 inches or less. The hijackers were actually abiding by the law.

So why, exactly, does America demonize them so if they did nothing illegal?

[Gustaf]

No. Even if I think he would have done it if he'd ever had the capacity to think of it, George Bush was just too much of a dumb bastard to ever mastermind something that massive.

George Bush would not have had to have personally masterminded the logistics of such an operation, anymore so than he personally ordered the particular battle tactics being used on the ground in Iraq.

That doesn't mean he's absolved of responsibility for things that went on under his authority.

Maybe it's because the aliens who hybridized humans have influence over human governments? Wouldn't David Icke agree?

I'm not sure how that addresses my post, sorry. 9/11 Liars sure have a strange way of debating.

So, why don't you provide some evidence for your hypothesis? Or do you still remember being destroyed on this topic the last time you debated it?

Oh? Go ahead and dig up the old thread, Gus, let's see who it was who refused to ever debate the facts.

I guess that means "no" and "yes" in that order.

[Gustaf]

For the record, here is Libertas debate piece providing evidence for the facts of the matter:

Libertas, I'm curious, how come none of the millions upon millions of the engineers educated all over the world, many in countries that are hostile to the US and many with anti-American personal political convictions have pointed out the impossibility of this happening?

Plenty of engineers have dismissed the official government conspiracy theory as bunkum. Not that appeal to authority is a legitimate argument to begin with.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Because that would be ridiculous. Muslims would not have had inside access to the WTC to plant the necessary explosives.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Um, no the specifics of the WTC collapse are very much relevant to this discussion.

He doesn't of course actually mention any engineers. Even if there were plenty he doesn't really explain why this isn't accepted as universal fact. I know many engineers personally. My brother is an engineer. Why wouldn't any of the engineers I know tell me that this is impossible if it really is?

Again, this isn't rocket science. Construction engineering isn't a field containing 5 people who can be bribed or threatened or anything. There are lots and lots.

On the more important point, Libertas has also had this to say:

The airplanes that crashed into the World Trade Center were real. That doesn't conflict with the controlled demolition theory.

Yes...but why? Why fly the airplanes into the buildings at all if you're doing controlled demolition anyway? I don't see what the point would be in adding unnecessary risk of getting caught.

Because that's what the whole terror attack was about. The idea of commercial airliners that we've all been on being hijacked so easily with box-cutters and then crashed into iconic American steel skyscrapers had a psychological effect on people. It unnerved them.

Plus it also seemed plausible to the average American who wasn't going to delve deeply to ever question what the government said.

If the buildings just started collapsing out of nowhere, it would have looked pretty darn suspicious. Islamic extremists being able to set up a controlled demolition of the twin 110-story towers of the World Trade Center would have stretched believability too far even for the average unthinking American.

I still don't see why muslims being able to set up controlled demolition would have stretched the imagination more than something which is, according to Libertas, physically impossible and something that millions of people around the world would easily spot as physically impossible.

Anyway, Libertas, don't you think there was any physically possible way that Muslim terrorists could have destroyed WTC? If there is one, then why wouldn't the government have done it that way if they wanted to frame Muslim terrorists?

[minionofmidas]

Everybody studying architecture in Germany does a basic statics course. Even those who specialize in landscape architecture, ie parks and such.

The idea of commercial airliners that we've all been on being hijacked so easily with box-cutters and then crashed into iconic American steel skyscrapers had a psychological effect on people. It unnerved them.

This is the crux of the matter, of course. (This and the quick way in which the far right wing of the establishment seized its chance.) This is the reason both why so many people went into such a rabid allbelieving mode and why it was inevitable that "Truthers" would emerge.
And alas, having to dissociate from Truthers didn't exactly help the remaining rational people's cause at all. Not that anybody planned it to play out that way, of course. Its just human nature.
*goes vomit at memory of last nine years*

[??????????]

I recently discovered to my horror that one of my brothers is a 9-11 truther.  I spent a lot of time talking to him about the process of preparing a controlled demolition of a building and how buildings collapse under such a process as opposed to how the twin towers collapsed.  I also spent a lot of time showing him photos and testimony of plane wreckage at the Pentagon, to refute the theory that the building had been hit by a missile.  The evidence I gave him had utterly no effect.  Trying to talk to him made me appalled that we in this country can't even agree on relatively easily accessible facts anymore.

Al Qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9/11/01.  The U.S. government had no bigger role in this specific attack than underestimating lots of cues that something like it would happen, and not keeping a close enough watch on who was in the country.  That's what the facts establish.  And that's already bad enough.  No conspiracy theories necessary or true.

I've run into the same thing debating these so called "truthers". They laughed at me when I pointed to a Popular Mechanics article which basically took every truther question and obliterated it. They basically tell me that I am "brainwashed" by the government, etc. lol Instead of debating these losers it's really just best to make fun of them really.

[minionofmidas]

*shrugs* They've made up their mind. Do not confuse them with facts.

[fezzyfestoon]

I recently discovered to my horror that one of my brothers is a 9-11 truther.  I spent a lot of time talking to him about the process of preparing a controlled demolition of a building and how buildings collapse under such a process as opposed to how the twin towers collapsed.  I also spent a lot of time showing him photos and testimony of plane wreckage at the Pentagon, to refute the theory that the building had been hit by a missile.  The evidence I gave him had utterly no effect.  Trying to talk to him made me appalled that we in this country can't even agree on relatively easily accessible facts anymore.

Al Qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9/11/01.  The U.S. government had no bigger role in this specific attack than underestimating lots of cues that something like it would happen, and not keeping a close enough watch on who was in the country.  That's what the facts establish.  And that's already bad enough.  No conspiracy theories necessary or true.

It's the same crap with Holocaust deniers.  They believe what they believe because of some underlying prejudice or preconceived hatred.  When you show Holocaust deniers the unlimited truths of the disaster, they make excuses for why the proof is flawed and point to tiny inconsistencies from one or two people.

[SPC]

So you're blaming airport security in Boston then?

No, I'm blaming the government that disarmed pilots and allowed the attackers to get in on expired student visas. If you're going to have an INS, it should at least do a decent job rather than create a false sense of security. Not to mention the anger that bombing Iraq throughout the 90s incited among Muslims.

Anyway, whether or not the government directly did it is begging the question IMO. They still deserve the blame for their incompetence.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I recently discovered to my horror that one of my brothers is a 9-11 truther.  I spent a lot of time talking to him about the process of preparing a controlled demolition of a building and how buildings collapse under such a process as opposed to how the twin towers collapsed.  I also spent a lot of time showing him photos and testimony of plane wreckage at the Pentagon, to refute the theory that the building had been hit by a missile.  The evidence I gave him had utterly no effect.  Trying to talk to him made me appalled that we in this country can't even agree on relatively easily accessible facts anymore.

Al Qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9/11/01.  The U.S. government had no bigger role in this specific attack than underestimating lots of cues that something like it would happen, and not keeping a close enough watch on who was in the country.  That's what the facts establish.  And that's already bad enough.  No conspiracy theories necessary or true.

I've run into the same thing debating these so called "truthers". They laughed at me when I pointed to a Popular Mechanics article which basically took every truther question and obliterated it. They basically tell me that I am "brainwashed" by the government, etc. lol Instead of debating these losers it's really just best to make fun of them really.

Libertas is clearly proving that in this thread.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Do truthers believe that security should go back to pre-911 days?

[opebo]

Do truthers believe that security should go back to pre-911 days?

I think it is clearly better to run a tiny risk of being blown up than put up with the security.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Do truthers believe that security should go back to pre-911 days?

I think it is clearly better to run a tiny risk of being blown up than put up with the security.

Amen!

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Of course it wasn't.  It's pathetic that anyone could be so stupid and/or naive as to believe this.  Never mind that terrorists like KSM and Osama have admitted to orchestrating the attacks, and of course all the other evidence - it's just absurd to believe that the American government would do something like this.