HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE

[afleitch]

Your pastor, as with the person in the video posted is most likely to have been under a misaprehension, whether his vision had an 'application' or not. While I am very sure that what he had a vision of felt 'real' to him, it was more than likely non supernatural and a product of his own psyche attributed to the area of the supernatural he had an interest in (his religion)

On balance, that is more likely to have occured than an intervention in or suspension of the natural order entirely in his favour.

of course, because God is too big to take an interest in us humans...far be it for God to stoop so low as to help the very entities he created....right?

you have always denied the power of God because you don't want to be changed by God's power, rather you rather be left alone.

If there is a God yes it could take an interest in human affairs. Absolutely. It doesn't mean that it's going to suspend the laws of nature to give your pastor a nightmarish vision. Drugs can do that. When i was sick with the flu I though the ceiling was making fun of me

There is nothing to suggest that any thoughts we have or any voices we hear are anything but our own. No divine intervention, no telekinesis or any other such nonsense. We may hear voices, we may have different personalities inside our head but that's exactly what they are and exactly where they have come from.

So based on that understanding, your pastor is more than likely to be under a misaprehension over what he has experienced.

[Joe Republic]

The likeliest explanations, of course, are either that jamfest's pastor has a very vivid imagination, or he's a liar.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The likeliest explanations, of course, are either that jamfest's pastor has a very vivid imagination, or he's a liar.

these innuendos get old

you don't make up a story like that about your own brother.  he called his brother afterward but didn't tell him about the vision.  instead he just said he had been praying about him and wanted to make sure everything was ok between him and God.  and his brother is still alive.

you won't find him talking about it during one of the archived sermons on our web site because each sermon is edited from originally 60 minutes down to 40 minutes and sensitive segments such as this are removed

he revealed the vision to the church when he was preaching a sermon about making sure your family members are saved.  that's the application, and the application was the purpose in telling about it.  It had nothing to do with lifting himself up, else stuff like that wouldn't be edited out.  

[Joe Republic]

Well yes, artistic license is rather a necessary requirement for painting pretty pictures for people.

The problem, of course, is that too many people take them literally...

[Dr. Cynic]

these innuendos get old

you don't make up a story like that about your own brother.

Sure you do. I make up stories about my brothers for my job (it being a bit different), but it's not outside the realm of possibility that your pastor would do the same if it got his point across.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Here's the easiest way

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

these innuendos get old

you don't make up a story like that about your own brother.

Sure you do. I make up stories about my brothers for my job (it being a bit different), but it's not outside the realm of possibility that your pastor would do the same if it got his point across.

another innuendo. if there is one thing my pastor doesn't lack, it is stories.  He doesn't need to make any up, he's been preaching the gospel for 40 years.  He even taught the gospel next to the Ho Chi Minh trail in Chu Chi Vietnam.  Out of his whole boot camp of over 300 GI’s, my pastor was 1 of only 3 who went to Vietnam.  Two of the 3 volunteered to go; the other one, my pastor, was ordered to Vietnam because boot camp CO wanted him dead because he dared to hold onto his Christian faith.  And to make sure he was killed, my pastor was ordered to Chu Chi Vietnam as part of the 25th I.D.  My pastor prayed hard and believed God was going to reverse his orders.  But he was sent to the most dangerous place in Vietnam and his base camp was hit with incoming every single night.  It was there he soon became disgusted with the chaplain who filled his sermons with cursing in order to convince the boys they could live like they pleased in Vietnam and still be “Christian”, and it was this chaplain who brought hookers into the base camp for the GIs.  

My pastor was so disgusted that he asked if he could put together and lead a one hour prayer service one night a week and the chaplain refused his request because the chaplain was insulted that someone else dare attempt to step on his toes.   My pastor took it all the way up to the I.G. of the 25th ID who just happened not to like the chaplain; and with my pastor in tow, the I.G. burst into the tent of the chaplain and told the secretary not to bother to get up, flung open the chaplain’s office door and ordered him to allow my pastor to hold a one hour prayer service on Thursday night in a dirt floor tent.

It was in that tent where my pastor had his first taste of an inter-denomination service. He witneseds boys of many Christian sects pouring out their hearts to God and receiving the Holy Spirit.  Those 13 months in Vietnam would forever change my pastor’s views regarding sectarian Christianity and would lead him to start inter-denominational churches.

So my pastor doesn’t need to make up stories.  For God’s guiding hand weaves a story that no human could dream up.

[Dr. Cynic]

Well, in my line of work, it's customary to stretch the truth for humor.

So, of course they're stories. My grandfather, a minister, told me many of them. My uncle, a Vietnam veteran told me his stories about that war.

But my grandfather also taught me a lot about public speaking. You need to keep the audiences attention, so you jazz it up with whatever you can to get the point across. Even if he had the vision, how do you know he hadn't been using LSD at the time? I had plenty of visions the few times I used it.

See, the brilliant thing about telling a story is you can add an subtract anything you desire from it. It's the child of folly to take things literally.

[Joe Republic]

My pastor was so disgusted that he asked if he could put together and lead a one hour prayer service one night a week and the chaplain refused his request because the chaplain was insulted that someone else dare attempt to step on his toes.   My pastor took it all the way up to the I.G. of the 25th ID who just happened not to like the chaplain; and with my pastor in tow, the I.G. burst into the tent of the chaplain and told the secretary not to bother to get up, flung open the chaplain’s office door and ordered him to allow my pastor to hold a one hour prayer service on Thursday night in a dirt floor tent.

Exchange Vietnam for WWII Italy, and that scene could have been lifted directly from Catch-22.

[John Dibble]

The likeliest explanations, of course, are either that jamfest's pastor has a very vivid imagination, or he's a liar.

these innuendos get old

Sure you do. I make up stories about my brothers for my job (it being a bit different), but it's not outside the realm of possibility that your pastor would do the same if it got his point across.

another innuendo.

[vocabulary Nazi]

Now I'm not about to get into a long, drawn out argument over the content of what's being argued now, however... do you even know what an innuendo is? Seems to me they are being rather direct with what they are saying, so these aren't innuendos. I mean yeah, they're saying "maybe", but there's nothing indirect or subtle about it. If you want to call it an insult, fine, but there doesn't appear to be any innuendos here.

Alternatively...

[/vocabulary Nazi]

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You’ll have to describe the scene in Catch-22.   But, just FYI, when my pastor went to the IG with the complaint, the IG insisted he produce some credentials showing he was fit to lead a prayer service.  So my pastor wrote back stateside to family and church asking for some form of accreditation.  What came back in the mail was a generic paper certificate from his pastor stating that he was “Licensed Christian Worker” .  My pastor was embarrassed by the certificate, but when he presented it, the IG burst out laughing and exclaimed, “This is PERFECT!”  And the IG took that cracker-jack box looking certificate and slammed it on the chaplain’s desk and shot down the chaplain’s complaint with a certificate that looked like a joke.

One of my pastor duties was disturbing pay to the high ranking officers and handling their other business affairs.  (He also pulled guard duty, but didn’t engage in open field combat because he was a basically a conscientious objector due to the pressure of his church.)  So he had access to the IG. 

I have heard my pastor recite that story in front of visiting family members and army buddies who were either eyewitnesses to the request for credentials he sent stateside or to the actual prayer services in Vietnam.  And on our church web page, he even mentions it:
http://www.graceistheplace.com/2006/pastor.htm]

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…by charging my pastor with lying, you’re basically claiming a conspiracy, which only further demonstrates your lack of character

[Joe Republic]

You’ll have to describe the scene in Catch-22.

Nah, you'll just have to read it.  You won't regret it.

[afleitch]

…by charging my pastor with lying, you’re basically claiming a conspiracy, which only further demonstrates your lack of character

By not even contemplating that your pastor may have embellished his story a little bit for dramatic effect (which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing) or having a good story to tell you are demonstrating your own naivety.

The matter over whether or not your pastor experienced something supernatural is another issue altogether. On the balance of proabilities his vision of hell was more than likely a product of his own imagination or a projection of his own psyche. It does not mean he is liar, but it does mean he is likely to have been under a missaprehension of which, at times, we can all be capable of.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The likeliest explanations, of course, are either that jamfest's pastor has a very vivid imagination, or he's a liar.

these innuendos get old

Sure you do. I make up stories about my brothers for my job (it being a bit different), but it's not outside the realm of possibility that your pastor would do the same if it got his point across.

another innuendo.

[vocabulary Nazi]

Now I'm not about to get into a long, drawn out argument over the content of what's being argued now, however... do you even know what an innuendo is? Seems to me they are being rather direct with what they are saying, so these aren't innuendos. I mean yeah, they're saying "maybe", but there's nothing indirect or subtle about it. If you want to call it an insult, fine, but there doesn't appear to be any innuendos here.

Alternatively...

[/vocabulary Nazi]

Though you do have a valid point, I have to conclude the attacks are INDIRECT, otherwise they would be DIRECT personal attacks…and we know that is not allowed on this forum.  For if I have incurred censor and infraction points for conjecturing a male JetBlue employee pitched a prissy effeminate tirade based on my observation of three undeniable facts:  1) he is an effeminate homosexual, 2) he went into a tirade while having a catfight with a woman, 3) he choose to be arrested while in a homosexual embrace….then certainly no one would be allowed to make DIRECT personal attacks upon me or my pastor without a shred of proof! 

For certainly there forum does not allow fundamentalist Christians and their pastors to be attacked without cause while disallowing charges against homosexuals even though the factual evidence allows one to connect the dots.

So please, sit down and stop insisting we go by the book.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

…by charging my pastor with lying, you’re basically claiming a conspiracy, which only further demonstrates your lack of character

By not even contemplating that your pastor may have embellished his story a little bit for dramatic effect (which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing) or having a good story to tell you are demonstrating your own naivety.

So, on one hand you claim I am naïve for giving the benefit of the doubt to a perfectly reasonable story that was has not been  refuted even though it has been repeated many times in front of eyewitnesses both stateside and in Vietnam…and on the other hand you take the side of someone who without any discovery process has accused my pastor and all the eyewitnesses of lying over a story about how he was allowed to set up an interdenominational prayer service on his base.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Joe Republic]

The fact that you gave the "benefit of the doubt" shows that part of you doesn't 100% believe it either.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You’ll have to describe the scene in Catch-22.

Nah, you'll just have to read it.  You won't regret it.

In other words, the only connection is that both stories involve chaplains on a base.  I’m sure you’d see plagiarism in any two randomly chosen stories involving going to the latrine.

---

The fact that you gave the "benefit of the doubt" shows that part of you doesn't 100% believe it either.

so, I recite a story from my pastor and many eyewitnesses, then you doubt the story and claim he and the witnesses are lying (though you have no evidence to make such a charge), then I say give him the benefit of the doubt, then you claim that only show I don’t believe the story either, as if I was corrupted by your ignorance?!

Dude, your ideas are too stupid to corrupt me.

[Joe Republic]

You’ll have to describe the scene in Catch-22.

Nah, you'll just have to read it.  You won't regret it.

In other words, the only connection is that both stories involve chaplains on a base.  I’m sure you’d see plagiarism in any two randomly chosen stories involving going to the latrine.

Nope, just a recommendation to read a truly excellent novel.

Be careful though, this one is also fiction, and we all know about your habit of taking such things literally...

The fact that you gave the "benefit of the doubt" shows that part of you doesn't 100% believe it either.

so, I recite a story from my pastor and many eyewitnesses, then you doubt the story and claim he and the witnesses are lying (though you have no evidence to make such a charge), then I say give him the benefit of the doubt, then you claim that only show I don’t believe the story either, as if I was corrupted by your ignorance?!

You're the one who said you gave him the benefit of the doubt.  The bulk of the story is probably true - it's not really important how much - but what we're saying is that an unknown quantity of it was likely altered/exaggerated in order to fit his own narrative.  Come on, we all do it when reciting anecdotes to make a better story, or a point.

[minionofmidas]

I like how everybody completely missed the point of Xahar's point, which was simply Islamic orthodox teaching.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You’ll have to describe the scene in Catch-22.

Nah, you'll just have to read it.  You won't regret it.

In other words, the only connection is that both stories involve chaplains on a base.  I’m sure you’d see plagiarism in any two randomly chosen stories involving going to the latrine.

Nope, just a recommendation to read a truly excellent novel.

Be careful though, this one is also fiction, and we all know about your habit of taking such things literally...

The fact that you gave the "benefit of the doubt" shows that part of you doesn't 100% believe it either.

so, I recite a story from my pastor and many eyewitnesses, then you doubt the story and claim he and the witnesses are lying (though you have no evidence to make such a charge), then I say give him the benefit of the doubt, then you claim that only show I don’t believe the story either, as if I was corrupted by your ignorance?!

You're the one who said you gave him the benefit of the doubt.  The bulk of the story is probably true - it's not really important how much - but what we're saying is that an unknown quantity of it was likely altered/exaggerated in order to fit his own narrative.  Come on, we all do it when reciting anecdotes to make a better story, or a point.

For a moment, let’s go by the book and define what is going on here:

If me or my pastor were bubbling idiots whose legitimacy was discredit by our own words (e.g. someone who distorts scripture or is a complete joke like Derek), then there would be no need to slander our credibility at all.

But since me and my pastor are Christians who have testimonies and do not deny the word, we cannot be allowed any credibility at all in anything we say.  For if we are allowed credibility, then the bible becomes credible.  And if the word of God becomes credible, then so does God’s judgment.

And since unbelievers can’t allow God’s judgment to have any credibility, his witnesses cannot be allowed to have credibility, even when it comes to every day stories like how my pastor had to battle his Vietnam chaplain in order to hold an independent prayer service.  And it doesn’t matter how many eyewitnesses there are, they must be discredited and made to look dishonorable also, even though there is not a shred of proof and regardless of the fact it smears a group of men who served their country with honor in the most dangerous part of Vietnam.

Muddy the waters, discredit, repeat.  And the same pattern is repeated from one thread to another.  As a matter of fact, the same pattern has been repeated throughout history, for it is the original deception presented to Eve.

[Joe Republic]

If it helps you to think of it that way, sure, although you still seem to be missing the wider point.  As usual.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If it helps you to think of it that way, sure, although you still seem to be missing the wider point.  As usual.

then what is the wider point?  if your slanders are not based on intent to deny credibility, then name the exact detail(s) of my pastor's story regarding the events surrounding the formation of the prayer service that you find so unbelievable that you would smear the honesty of veterans.

[Joe Republic]

Again, that's not the point at all.  I even told you that the quantity of the story that is true is unimportant.  Remember what I said about altering/exaggerating details in order to make a better story or point?

At least the basis of your pastor's story is true, unlike your... um... episode, back in 1992 or whenever it was.  Well, I'm sure something happened to you back then, but it sure as hell wasn't what you now describe it as being. 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Again, that's not the point at all.  I even told you that the quantity of the story that is true is unimportant.  Remember what I said about altering/exaggerating details in order to make a better story or point?

At least the basis of your pastor's story is true, unlike your... um... episode, back in 1992 or whenever it was.  Well, I'm sure something happened to you back then, but it sure as hell wasn't what you now describe it as being. 

BINGO!

You equate his story of battling a Vietnam chaplain to my story of conversion, even though his story doesn’t name God as an actor yet my story does name God as an actor.  Both of them are equal threats to you, because even though God is not mentioned as acting against the chaplain, God’s fingerprints are all over my pastor’s story, therefore you must discredited it, even though you can’t name a single detail which is unbelievable.

[Joe Republic]

You should probably have gleaned by now that I couldn't honestly give two sh**ts about your pastor.  You should feel grateful that I'm even giving you the time of day.