Transgender woman charged with indecent exposure over Ohio YMCA incident

[DaleCooper]

For god sake have none of you heard of gyms. Not everyone wears underwear all the time at them and things can occasionally slip out. If you’re in a changing room where people are fully undressing you’re going to see genitals.

We can build a better world where private stalls are available in all gyms so this isn't an issue, trans or not. Lots of people of all orientations and identities just don't want to see other people's junk or have theirs seen by others.

This is a red herring. There have been awkward nerds scared of showing their junk in the locker room for generations. These women are not upset that they saw a naked person, they're upset that a dick was in their locker room while they were trying to change. It's frankly disrespectful to conflate that with the dork who refused to shower after gym class.

Do you not see any inconsistency in your angry and adamant defense of women who don't want to see unsolicited penes, but an equally angry adamant tone against men who feel the same way?

Like wherever you grew up had group showers at school and that's what you're used to, but that certainly wasn't the case where I grew up, and it's totally valid that some people prefer a different level of modesty than others. I'm not even saying that opening changing rooms should be banned, just that the option of stalls should be there. The fact that this solutoon can solve the issue from the OP without resorting to transphobia or exclusion is a happy bonus.

No, I don't see any inconsistency because these issues are not even remotely close to the same. The kid from Freaks & Geeks being afraid to let his peers see his ass in the shower is not even in the same ballpark as women entering a women's locker room, undressing, and then turning around to see a naked male standing in front of them. It's outrageous to pretend that these issues are similar.

Stalls won't even be relevant or helpful here because they would still need to be in a separate unisex area so that the women in the locker room wouldn't have to worry about it. Again, it's not just the nudity, it's the presence of people who look indistinguishable from men being in the locker room with women who are there specifically for privacy. And that's almost certainly going to be transphobic by the definition of most people here.

That's why I am being rude and dismissive of your locker room stall commentary. If you just said in an apolitical thread for random musings that you hate locker rooms, I wouldn't think twice about it, but you're coming into a thread about indecent exposure and trying to compare it to weird changing room anxiety. It's a completely unrelated distraction that has absolutely nothing to do with this whole incident.

You seem to still be missing the key context here. What you are used to from your life is weird to me, and apparently what I've experienced my whole life is weird to you. I don't "hate locker rooms," I've just never been in one where men are getting totally naked in the open. Certainly not in a school setting ever, or at a gym as an adult either.

Maybe it's a South vs. Midwest thing, or something more granular, I don't know. If not for this forum, I probably never would have known how many people don't see anything strange about not having private changing areas.

It's very odd how defensive some people get about this topic. People have different experiences and preferences. Why the anger?

I'm not offended or defensive about your personal history with locker rooms. I am frustrated by the fact that you keep bringing up a silly pet issue that frankly isn't important and conflating it with an issue that women have every reason to be upset about.

It'd be like if there was a thread about people who couldn't afford their diabetes medicine and I went in and started complaining about how Walmart raised the prices of generic brand Benadryl. It's ridiculous and unrelated. You might as well be talking about emo concerts at that point for all the relevance that it has to the real issue.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

I think the serious risk of sexual harassment and violence to trans women if we use the men's changing rooms is more important than cis women not having to see trans women changing and minding their own business, but what do I know.

Wait, so are we allowed to insinuate that certain groups of people are more likely to commit sexual assault now? Just trying to keep up.

Have you ever read any crime statistics ever

Why, yes I have.

A. That's a terf site. B. Even if those statistics are true they don't say anywhere near as much as you think they do.

"Lol"

I see you're triggered.

[ingemann]

At some point I must admit I began to wonder how the woman in question looked, I must admit my own inner picture of the person have never been very flattering (I imagine them as some big masculine looking person) and maybe I would see this person differently if it was some small feminine looking person. We should always try to look past our own preconceived opinion. So, I decided to look her up, well I was wrong through in a different manner, and it did not change my views in the end.

The first of the two pictures is a older one, I couldn't find a date for the second one.


 

[7,052,770]

For god sake have none of you heard of gyms. Not everyone wears underwear all the time at them and things can occasionally slip out. If you’re in a changing room where people are fully undressing you’re going to see genitals.

We can build a better world where private stalls are available in all gyms so this isn't an issue, trans or not. Lots of people of all orientations and identities just don't want to see other people's junk or have theirs seen by others.

This is a red herring. There have been awkward nerds scared of showing their junk in the locker room for generations. These women are not upset that they saw a naked person, they're upset that a dick was in their locker room while they were trying to change. It's frankly disrespectful to conflate that with the dork who refused to shower after gym class.

Do you not see any inconsistency in your angry and adamant defense of women who don't want to see unsolicited penes, but an equally angry adamant tone against men who feel the same way?

Like wherever you grew up had group showers at school and that's what you're used to, but that certainly wasn't the case where I grew up, and it's totally valid that some people prefer a different level of modesty than others. I'm not even saying that opening changing rooms should be banned, just that the option of stalls should be there. The fact that this solutoon can solve the issue from the OP without resorting to transphobia or exclusion is a happy bonus.

No, I don't see any inconsistency because these issues are not even remotely close to the same. The kid from Freaks & Geeks being afraid to let his peers see his ass in the shower is not even in the same ballpark as women entering a women's locker room, undressing, and then turning around to see a naked male standing in front of them. It's outrageous to pretend that these issues are similar.

Stalls won't even be relevant or helpful here because they would still need to be in a separate unisex area so that the women in the locker room wouldn't have to worry about it. Again, it's not just the nudity, it's the presence of people who look indistinguishable from men being in the locker room with women who are there specifically for privacy. And that's almost certainly going to be transphobic by the definition of most people here.

That's why I am being rude and dismissive of your locker room stall commentary. If you just said in an apolitical thread for random musings that you hate locker rooms, I wouldn't think twice about it, but you're coming into a thread about indecent exposure and trying to compare it to weird changing room anxiety. It's a completely unrelated distraction that has absolutely nothing to do with this whole incident.

You seem to still be missing the key context here. What you are used to from your life is weird to me, and apparently what I've experienced my whole life is weird to you. I don't "hate locker rooms," I've just never been in one where men are getting totally naked in the open. Certainly not in a school setting ever, or at a gym as an adult either.

Maybe it's a South vs. Midwest thing, or something more granular, I don't know. If not for this forum, I probably never would have known how many people don't see anything strange about not having private changing areas.

It's very odd how defensive some people get about this topic. People have different experiences and preferences. Why the anger?

I'm not offended or defensive about your personal history with locker rooms. I am frustrated by the fact that you keep bringing up a silly pet issue that frankly isn't important and conflating it with an issue that women have every reason to be upset about.

It'd be like if there was a thread about people who couldn't afford their diabetes medicine and I went in and started complaining about how Walmart raised the prices of generic brand Benadryl. It's ridiculous and unrelated. You might as well be talking about emo concerts at that point for all the relevance that it has to the real issue.

How in the world is this a "pet issue" when I've only mentioned it a couple of times, and only in threads about locker rooms? If it weren't for those couple of threads, I wouldn't even know that some people vehemently disagree with me...

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

4. If a cisgender man were to disguise himself as a transgender woman (unlikely as that may be), there are methods to find someone acting in bad faith and the law can deal with them accordingly.

Why would this be unlikely?   If one goes by self-ID and trusting people are whatever they say
are, there is no method to find someone acting in bad faith.

The vast majority of cisgender men aren’t sexual predators. Not to mention that men can already crossdress and pretend to be *cisgender* women in order to get into a woman’s locker room. We have no evidence of such an epidemic happening in the past, so why would one happen now?

because now someone can get away with it far easier because they can say they are a woman no matter well they pass as one physically, and even after they've pulled out their dick, and people are inclined to trust them on it.

[Devout Centrist]

because now someone can get away with it far easier because they can say they are a woman no matter well they pass as one physically, and even after they've pulled out their dick, and people are inclined to trust them on it.

If this thread is anything to go by, this actually invites *more* scrutiny, not less.

[HisGrace]

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a dick pic from an evil cishet man it's an "act of violence" and "traumatic".

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a no-op transwoman in a locker room then she's just a prude and bigot if she doesn't like it.

One is getting a dick pic unwanted and for no reason out of the blue

The other is somewhere one could reasonably expect that to happen.

Why are all these conservatives acting like a penis is the most horrifying thing on the planet earth

I'm sure plenty of women don't want to see a penis in a women's locker room. Considering that transpeople are well under 1% of the population, and that out of that well under 1% a lot of them have either had sex changes or have the good sense to not walk around naked in a single sex area for a sex you are not a part of, this is not something a lot of people would "reasonably expect to happen". Just from my perspective I wouldn't "expect" to see someone with a vagina and breasts in a men's locker room. So this meets both the unexpected and unwanted criterion.

The intersectional feminists decided penises were the most horrifying thing on the planet Earth a while ago. While I think that is a bit much it is reasonable that you wouldn't want to see them in places you're not expecting them like a women's locker room.

I guess I'm kind of on the side of the red avs here actually in that I don't think this should be a criminal issue. If the Y really does not regulate this kind of stuff it should ultimately be up to them. But you guys seem to have a huge blind spot jumping between an active fear of penises or full nudism depending on whose penis it is. It's like you don't have any real opinions and just add up someone's oppression score to decide if you'll agree with them or not.

As I have said before, this stuff would be so much simpler if the trans movement just said gender and sex were different things. For things like sports and public showers your sex would be the relevant thing, and for other things like pronouns or whatever your gender would be the relevant thing.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

because now someone can get away with it far easier because they can say they are a woman no matter well they pass as one physically, and even after they've pulled out their dick, and people are inclined to trust them on it.

If this thread is anything to go by, this actually invites *more* scrutiny, not less.

The official stance of major institutions across the country is "If you say you are a woman, then we believe you," which did not used to be the case.  You really can't imagine that even a fraction of a % of the population might be willing to take advantage of that for nefarious reasons?

[7,052,770]

because now someone can get away with it far easier because they can say they are a woman no matter well they pass as one physically, and even after they've pulled out their dick, and people are inclined to trust them on it.

If this thread is anything to go by, this actually invites *more* scrutiny, not less.

The official stance of major institutions across the country is "If you say you are a woman, then we believe you," which did not used to be the case.  You really can't imagine that even a fraction of a % of the population might be willing to take advantage of that for nefarious reasons?

They could just as easily take advantage of the opposite policy - a cisman would enter the women's room by falsely claiming to be a transman who is being forced to go in there.

Either way doesn't really turn up many tangible examples, but if we're just making up hypotheticals, a determined criminal can work under either system.

[Agafin]

Has there ever been a trans related thread which didn't get to at least a hundred posts in this site?

[7,052,770]

Has there ever been a trans related thread which didn't get to at least a hundred posts in this site?

Is that a problem? It's a relevant issue in 2020s politics.

[Mechavada]

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a dick pic from an evil cishet man it's an "act of violence" and "traumatic".

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a no-op transwoman in a locker room then she's just a prude and bigot if she doesn't like it.

One is getting a dick pic unwanted and for no reason out of the blue

The other is somewhere one could reasonably expect that to happen.

Why are all these conservatives acting like a penis is the most horrifying thing on the planet earth

I'm sure plenty of women don't want to see a penis in a women's locker room. Considering that transpeople are well under 1% of the population, and that out of that well under 1% a lot of them have either had sex changes or have the good sense to not walk around naked in a single sex area for a sex you are not a part of, this is not something a lot of people would "reasonably expect to happen". Just from my perspective I wouldn't "expect" to see someone with a vagina and breasts in a men's locker room. So this meets both the unexpected and unwanted criterion.

The intersectional feminists decided penises were the most horrifying thing on the planet Earth a while ago. While I think that is a bit much it is reasonable that you wouldn't want to see them in places you're not expecting them like a women's locker room.

I guess I'm kind of on the side of the red avs here actually in that I don't think this should be a criminal issue. If the Y really does not regulate this kind of stuff it should ultimately be up to them. But you guys seem to have a huge blind spot jumping between an active fear of penises or full nudism depending on whose penis it is. It's like you don't have any real opinions and just add up someone's oppression score to decide if you'll agree with them or not.

As I have said before, this stuff would be so much simpler if the trans movement just said gender and sex were different things. For things like sports and public showers your sex would be the relevant thing, and for other things like pronouns or whatever your gender would be the relevant thing.

Bolded areas of agreement.

For the record I am not taking the radical position that we move to unisex restrooms and locker rooms asap.  However, I think there is a tendency for folks to ascribe too much to a person's inherent biology things that are really influenced by a multitude of other factors.  The reason a lot of men are rapists or even just sexually harass women isn't because we are merely men and that's what men do.  There are too many examples of men who don't rape women and don't sexually harass women that puts holes into this theory.

Now am I dying to get into a women's locker room?  No.  Truth is while I am not gay I would still find being naked in a locker room like place with women (cis or trans) awkward.  I think there are many cismen who agree with me on this.  If I happened to be at a unisex place I would be forced to change in a bathroom stall or other private changing area.  I definitely don't want women or children to feel violated or awkward in this situation so I would do what I could to not make it uncomfortable for them.

So yeah logically while I do get the concerns of folks in this thread about seeing someone naked with a penis I also believe on a level that this should be up to the business in question to decide.  If there are incidents of sexual harassment/assault/etc then I do think whoever was victimized at said place of business should be able to sue the establishment for not doing enough to create a safe environment if said establishment fails to take action and make the place safer.

I say all of this cos I realize earlier in this thread I might have come off sounding like a NO GENDER SEGREGATION radical.  The truth is I'm really not.  I just think based off of what I've read on the subject there is not much of a risk of mass harassment and /or assault by letting a segment of our population that I would be shocked exceeded 1% of the population (which means said women wouldn't see them that often anyway), many of whom are on hormone blockers, into the preferred locker room/bathroom of their choice.  And I massively agree with Ferguson and others who have pointed out that a lot of folks don't seem to see transgender women as possible targets of harassment and sexual assault by flat out ignoring that possibility occurring if they were forced to change in men's locker rooms.  Also, I'm sure you've seen some transmen before. . . . . . do you imagine most ciswomen would feel more comfortable seeing someone who looks like a ripped short dude in their locker room than a 6'2 woman who just happens to have a penis?

SO yeah there are hypocrisies all around on this issue.  There are a lot of things folks seem to be uncomfortable with.  You could call me a hypocrite for pointing out earlier that it is prejudicial to assume that someone with a penis might be a sexual deviant but in this very post saying I would be uncomfortable being naked around women and children in a locker room setting.  That might make me a hypocrite on some level, but frankly I'm much more comfortable with being a hypocrite on this issue than being 100% consistent on it because the latter would make me outright ignorant (in either direction).  My overall take is that we still have awhile for society to get to the stage of unisex restrooms/locker rooms at every gas station but there should be some allowance made for transgender folks who do not feel at all comfortable using the restroom/locker room of their "birth sex".

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

At some point I must admit I began to wonder how the woman in question looked, I must admit my own inner picture of the person have never been very flattering (I imagine them as some big masculine looking person) and maybe I would see this person differently if it was some small feminine looking person. We should always try to look past our own preconceived opinion. So, I decided to look her up, well I was wrong through in a different manner, and it did not change my views in the end.

The first of the two pictures is a older one, I couldn't find a date for the second one.


 

This picture, along with the responses of people in this thread to this story, actually did change my impression.  My sense is now it's more likely this person is socially inept than a sociopath. Like many Atlas posters they may just completely clueless about how a woman or girl might be reasonably uncomfortable by uninvited exhibitions of the male anatomy.

Sex segregated bathrooms and changing facilities exist as much to prevent false suspicion as actual abuse. When that goes and you convince people they have a right to be wherever they feel they belong, the result is predictable.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Transgender people are rightfully concerned about issues that are particular to them but the crowd that insists that this is an extremely important issue for society to obsess over should "log-off". If you're a conservative, why are you obsessing over a handful of non-binary or trans people, when the institution of the family is declining among the poor in the US? More bluntly, why do you spend your time obsessing over the fact that some people are having anal sex or a guy wears lipstick when tens of thousands of people die of opiate overdoses every year? Why don't you care about problems facing the typical person or the typical family instead of obsessing over the very existence of a few atypical people, who you could simply leave alone and ignore?