Transgender woman charged with indecent exposure over Ohio YMCA incident

[Devout Centrist]

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

Why are you bozos so focused on the anatomy? Trans women are 4x as likely to be victims of sexual assault than a cis person is.

If your goal is “as few instances of sexual assault in locker rooms as possible”, then you should support letting trans women in women’s locker rooms.

Because if non-transient trans women are not a threat to cis women, then men aren’t a threat to trans or cis women either.

The big issue with letting men into a woman's locker room isn’t sexual assault - it’s sexual harassment. There are valid safety concerns regarding that, and I think it’s best to err on the side of caution there. I should note this is the same reason why having trans women in a men’s locker room is not a great idea.

As it applies to a woman’s locker room:

1. Transgender women are an extreme minority of the population. Less than 1% in most areas and less than .1% in some.
2. In any given woman’s locker room, the number of transgender women is likely to be very low. This would not be the case if cisgender men were let into woman’s locker rooms.
3. If a transgender woman starts sexually harassing cisgender women, we have the law to deal with such cases.
4. If a cisgender man were to disguise himself as a transgender woman (unlikely as that may be), there are methods to find someone acting in bad faith and the law can deal with them accordingly.
5. People have all sorts of reasons for feeling uncomfortable in a locker room setting. I believe we should do our best to accommodate people, but there’s no guarantee of comfort in life. We cannot, for example, ban particularly ugly or fat people from a locker room just because some in the room may not be comfortable with their presence.

The issue with placing transgender women in a ‘handicapped’ or private room is rather obvious: it singles them out for harassment and is blatantly discriminatory.

[Devout Centrist]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

[It’s so Joever]

Just have one changing one for all genders, no stalls of course. We can keep a security camera in their to ensure everyone is behaving correctly. The solution is very human.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

4. If a cisgender man were to disguise himself as a transgender woman (unlikely as that may be), there are methods to find someone acting in bad faith and the law can deal with them accordingly.

Why would this be unlikely?   If one goes by self-ID and trusting people are whatever they say
are, there is no method to find someone acting in bad faith.

[Joe Republic]

The solution is actually extremely simple.  Just ban all YMCAs.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

The solution is actually extremely simple.  Just ban all YMCAs.

Some of my fondest memories are of going to the YMCA as a kid in Alameda; I also really enjoyed their summer camp activities growing up. The Y (which is actually how many YMCA's have rebranded) is for all intents and purposes a great community based service for families that offers a lot of fitness and nutrition services for very cheap.

I get you're probably being facetious, but 'alas.

[Devout Centrist]

4. If a cisgender man were to disguise himself as a transgender woman (unlikely as that may be), there are methods to find someone acting in bad faith and the law can deal with them accordingly.

Why would this be unlikely?   If one goes by self-ID and trusting people are whatever they say
are, there is no method to find someone acting in bad faith.

The vast majority of cisgender men aren’t sexual predators. Not to mention that men can already crossdress and pretend to be *cisgender* women in order to get into a woman’s locker room. We have no evidence of such an epidemic happening in the past, so why would one happen now?

[DaleCooper]

Even if no harassment happens, women should not have to hope that the naked person with a penis in front of them is actually a feminine-identifying transgender person. That's not a reasonable accommodation that women should have to meet for pretty obvious reasons.

[Mechavada]

4. If a cisgender man were to disguise himself as a transgender woman (unlikely as that may be), there are methods to find someone acting in bad faith and the law can deal with them accordingly.

Why would this be unlikely?   If one goes by self-ID and trusting people are whatever they say
are, there is no method to find someone acting in bad faith.

The vast majority of cisgender men aren’t sexual predators. Not to mention that men can already crossdress and pretend to be *cisgender* women in order to get into a woman’s locker room. We have no evidence of such an epidemic happening in the past, so why would one happen now?

This.  Times a thousand.

I heavily resent the notion that because I have a penis I'm apt to rape somebody.  Which makes me sympathetic to the plight of these transwomen.  Yes, sexual assault is a serious concern.  It can happen anywhere.  But I really don't see how trying to strictly define who is and isn't a man or a woman is the proper way to do it, which is basically what these anti-trans efforts are doing.  This is the very basis of prejudicial thought, to assume wrongdoing and ill intent based on a person's appearance and background before they even have a chance to give just cause to give suspicion.

Repeat after me: if you suspect a crime is going on just dial 9/11.

[ingemann]

4. If a cisgender man were to disguise himself as a transgender woman (unlikely as that may be), there are methods to find someone acting in bad faith and the law can deal with them accordingly.

Why would this be unlikely?   If one goes by self-ID and trusting people are whatever they say
are, there is no method to find someone acting in bad faith.

The vast majority of cisgender men aren’t sexual predators. Not to mention that men can already crossdress and pretend to be *cisgender* women in order to get into a woman’s locker room. We have no evidence of such an epidemic happening in the past, so why would one happen now?

This.  Times a thousand.

I heavily resent the notion that because I have a penis I'm apt to rape somebody.  Which makes me sympathetic to the plight of these transwomen.  Yes, sexual assault is a serious concern.  It can happen anywhere.  But I really don't see how trying to strictly define who is and isn't a man or a woman is the proper way to do it, which is basically what these anti-trans efforts are doing.  This is the very basis of prejudicial thought, to assume wrongdoing and ill intent based on a person's appearance and background before they even have a chance to give just cause to give suspicion.

Repeat after me: if you suspect a crime is going on just dial 9/11.

The problem is that the argument people use in this thread for trans women to use women's locker rooms are that people with penises are dangerous for trans women.

I have also at no point mentioned a risk of sexual assault and neither do I think anyone else have, I get why people have read it into the discussion, but for me it has always been a question about women's right to safe spaces. I also think that trans women have a right to safe spaces, but i don't think that it should come at the expense of cis women's right to the same.

The fact that the trans women in the article was described to behave in a very obnoxious masculine manner. In that she had her back to locker, so that everyone could see her genitals, which is a way some men behave in men's locker rooms too and is incredibly obnoxious*. In this case it also makes me question whether the person is transgender and not just someone who wanted to expose himself in public. 

*I had a co-worker who behaved in that manner and when asked to stop by a younger Muslim co-worker to stop, he was in the younger man's face.

[ingemann]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

[Devout Centrist]

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

You can certainly tell that Lia Thomas was born male (in part because it is a matter of public record now), but there are cisgender woman who look quite similar to Thomas and definitely those who look similarly masculine. That’s my point.

[Ferguson97]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

[DaleCooper]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

[Ferguson97]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

If you are, by definition, not clocking these trans women, then how can you possibly say that it's "pretty rare"? This is just survivorship bias, you only notice the trans women who don't pass, so you make this inference that it's rare for a trans woman to pass.

[DaleCooper]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

If you are, by definition, not clocking these trans women, then how can you possibly say that it's "pretty rare"? This is just survivorship bias, you only notice the trans women who don't pass, so you make this inference that it's rare for a trans woman to pass.

It's a pretty safe assumption, but I was more referring to women being misidentified as trans.

[world.execute(me)]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

If you are, by definition, not clocking these trans women, then how can you possibly say that it's "pretty rare"? This is just survivorship bias, you only notice the trans women who don't pass, so you make this inference that it's rare for a trans woman to pass.

It's a pretty safe assumption

It very much isn't.

[DaleCooper]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

If you are, by definition, not clocking these trans women, then how can you possibly say that it's "pretty rare"? This is just survivorship bias, you only notice the trans women who don't pass, so you make this inference that it's rare for a trans woman to pass.

It's a pretty safe assumption

It very much isn't.

In the close proximity of a locker room, especially given that people in there are changing in and out of clothes, I think it's safe to say that the percentage of people who are mistaken for the wrong sex is incredibly small, and even that is understating it.

[world.execute(me)]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

This is a very stupid metric because there are a lot of trans women who pass very well, and lots of cis women who would get incorrectly clocked as trans.

I think that's pretty rare and most likely talked up for the purposes of conversations like this.

If you are, by definition, not clocking these trans women, then how can you possibly say that it's "pretty rare"? This is just survivorship bias, you only notice the trans women who don't pass, so you make this inference that it's rare for a trans woman to pass.

It's a pretty safe assumption

It very much isn't.

In the close proximity of a locker room, especially given that people in there are changing in and out of clothes, I think it's safe to say that the percentage of people who are mistaken for the wrong sex is incredibly small, and even that is understating it.

We weren't talking about while undressing. We were talking about who is allowed in in the first place. And without undressing, many trans women pass fine. For that matter, a good chunk of us who've gotten SRS would pass fine even undressed.

[Frodo]

4. If a cisgender man were to disguise himself as a transgender woman (unlikely as that may be), there are methods to find someone acting in bad faith and the law can deal with them accordingly.

Why would this be unlikely?   If one goes by self-ID and trusting people are whatever they say
are, there is no method to find someone acting in bad faith.

The vast majority of cisgender men aren’t sexual predators. Not to mention that men can already crossdress and pretend to be *cisgender* women in order to get into a woman’s locker room. We have no evidence of such an epidemic happening in the past, so why would one happen now?

This.  Times a thousand.

I heavily resent the notion that because I have a penis I'm apt to rape somebody.  Which makes me sympathetic to the plight of these transwomen.  Yes, sexual assault is a serious concern.  It can happen anywhere.  But I really don't see how trying to strictly define who is and isn't a man or a woman is the proper way to do it, which is basically what these anti-trans efforts are doing.  This is the very basis of prejudicial thought, to assume wrongdoing and ill intent based on a person's appearance and background before they even have a chance to give just cause to give suspicion.

Repeat after me: if you suspect a crime is going on just dial 9/11.

When I mentioned 'sexual predators' in my first post on this thread, I was not just referring to sexual assault.  Sexual harassment is every bit their calling card as raping someone.  It comes from the same misogynist mindset that encourages those acts.  We resolve that problem starting with how children are raised, and then this whole argument over how to accommodate the transgendered to everyone's satisfaction (including theirs) will eventually fade away.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

In this case, it shouldn’t even matter how you feel about trans people or whether a person was even trans or not.  The Y has a policy that they do not assign any individuals to specific locker rooms period. Anyone is allowed to use any locker room.  How can this woman be charged with a crime if she’s just abiding by the policy of the business she’s at?

[HisGrace]

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a dick pic from an evil cishet man it's an "act of violence" and "traumatic".

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a no-op transwoman in a locker room then she's just a prude and bigot if she doesn't like it.

[John Dule]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

“there are some kids who are six feet tall so I don’t see why anyone’s complaining” i say, as a 6’4” man, whilst I dunk on 9-year-olds at my local grade school basketball tournament

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a dick pic from an evil cishet man it's an "act of violence" and "traumatic".

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a no-op transwoman in a locker room then she's just a prude and bigot if she doesn't like it.

One is getting a dick pic unwanted and for no reason out of the blue

The other is somewhere one could reasonably expect that to happen.

Why are all these conservatives acting like a penis is the most horrifying thing on the planet earth

[They not like us]

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a dick pic from an evil cishet man it's an "act of violence" and "traumatic".

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a no-op transwoman in a locker room then she's just a prude and bigot if she doesn't like it.

The difference, of course, is that when someone sends an unsolicited dick pic to someone, it's inherently sexual and non-consensual because it's unsolicited. Being naked in a locker room is usually more acceptable. Also, I don't know how transwomen usually behave in locker rooms, but I can't imagine many of them walk around intentionally flaunting their penis. If they do, then that's a crime that a cis male would also face if he did that in a men's locker room. But I've been in locker rooms with plenty of cis men who do not flaunt their penises.

You're equating a crime to a person just existing. They aren't the same.