Transgender woman charged with indecent exposure over Ohio YMCA incident

[SteveRogers]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

If it’s so simple and easy, then I have two questions for you: 1) Who should be in charge of verifying the anatomy of everyone entering the changing room? And 2) when you say “shouldn’t” do you mean that you would ideally prefer to see private establishments like the YMCA set their policies accordingly, or do you mean that it should be literally illegal for an establishment to operate non-gendered locker rooms and trans women using the women’s locker room should be subject to criminal penalties regardless of the private establishment’s rules on the use of locker rooms?

[Devout Centrist]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

The hard part is usually getting naked in front of other people in a locker room. Once you’ve got that down…

[Ferguson97]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

Do you really not see any potential issues with forcing a trans woman to share a locker room with a bunch of cis men?

Also are you saying that it’s fine for a trans man to use the men’s changing room, but not fine for a trans woman to use the women’s changing room? Huh?

[ingemann]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

Do you really not see any potential issues with forcing a trans woman to share a locker room with a bunch of cis men?

Well if it’s not a problem making people with male anatomy share locker room with cis women, why is it a problem to make trans women share locker room with people with male anatomy?

[Ferguson97]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

Do you really not see any potential issues with forcing a trans woman to share a locker room with a bunch of cis men?

Well if it’s not a problem making people with male anatomy share locker room with cis women, why is it a problem to make trans women share locker room with people with male anatomy?

Because those trans women will be at risk of being sexually assaulted if they are forced to be in the men’s changing room.

[Devout Centrist]

Well if it’s not a problem making people with male anatomy share locker room with cis women, why is it a problem to make trans women share locker room with people with male anatomy?

In the vast majority of cases, trans women wear female clothing and have taken hormones that alter their gender expression to make them appear more feminine. While I don’t think it’s a big issue, trans women are distinct from cisgender men and ought to be able to use a locker room that matches their gender expression.

[ingemann]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

Do you really not see any potential issues with forcing a trans woman to share a locker room with a bunch of cis men?

Well if it’s not a problem making people with male anatomy share locker room with cis women, why is it a problem to make trans women share locker room with people with male anatomy?

Because those trans women will be at risk of being sexually assaulted if they are forced to be in the men’s changing room.

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

[Ferguson97]

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

Why are you bozos so focused on the anatomy? Trans women are 4x as likely to be victims of sexual assault than a cis person is.

If your goal is “as few instances of sexual assault in locker rooms as possible”, then you should support letting trans women in women’s locker rooms.

[DaleCooper]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

If it’s so simple and easy, then I have two questions for you: 1) Who should be in charge of verifying the anatomy of everyone entering the changing room? And 2) when you say “shouldn’t” do you mean that you would ideally prefer to see private establishments like the YMCA set their policies accordingly, or do you mean that it should be literally illegal for an establishment to operate non-gendered locker rooms and trans women using the women’s locker room should be subject to criminal penalties regardless of the private establishment’s rules on the use of locker rooms?

1) No one is in charge of verifying the anatomy of people entering the changing room. Ideally people would abide by the social contract and not expose their penises in women's locker rooms.

2) Places like the YMCA have the right to do whatever they want but they should have a little class and let their patrons know that the women's room is the gender-inclusive personal identity room and not a designated area for females to change and shower.

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

Do you really not see any potential issues with forcing a trans woman to share a locker room with a bunch of cis men?

Also are you saying that it’s fine for a trans man to use the men’s changing room, but not fine for a trans woman to use the women’s changing room? Huh?

They don't have to use the men's locker room. I'm fine with a unisex facility as well. A unisex changing room is actually a pretty cheap and easy way to solve this problem, but I have a feeling the usual suspects would not like that either.

As for it being "fine" for a trans man to use the men's changing room, it just doesn't matter that much for pretty obvious reasons.

[ingemann]

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

Why are you bozos so focused on the anatomy? Trans women are 4x as likely to be victims of sexual assault than a cis person is.

If your goal is “as few instances of sexual assault in locker rooms as possible”, then you should support letting trans women in women’s locker rooms.

Because if non-transient trans women are not a threat to cis women, then men aren’t a threat to trans or cis women either.

Do I really think trans women should be forced to use male locker room not really, I think that every place with locker rooms should have a private locker room for handicapped people, which can also be use by non-handicapped exceptions like trans women or people who really don’t like to be naked with other people, while I understand that this is humiliating, I think this is the best solution.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

Why are you bozos so focused on the anatomy? Trans women are 4x as likely to be victims of sexual assault than a cis person is.

If your goal is “as few instances of sexual assault in locker rooms as possible”, then you should support letting trans women in women’s locker rooms.

Because if non-transient trans women are not a threat to cis women, then men aren’t a threat to trans or cis women either.

Do I really think trans women should be forced to use male locker room not really, I think that every place with locker rooms should have a private locker room for handicapped people, which can also be use by non-handicapped exceptions like trans women or people who really don’t like to be naked with other people, while I understand that this is humiliating, I think this is the best solution.

That argument doesn’t hold water. Just looking at simple crime statistics proves it wrong.

But I do agree with your second point. I (cis) in general don’t like public changing rooms and tryi to avoid them, but in general I think it has to do (in part) because I’m gay and feel very vulnerable to harm in a room surrounded by straight men, whether rational or not.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

Why are you bozos so focused on the anatomy? Trans women are 4x as likely to be victims of sexual assault than a cis person is.

If your goal is “as few instances of sexual assault in locker rooms as possible”, then you should support letting trans women in women’s locker rooms.

Wait, so putting biological males likely attracted to cis females with a high rate of mental illness is a way to reduce sexual assaults?

[Frodo]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Too many men are wired to be sexual predators for co-ed locker-rooms (and bathrooms and showers, etc.) to work in real life.  At least currently.  Not saying mindsets can't eventually change, though.  Maybe give it another generation or two, and we can look back on this argument with the same bemusement we now give to past disputes over gay marriage.  

[Mechavada]

I think this whole issue more than anything shows how prudish Americans are about something as simple as getting naked for five minutes around other people.

[Mechavada]

Well and also to be frank like how would a strict enforcement of any "no trans allowed" locker room policies even work?  Not to be a jackass here but there are many ciswomen who look like f***ing men and there are many pre-op transwomen who you could never tell have a penis.  And yeah in this case obviously it was a transgender woman naked out in the locker room but what if she went to a nearby stall to change and then quickly walked out?  Like unless one of these hallway monitors got freaking lucky and just happened to catch a naked woman with a penis there's like almost no way that such a policy could be enforced practically!

[Frodo]

Well and also to be frank like how would a strict enforcement of any "no trans allowed" locker room policies even work?  Not to be a jackass here but there are many ciswomen who look like f***ing men and there are many pre-op transwomen who you could never tell have a penis.  And yeah in this case obviously it was a transgender woman naked out in the locker room but what if she went to a nearby stall to change and then quickly walked out?  Like unless one of these hallway monitors got freaking lucky and just happened to catch a naked woman with a penis there's like almost no way that such a policy could be enforced practically!

It would require unacceptable violations of our privacy and the Constitution, which is why it is inevitable we are going to eventually end up with everything being co-ed.  

[VBM]

There’s no argument against allowing trans people to go into the locker rooms matching their gender identity that wouldn’t logically extend to cis gay people. It’s a ludicrous line of thinking.

Correct. If it's about reducing the likelihood of assumed 'predatory' behaviour and not about genitals, then lesbian and bisexual women should also be excluded from changing with straight women.

If it's about genitals, then the only fair way is rather than to assume how someone presents themselves, or accept them calling themselves 'she', is to check genitals prior to allowing women into changing rooms.

There would be no need to check their genitals prior. Just punish them if they get caught being in the wrong locker room.

[ingemann]

Well and also to be frank like how would a strict enforcement of any "no trans allowed" locker room policies even work?  Not to be a jackass here but there are many ciswomen who look like f***ing men and there are many pre-op transwomen who you could never tell have a penis.  And yeah in this case obviously it was a transgender woman naked out in the locker room but what if she went to a nearby stall to change and then quickly walked out?  Like unless one of these hallway monitors got freaking lucky and just happened to catch a naked woman with a penis there's like almost no way that such a policy could be enforced practically!

If no one discover a trans person is a trans person, who in their right mind cares? The problem here is that the person this case started with was very visually anatomical male and decide to put her genital into everyone's sight. If this person had looked like a woman and had gone to a stall to change, there would be no case at all, and everyone would be happy.

The problem here is that a lot of people pretend that trans woman is just a woman who happens to have a penis, and outside that no one can see the difference, and yes there're trans woman who looks like that. But...


Lia Thomas

There's also some who are big and very visually born male.

...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

Trans woman Ibi-Pippi (performance artist)

[7,052,770]

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely

Private changing stalls should always be an option for anyone (local custom can determine whether they're the only option or not) and people with non-standard genitals should use the stalls.

Boom, problem solved in an inclusive, non-transphobic way that still takes the concerns of most women seriously.

[emailking]

Yeah I was thinking this whole issue is moot if there are a bunch of private changing areas in the locker room but maybe cost is an issue.

[7,052,770]

Yeah I was thinking this whole issue is moot if there are a bunch of private changing areas in the locker room but maybe cost is an issue.

Have you ever heard of a restroom deciding not to put up stall walls because "cost is an issue" ?

The same principle should apply to changing rooms. It doesn't have to be luxurious private rooms, just some kind of dividers or even curtains.

Even if the clientele is 100% cis forever, a lot of people like their privacy.

[emailking]

I have no idea. I'd personally prefer a private area myself.

[Comrade Funk]

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

Why are you bozos so focused on the anatomy? Trans women are 4x as likely to be victims of sexual assault than a cis person is.

If your goal is “as few instances of sexual assault in locker rooms as possible”, then you should support letting trans women in women’s locker rooms.

Wait, so putting biological males likely attracted to cis females with a high rate of mental illness is a way to reduce sexual assaults?

Stop asking questions and just say what you feel. Jesus.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Getting into serious discussions in threads like this:

[Frodo]

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely

Private changing stalls should always be an option for anyone (local custom can determine whether they're the only option or not) and people with non-standard genitals should use the stalls.

Boom, problem solved in an inclusive, non-transphobic way that still takes the concerns of most women seriously.

What might apply in toilet/shower stalls makes no sense in a gym locker-room.  You'd have to tear lockers out to make the space, which (for a private gym) means lost business.  And do we really need to make the transgendered feel even more Othered than they already do?  They are asking for equality, not special treatment.  Just get used to seeing each other naked.  You'll get over the novelty real quick.