Israel-Gaza war

[Aurelius2]

Horrific. A fitting response is required. The terrorist snake's nest needs to go. Stay safe, Hnv1 and Parrotguy.

It's very sad that this is what "land for peace" has come to.

I wish Israel and the IDF all the best in beating back these terrorist scum.

My prayers are with Eretz Yisrael and with Parrotguy, Hnv, and any other Israelis who may be reading this at this horrific time.

[Aurelius2]

The last act of Hamas.

God willing.

[Aurelius2]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

It's a series of deliberate massacres of civilians. No one has a right to do that.

Than why does Hamas do that?

Because they’re evil and want to kill Jews.

They're defending from a genocide being perpetrated on their people. Whoever attacks them is even irrelevant. Also its not jews, its Israeli people that occupy them. That's different, many Jewish people for instance condemn Israël as well. Many of my political idols are Jewish. Many of the greatest communists ever were Jewish.

.......

I don't even know where to begin with this one.

[Aurelius2]

Does there appear to be any truth to the rumors of a coming Hezbollah invasion from the north?

[Aurelius2]

All of this is very sad, and also very unsurprising. This part of the world has been at war for thousands of years and I don't see that ending in the next thousand.

Nihilistic nonsense with no grounding in fact.

[Aurelius2]

I just got off the phone with my mother. I had not realized that my grandmother is actually in Israel at this time, visiting a cousin. This cousin works for the State Department and they are in a safe location. This got wrenchingly personal very fast.

[Aurelius2]

I doubt Hamas will survive after this. Hamas only has 30000 soldiers, and Israel has 160000 soldiers. Hamas will also not have very much international support because it is bad optics for a world leader to support a terrorist organization. This could potentially be an opportunity for Fatah to regain power in the West Bank.

This has not stopped countries throughout the Middle East from supporting this terrorist organization for decades. They weren't not a terrorist organization yesterday. Their aim has always been the annihilation of every last Jew, "from the river to the sea".

[Aurelius2]

Dumb move by Palestine but I’ll not shed fake tears for Israel considering all the history of this conflict either. That’s exactly what they were waiting and hoping for, some excuse to get into direct war without getting too bad of a PR in the West. Would honestly be wonderful if both sides could lose. We’re talking about an imperialist apartheid regime oppressing an Islamic theocracy that violates the human rights of minorities.

Naturally, the Western and White Imperialist countries will side with Israel because that’s who they identify with better and the Islamic Dictatorships will side with Palestine because it’s the one culturally closer to them as well.

Yeah, that's exactly what we expected from you. If only there was some unifying factory between Ukraine and Israel that would explain this at the moment.

Israeli support for Ukraine has been very tepid. Weren't they at one point floated as a neutral location for peace talks?

Israel has been downright traitorous regarding Ukraine, but this should not be shocking, the Netanyahu government supports illegal invasions.

Traitorous against who, themselves?

[Aurelius2]

Civilians who survived the attack on a big outdoor party tell of terrorists shooting at people who were raising their hands and begging for mercy. If some tankies here want to know what not to shed any tears for

The same ones who held a picnic and cheered on airstrikes on Gaza last time this happened, or different ones?

This is a piss-poor false equivalency, because those airstrikes were specifically on terrorist equipment and facilities used to launch the all-too-regular airstrikes that people in Sderot have only 15 seconds to reach shelter from.

Anyway I'm pretty sure it's different groups of people.

Oh, and for all the people in this thread trying to make this into some race conflict between evil white JewishZionist oppressors and poor opressed brown Palestinians, here is a picture of Israeli Jews at the aforementioned hilltop in Sderot.

[Aurelius2]

According to the Times of Israel, the Israeli death toll has risen to at least 200. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-october-7-2023/

[Aurelius2]

Hopefully we stay the hell out and don't give Israel a cent.

Hopefully we give Israel , air support

Israel isn't asking for any military support. This isn't Ukraine. Hamas is a massively outgunned, incredibly vicious enemy with no chance of victory but every chance of causing immense suffering. It's closer to 9/11 than Pearl Harbor or anything else, in that the attacked country will now take the gloves off.

The US is needed for exactly two things - regular Iron Dome replenishment, which is already assumed, and a firm grip on its UN veto pen. But this isn't their war and Israel doesn't want it to be.

The US has given Israel an abundance of military support over the years, including the F-35s, free of charge.

Yes, they are a great beta tester for US materiel. This is not nearly as one-sided a relationship as some make it out to be.

[Aurelius2]

Hopefully we stay the hell out and don't give Israel a cent.

Hopefully we give Israel , air support

Israel isn't asking for any military support. This isn't Ukraine. Hamas is a massively outgunned, incredibly vicious enemy with no chance of victory but every chance of causing immense suffering. It's closer to 9/11 than Pearl Harbor or anything else, in that the attacked country will now take the gloves off.

The US is needed for exactly two things - regular Iron Dome replenishment, which is already assumed, and a firm grip on its UN veto pen. But this isn't their war and Israel doesn't want it to be.

The US has given Israel an abundance of military support over the years, including the F-35s, free of charge.

Yes, they are a great beta tester for US materiel. This is not nearly as one-sided a relationship as some make it out to be.

Ukraine would love to beta test F-35s and all of the US new weapons too.

Total non sequitur.

[Aurelius2]

Terrible, terrible, terrible. Hundreds of people have already died, and I fear the count will continue to skyrocket. And this was completely out of the blue, not like the Ukraine war at all. Hopefully it doesn't spill over into other countries.

When people are oppressed and have their land stolen from them, they tend to lash out.

This was entirely predictable.

Are you aware that Hamas-ruled Gaza exists specifically because in 2005 Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, including forcing Israeli settlers out at gunpoint, under the banner of 'land for peace'?

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1710730202353934338?s=20

I have been very harsh on Omar, but I will give her credit here. Good for her, this is evidence she is growing toward a more mature understanding of the situation.

[Aurelius2]

Terrible, terrible, terrible. Hundreds of people have already died, and I fear the count will continue to skyrocket. And this was completely out of the blue, not like the Ukraine war at all. Hopefully it doesn't spill over into other countries.

When people are oppressed and have their land stolen from them, they tend to lash out.

This was entirely predictable.

Are you aware that Hamas-ruled Gaza exists specifically because in 2005 Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, including forcing Israeli settlers out at gunpoint, under the banner of 'land for peace'?

Israel has no right to Gaza in the first place.

And they left Gaza. Your point?

[Aurelius2]

Al Jazeera's reporting on this is sickening, very concerned about how this will impact relations between Israel and the Gulf states after the recent thaw.

IMEC memorandum was signed less than a month ago, really do hope it's not DOA now.

Yeah, I just took a look at the Al Jazeera live feed and it's terribad.

[Aurelius2]

I have created a separate thread to argue about the conflict as it existed before today and its historical background. https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566265.new#new

I have played a part in the f**kification of this thread by engaging with certain people and I will now try to do my part in undoing this by making any further replies over there instead of here.

[Aurelius2]

Israeli death toll rises to 250+, injured rises to 1450+
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-october-7-2023/

[Aurelius2]

Ongoing hostage situation in a kibbutz 2 miles from Gaza: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-israelis-still-held-hostage-inside-kibbutz-dining-hall/

[Aurelius2]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

What a ghoulish thing to wish for. The states will not disappear without hundreds of thousands, if not (much more likely) millions, of people dying.

[Aurelius2]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

What a ghoulish thing to wish for. The states will not disappear without hundreds of thousands, if not (much more likely) millions, of people dying.

The US need not get involved esp. there is no "good" side to align with.

Non sequitur.

[Aurelius2]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

We should provide as much help to Israel as they were willing to give to Ukraine.

This is a lol worthy comparison . Yes Israel should support Ukraine more but we should not let a situation arise where Jews have no potential refuge from oppression like it existed for centuries.

If forced to choose , I would say its more important from a Humanitarian perspective for Israel to be saved because there are many nations that could be a potential refuge for Ukrainians as there are many Christian Countries on the planet while there is only one Jewish nation.

What does the US get in return?

We are not standing up for democratic values since Israel is not a democracy.

Ensuring a Jewish Nation exists. Something are more important than a democracy and given the oppression Jews have faced over the centuries, them having a nation is more important than Israel being a democracy.

Why is ensuring the survival of an authoritarian "Jewish Nation" in the US interest?

Genocide is bad and Jews have a recent (and long) history of suffering this in the diaspora. Anyway, please take this to the other thread.

[Aurelius2]

New update from Netanyahu. Key quote:

He says he spoke with President Biden and other world leaders from France, Britain and beyond, thanks Biden for his “unreserved support,” and says he secured international backing for “freedom of action” for Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-thanks-biden-for-unreserved-support-says-israel-faces-challenging-days-but-will-win/

My (possibly piss-poor) reading of the tea-leaves leads me to think he is hinting at some operation to not just push Hamas out of the areas of Israeli territory it has captured, but break their rule over Gaza once and for all. The status quo seems unsustainable after this, this isn't just another spate of rocket attacks.

[Aurelius2]

snip

Why is "[Jewish people] have a nation" more important than "Israel being a democracy"?

PLEASE. TAKE. THIS. TO. THE. OTHER. THREAD.

[Aurelius2]

So, the reason why hamas managed to enter so easily is because the military are busy babysitting the security of west bank settlers? If I was Israeli I would be furious at the selfishness.

I have not been following IDF deployments closely prior to today, but I do believe I read that something like 24 divisions were in the West Bank prior to this. I would still be tempted to put this more on the security services and less on the IDF though, since Israel is a very small country and forces can be redeployed quickly due to this. Regardless, if there were not some level of forces stationed along the Gaza Border and ready to go at any time, yes that is inexcusable. *Especially* since it is on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war and doubly especially since today is Simchat Torah, an important Jewish holiday, and the terrorists have an established penchant for attacking on Jewish holidays.