Israel-Gaza war

[Middle-aged Europe]

Wut?

[Middle-aged Europe]

More reporting on the actual conflict please and less "random group/person X is gonna this about the conflict and this will confirm the negative opinion that I always held about that group/person".

[Middle-aged Europe]

Israel is a democracy with some... issues - some of them having come up rather recently as you may know - but it is a democracy nonetheless and is also still beating anyone in its vicinity in that regard.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The Brandenburg Gate in Berlin tonight.

Odd déjà vu... it used to be Blue-Yellow colour scheme back in February of 2022.

[Middle-aged Europe]

What this thread shows is that random online commentators are not serious people to discuss sensitive conflicts with.

Actually I quite like a few of them

that's the worst part of this dumpster fire of a thread, really. All the stupid and insane posts ITT are rehashing the same dumb arguments over and over at such an absurdly high volume it totally drowns out the genuinely good posts some people have been making. I catch up on this thread and wade through five pages of trash and along the way discover genuine nuggets of insightful wisdom that could -- should -- have been the start of a fascinating discussion I'd delight in reading. But instead they were ignored, hidden by the swarm of posts from people who lack sanity or empathy or both.

Some of you folks are among the intelligent people I've ever known, and I'll always value what you bring to the table. Some of these people have even contributed to this thread!

It kinda makes me sad in a way, like a brief unexpected glimpse into a parallel world, one where this forum is truly the kind of cool place i very much wish it could be

This thread is a mess that proves once again that Israel/Palestine is a hot-button issues that always manages to bring out the worst in people, for some reason.

[Middle-aged Europe]

https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1711384192435556383

[Middle-aged Europe]

AP reports that the Egyptian government repeatedly tried to warn Israel that Hamas was planning this invasion - that Netanyahu knew what was coming but still failed to stop it

Allies who share intelligence with Israel said security agencies were misreading reality.

An Egyptian intelligence official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of Jewish West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown in the face of a rising tide of violence there over the last 18 months.

“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media.

for what it's worth, Netanyahu's office has issued a statement denying it

What else is he gonna do?

"Yup, I f***ed that one up."  ?

[Middle-aged Europe]

If true, he should resign in disgrace
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1711394276687388687

Should resign in disgrace anyway but yes. The independent investigation after this will be really important.

Even without the pre-invasion issues, this government has been embarrassing throughout the past few days- transportation, welfare, information, everything. The government ministers being incompetent sycophants shows. The focus right now is squarely on taking down hamas, but once it’s over they will have to pay a heavy political price or there’s really no hope.

Forming a "national unity" government now can only help improving the Netanyahu cabinet's competence and performance, I guess.

[Middle-aged Europe]

There is zero chance Hamas controls the Gaza Strip after this war. Not only is Hamas significantly outnumbered (160K IDF soldiers vs. 30K Hamas soldiers); but Hamas is not getting the international support it had in the past, and the United States, the largest military superpower, is aiding Israel. With such a lopsided situation, Israel will easily end Hamas rule over the Gaza Strip. However, it is important to note that, given the fact that Hamas is outnumbered 5:1, Israel could easily end Hamas rule in Gaza without American support.

Moreover, Netanyahu's approval rating will likely plummet after the war ends. Opposition parties will repeatedly question his ignoring of intelligence indicating an attack weeks prior to the actual attack. It is likely that Likud fails to receive a plurality of the vote in the next election, and many opposition parties have formed an anti-Netanyahu coalition.

Hamas and Netanyahu being toast are some of the few good things that will come out of it.

On the downside the 150 Israeli hostages are probably as good as dead - at least a professor from the German Armed Forces University in Munich who was on TV tonight said as much - as are an undetermined number of Gaza civilians caught in the crossfire. The reasoning behind the former part is that you can either negotiate for their release or you can crush Hamas militarily, but you can't do both at the same time - and a successful rescue op seems unlikely especially given the crapshot intel Israel has run on lately.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So, what happens if Hezbollah decides to launch a massive attack of their own while Israel is busy trying to destroy Hamas? Or the West Bank erupts to the extent that the PA’s security forces are completely overwhelmed?

It’s pretty clear that Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and their sponsors in Tehran are far better at sophisticated, well-coordinated operations than the Arab armies of the 20th century who tried and failed to destroy Israel by waging war on multiple fronts. I suppose that’s the advantage of highly motivated networks of non-state actors (with plenty of crucial support from a highly motivated state actor in the Islamic Republic, of course) with basically the same goals, as opposed to the corrupt and incompetent regular armies of a bunch of rival dictators. In any event, I’m genuinely worried about multiple fronts here.

At the end of the day, Israel is still a nuclear power, while Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran ain't. Guess what happens if Israel's existence were really threatened in a conventional warfare scenario.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Gallant can use as much harsh language as he likes, as he long as he doesn't actually commit atrocities in real life IMO. He proved to be a reasonable authority figure during the whole judicial reforms boondoggle, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Gallant can use as much harsh language as he likes, as he long as he doesn't actually commit atrocities in real life IMO. He proved to be a reasonable authority figure during the whole judicial reforms boondoggle, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

It's in Israel's interests not to come across as criminals, or to use rhetoric that increases resistance in Gaza and elsewhere. Obviously it's worse if he actually commits crimes, but getting the words right is part of his job.

The man saw 1,000 of his countrymen slaughtered less than half a week ago, so I'm willing to grant him some leeway... for now.

[Middle-aged Europe]

LOL

https://twitter.com/TMZ/status/1711841607379460470?t=0oLV1D79cAuOlrGER1LuXw&...

Interesting job to get canceled from over this.

https://twitter.com/GarrettPetersen/status/1711788778665509059

Is this supposed to be a reference to the fact that Mia Khalifa once stirred up controversy by doing a threesome in a hijab?

[Middle-aged Europe]

The move, which would bring Netanyahu and Opposition Leader Yair Lapid together during the national emergency, would almost certainly spell an end to the premier’s controversial judicial reform plans, which have divided the country in recent months.

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/benjamin-netanyahu-yair-lapid-and-benny-gantz-poised-to-form-unity-government-3hIEjV3nQ1XmO9SR0xPuOp

[Middle-aged Europe]

Uh oh...

Israel was warned by Egypt of potential violence three days before Hamas' deadly cross-border raid, a US congressional panel chairman has said.

House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee head Michael McCaul told reporters of the alleged warning.

...

"We know that Egypt has warned the Israelis three days prior that an event like this could happen," Mr McCaul told reporters following a closed-door intelligence briefing on Wednesday for lawmakers about the Middle East crisis, according to AFP news agency.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047

[Middle-aged Europe]

Olaf Scholz has announced a ban on the PFLP-affiliated Samidoun network who had recently organized pro-Palestinian celebrations in Germany.

Meanwhile, he'll meet with the Emir of Qatar - a prominent funder of Hamas - for lunch today.

So it goes.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Lindsey Graham is a buffoon. News at 11.

[Middle-aged Europe]

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/11/zelensky-israel-hamas-war-gaza-visit-netanyahu

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky wants to visit Israel in a show of solidarity with the country amid the fighting in Gaza, two Ukrainian and Israeli officials told Axios.

FYI - this doesn’t give you any sort of moral high ground. Zelensky is toeing the western position because his future depends on their continued support against his imperialist invader.

There were absolutely political reasons for his statement (I think this was more about improving relations with Israel than "the West"), but I wouldn't completely rule out the personal factors.

Coincidentally, Israel and Ukraine are the two countries in the world with a Jewish head of state right now.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Coincidentally, Israel and Ukraine are the two countries in the world with a Jewish head of state right now.

Panama has a Jewish President. When you add heads of government, Russia and France join the list.

Laurentino Cortizo is Catholic, although his mother was of Jewish descent.

[Middle-aged Europe]

It's a difficult situation. I understand that due to Israeli military action there's a humanitarian crisis in the making in Gaza. On the other hand, given how far Hamas has crossed the line, I also understand the Israeli desire to settle this once and for all now. So the impending ground offensive conveys the feeling of certain historical inevitability. To quote Ambassador Kosh: "The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." One can only hope for a quick Israeli victory, instead of a prolonged bloodbath. America appears to try to be a moderating influence, so that's a ray of hope. Imagine Trump being in charge right now, spouting off his usual nonsense.

[Middle-aged Europe]

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1713137233018986916

[Middle-aged Europe]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

It more or less is going to approach those lines at this rate like Grozny. Whether they have any other choice that doesn’t risk more of their own people is a different question but that doesn’t change the cold reality on the ground.

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

Undoubtedly.

The so-called Malmedy massacre on December 17, 1944 - in which at least 84 American POWs who had surrendered during the Battle of the Bulge were killed by the Waffen-SS - led to many U.S. Army combat units adopting an unofficial policy of summarily executing SS members when captured. In some case this was extended to regular Wehrmacht soldiers, most notably in the Chenogne massacre on January 1, 1945.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, Israel does create a humanitarian catastrophe in violation of international law right now.

That being said, it is preferable to conduct weeks, possibly months, of urban warfare in Gaza City without having civilians in the streets.

The lighter shade of grey. Maybe.

That's for future historians to decide, based on whether the ultimate outcome wil be one where the benefits outweigh the downsides.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Two pictures taken from German media tonight, depicting the insanity of our times...


Passengers lying down in front of Olaf Scholz' air force plane at Tel Aviv airport after it had to evacuated (incl. the Chancellor) following Hamas rocket attacks.




Pro-Palestinian riots taking place in Berlin-Neukölln after the news of the Gaza hospital attack broke, police water cannons in action:

[Middle-aged Europe]

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1714580447986958748