Israel-Gaza war

[NOVA Green]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

All Arab-Israelis can vote in Israeli elections, and all Palestinian residents of Judea and Samaria can vote in Palestinian Authority elections. The alternative would be for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria -- do you want Israel to do that?

Why don't you answer my question?

--> "How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?"

None who are not citizens, of course. But that's an irrelevant question, just like asking "What % of Mexicans in Mexico can vote in American elections?"

The United States is not occupying Mexico as far as I am aware.

Okay, let me re-frame this discussion. Are you advocating that Israeli annex the West Bank, and grant citizenship to all Palestinians there?

Israel can either (1.) annex the West Bank and grant citizenship to Palestinians there or (2.) leave the West Bank

Do you understand that the Palestinians and Arab governments would violently object to 1, and that as today demonstrates 2 is not feasible?

Option 3. Jordan gets the West Bank, or at least most of it.

You know that's not a bad idea at all in terms of security guarantees plus some form of independent Palestinian population in a country which all ready has a huge % of refugees from the various Arab-Israeli Wars...

Still this presumes:

1.) Jordan wants to absorb a relatively impoverished West Bank population

2.) Palestinians living in the West Bank want to be absorbed into the Jordanian monarchy

Naturally this does not address the status of Gaza with the massive refugee camps that grew into large densly populated cities, so difficult to see how this all works out there.

Israel's invasion of South Lebanon in the early '80s was successful at rooting out the PLO militants from the refugee camps in the region, but it also helped spawn the rise of Hizbullah as a political-military formation.

Israeli author Amos Oz wrote The Slopes of Lebanon, which directly tackled some of the thorny issues involved with occupying slices of neighbors territory to create defensive buffers, which became influential within the Israeli Peace Movement towards the late '80s when the 1st Intifada starts kicking off.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Not to derail a fascinating thread about whether Palestinians should be able to vote in Israeli elections, but does anyone know where I can find updates on the ongoing war?

These comments are getting really annoying, far more annoying than anything you are responding to. The Palestinian POV, and everything that comes with it, is part of this conflict, idk what you guys want. Maybe start a thread where you can circle-jerk in peace I guess?

Or go to a real news source?

[oldtimer]

Not to derail a fascinating thread about whether Palestinians should be able to vote in Israeli elections, but does anyone know where I can find updates on the ongoing war?

After 23 years of continuous war, no one is winning at the moment but here is the score:

Israel has gradually annexed part of the West Bank, it's typically under missile attack, terrorist attacks, it periodically invades Gaza and bombs Syria, and it lost a battle in South Lebanon.

The Palestinians on the other hand are still multiplying faster inspite of sieges and becoming better and more equiped fighters, they no longer throw just rocks.

Both have become more bitter and more ruthless nationalist religious right wing as the war goes on and on, due to endless militarization of life.

[NOVA Green]

Meanwhile in Iran, it doesn't look like the population are taking to the streets in massive demos against the "Zionist" regime in Israel:

In Tehran, the Revolutionary Guards staged a celebration bringing out a few hundred of government supporters in Palestine Square on Saturday to set off fireworks after Hamas’s attack on Israel. Many Iranians took to social media to condemn Hamas’s attacks and violence in Israel.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/07/world/israel-gaza-attack

[oldtimer]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

All Arab-Israelis can vote in Israeli elections, and all Palestinian residents of Judea and Samaria can vote in Palestinian Authority elections. The alternative would be for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria -- do you want Israel to do that?

Why don't you answer my question?

--> "How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?"

None who are not citizens, of course. But that's an irrelevant question, just like asking "What % of Mexicans in Mexico can vote in American elections?"

The United States is not occupying Mexico as far as I am aware.

Okay, let me re-frame this discussion. Are you advocating that Israeli annex the West Bank, and grant citizenship to all Palestinians there?

Israel can either (1.) annex the West Bank and grant citizenship to Palestinians there or (2.) leave the West Bank

Do you understand that the Palestinians and Arab governments would violently object to 1, and that as today demonstrates 2 is not feasible?

Option 3. Jordan gets the West Bank, or at least most of it.

You know that's not a bad idea at all in terms of security guarantees plus some form of independent Palestinian population in a country which all ready has a huge % of refugees from the various Arab-Israeli Wars...

Still this presumes:

1.) Jordan wants to absorb a relatively impoverished West Bank population

2.) Palestinians living in the West Bank want to be absorbed into the Jordanian monarchy

Naturally this does not address the status of Gaza with the massive refugee camps that grew into large densly populated cities, so difficult to see how this all works out there.

Israel's invasion of South Lebanon in the early '80s was successful at rooting out the PLO militants from the refugee camps in the region, but it also helped spawn the rise of Hizbullah as a political-military formation.

Israeli author Amos Oz wrote The Slopes of Lebanon, which directly tackled some of the thorny issues involved with occupying slices of neighbors territory to create defensive buffers, which became influential within the Israeli Peace Movement towards the late '80s when the 1st Intifada starts kicking off.

All very fascinating, but does anyone have an Option 4 ?

[ugabug]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1710757415388414307?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7C...
So, despite hearing that she was supposedly an Israeli soldier she was actually only a tourist.

[kwabbit]

Not to derail a fascinating thread about whether Palestinians should be able to vote in Israeli elections, but does anyone know where I can find updates on the ongoing war?

These comments are getting really annoying, far more annoying than anything you are responding to. The Palestinian POV, and everything that comes with it, is part of this conflict, idk what you guys want. Maybe start a thread where you can circle-jerk in peace I guess?

To most of us this subject has been litigated enough and we might want actual details on the new conflict. No service is being provided to anyone here by incessantly pointing out the Palestinian POV, nor the Israeli one for that matter. Anyone posting on this forum knows enough and some of us wants news/updates.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Not to derail a fascinating thread about whether Palestinians should be able to vote in Israeli elections, but does anyone know where I can find updates on the ongoing war?

These comments are getting really annoying, far more annoying than anything you are responding to. The Palestinian POV, and everything that comes with it, is part of this conflict, idk what you guys want. Maybe start a thread where you can circle-jerk in peace I guess?

To most of us this subject has been litigated enough and we might want actual details on the new conflict. No service is being provided to anyone here by incessantly pointing out the Palestinian POV, nor the Israeli one for that matter. Anyone posting on this forum knows enough and some of us wants news/updates.

Then, as I suggested in my edited post, go to a real news source? But the fact is that 'not presenting the Palestinian view' in this thread just leaves the 10 other Warhawks calling for Gaza to be 'glassed' to go off so it's a disingenuous suggestion.

[Sestak]

Not to derail a fascinating thread about whether Palestinians should be able to vote in Israeli elections, but does anyone know where I can find updates on the ongoing war?

These comments are getting really annoying, far more annoying than anything you are responding to. The Palestinian POV, and everything that comes with it, is part of this conflict, idk what you guys want. Maybe start a thread where you can circle-jerk in peace I guess?

Or go to a real news source?

Oh ffs.

This is a thread documenting a current event. The point of the discussion here is to discuss and try to keep up to date on what is happening right now, and to have discussion pertaining directly to that.

The back-and forth quote pyramid arguments that have been happening in this thread are identical to arguments that have been made and fully drawn out tens of times on this forum alone -  not to mention millions of times on literally every space on the Internet. None of it is new or even remotely informed by what is currently happening; it is simply rehashing arguments that literally everyone has already seen before.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

Not to derail a fascinating thread about whether Palestinians should be able to vote in Israeli elections, but does anyone know where I can find updates on the ongoing war?

These comments are getting really annoying, far more annoying than anything you are responding to. The Palestinian POV, and everything that comes with it, is part of this conflict, idk what you guys want. Maybe start a thread where you can circle-jerk in peace I guess?

Or go to a real news source?

Oh ffs.

This is a thread documenting a current event. The point of the discussion here is to discuss and try to keep up to date on what is happening right now, and to have discussion pertaining directly to that.

The back-and forth quote pyramid arguments that have been happening in this thread are identical to arguments that have been made and fully drawn out tens of times on this forum alone -  not to mention millions of times on literally every space on the Internet. None of it is new or even remotely informed by what is currently happening; it is simply rehashing arguments that literally everyone has already seen before.

And your argument is also not new. It's been repeated in every thread on a common point of contention on Atlas ad nauseam. Your point?

It's literally human nature. And putting that aside, it's clear that only one POV is being criticized and asked to silence themselves in the way above.

[Angel of Death]

Yes, back in the 1980s Israel began offering citizenship to Palestinians resident in East Jerusalem. Only a tiny fraction - I believe around 5% - have taken them up on the offer.

People need to stop repeating this misleading claim. There has never been a blanket citizenship offer to East-Jerusalem Palestinians. They need to apply for it and fulfill certain conditions, which is not the same thing as an "offer".

[OSR stands with Israel]

Also funny how the whole sovereign state thing applies to Jews but not Sikhs in OSRville.

This is such an disingenuous comparison

[Aurelius2]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

All Arab-Israelis can vote in Israeli elections, and all Palestinian residents of Judea and Samaria can vote in Palestinian Authority elections. The alternative would be for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria -- do you want Israel to do that?

Why don't you answer my question?

--> "How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?"

None who are not citizens, of course. But that's an irrelevant question, just like asking "What % of Mexicans in Mexico can vote in American elections?"

The United States is not occupying Mexico as far as I am aware.

Okay, let me re-frame this discussion. Are you advocating that Israeli annex the West Bank, and grant citizenship to all Palestinians there?

Israel can either (1.) annex the West Bank and grant citizenship to Palestinians there or (2.) leave the West Bank

Do you understand that the Palestinians and Arab governments would violently object to 1, and that as today demonstrates 2 is not feasible?

Option 3. Jordan gets the West Bank, or at least most of it.

You know that's not a bad idea at all in terms of security guarantees plus some form of independent Palestinian population in a country which all ready has a huge % of refugees from the various Arab-Israeli Wars...

Still this presumes:

1.) Jordan wants to absorb a relatively impoverished West Bank population

2.) Palestinians living in the West Bank want to be absorbed into the Jordanian monarchy

Naturally this does not address the status of Gaza with the massive refugee camps that grew into large densly populated cities, so difficult to see how this all works out there.

Israel's invasion of South Lebanon in the early '80s was successful at rooting out the PLO militants from the refugee camps in the region, but it also helped spawn the rise of Hizbullah as a political-military formation.

Israeli author Amos Oz wrote The Slopes of Lebanon, which directly tackled some of the thorny issues involved with occupying slices of neighbors territory to create defensive buffers, which became influential within the Israeli Peace Movement towards the late '80s when the 1st Intifada starts kicking off.

All very fascinating, but does anyone have an Option 4 ?

We aren't allowed to discuss all options on this forum, so I will ignore Gaza and simply say that Israel waits 20-30 years to allow its demographic majority to continue to grow and then annexes the West Bank.

This is basically my dream-world scenario; of course, we don't live in dream-world and I expect things would get very violent in reality.

[Progressive Pessimist]

Not sure if the attacks or this thread are more tragic...I mean...jeez...

[Aurelius2]

Not sure if the attacks or this thread are more tragic...I mean...jeez...

Oh come on.

[Former President tack50]

It's fascinating to me how people will talk about whether Israel is a democracy or not and then in the same breath talk about how Hamas is the democratic choice of the people of Gaza. Hamas won an election in 2006, hosted a coup, severed Gaza off from the rest of the Palestinian Authority, rejected the idea of holding another election or reuniting with the West Bank, and has ignored or worked to sidetrack any peace negotiations held by the actual Palestinian government in Ramallah ever since. But sure, Hamas' Gaza is a democracy because they won a vote 17 years ago and have installed a regime of autarky and starvation and made sure no one could vote them out over it ever since.

It's wild to me that so many people in this thread are treating Hamas, rather than Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas, as the legitimate face of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have a leader and they have a government and it wants no part in this stupid war! This is on Hamas.

Following from this, I wonder if people should not consider "Palestine" a single entity anymore, but rather two: the West Bank ran by Fatah and a de facto Republic of Gaza ran by Hamas. Kinda like the PRC vs Taiwan situation (and so instead of say, a two state solution, it'd be a three state solution)

Personally I think that a state with discontiguous parts like that is doomed to separate and Palestine isn't even the first example! (East and West Pakistan say hi)

[Progressive Pessimist]

Not sure if the attacks or this thread are more tragic...I mean...jeez...

Oh come on.

Obviously its the attacks, but this thread was very depressing to read through as well.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

Yeah. Why would that be relevant?

You're American.

Yep. And I am now using the term Judea and Samaria, just as many Republican politicians do.

Cool. I can't wait till we get Pelosi and Biden to call for Israel to withdraw from the Sanjaks of Qudus and Ghazza

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

We aren't allowed to discuss all options on this forum, so I will ignore Gaza and simply say that Israel waits 20-30 years to allow its demographic majority to continue to grow and then annexes the West Bank.

So outright ethnic cleansing is what you want? Well, in that case, the Palestinians are COMPLETELY justified in using violence to defend their land in the West Bank from Israeli colonization.

[PSOL]

Yes, back in the 1980s Israel began offering citizenship to Palestinians resident in East Jerusalem. Only a tiny fraction - I believe around 5% - have taken them up on the offer.

People need to stop repeating this misleading claim. There has never been a blanket citizenship offer to East-Jerusalem Palestinians. They need to apply for it and fulfill certain conditions, which is not the same thing as an "offer".

Lying to westerners is an age old Israeli tactic

Not to derail a fascinating thread about whether Palestinians should be able to vote in Israeli elections, but does anyone know where I can find updates on the ongoing war?

After 23 years of continuous war, no one is winning at the moment but here is the score:

Israel has gradually annexed part of the West Bank, it's typically under missile attack, terrorist attacks, it periodically invades Gaza and bombs Syria, and it lost a battle in South Lebanon.

The Palestinians on the other hand are still multiplying faster inspite of sieges and becoming better and more equiped fighters, they no longer throw just rocks.

Both have become more bitter and more ruthless nationalist religious right wing as the war goes on and on, due to endless militarization of life.

Lions Den are secular nationalists and the DFLP/PFLP are communists. Palestinian rebels usually reflect the whole beliefs of the diverse people within it.

Palestine has for many years have had an indigenous weapons manufacturing industry based on small arms and explosives, even with most equipment being imported in elsewhere.

Israel at some point de-emphasized its shining jewel of an army in favor of airstrikes, perhaps the worst decision it has ever made. Meanwhile this is the first war where the Palestinians have fully embraced drone warfare to equalize the score.

It's fascinating to me how people will talk about whether Israel is a democracy or not and then in the same breath talk about how Hamas is the democratic choice of the people of Gaza. Hamas won an election in 2006, hosted a coup, severed Gaza off from the rest of the Palestinian Authority, rejected the idea of holding another election or reuniting with the West Bank, and has ignored or worked to sidetrack any peace negotiations held by the actual Palestinian government in Ramallah ever since. But sure, Hamas' Gaza is a democracy because they won a vote 17 years ago and have installed a regime of autarky and starvation and made sure no one could vote them out over it ever since.

It's wild to me that so many people in this thread are treating Hamas, rather than Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas, as the legitimate face of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have a leader and they have a government and it wants no part in this stupid war! This is on Hamas.

Following from this, I wonder if people should not consider "Palestine" a single entity anymore, but rather two: the West Bank ran by Fatah and a de facto Republic of Gaza ran by Hamas. Kinda like the PRC vs Taiwan situation (and so instead of say, a two state solution, it'd be a three state solution)

Personally I think that a state with discontiguous parts like that is doomed to separate and Palestine isn't even the first example! (East and West Pakistan say hi)

Fatah every few months is in a crisis where it may split. It’s one unifying aspect is receiving UN money that’s been cut dry.

[oldtimer]

Not sure if the attacks or this thread are more tragic...I mean...jeez...

We should create a special private thread specifically to allow venting and fighting between the commentators, appropriately named "The War Thread".

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Separately, I think the 24 divisions number is misleading. Judea and Samaria have a far larger border with Israel and Israel actually controls the region (and if it didn't, we would probably be seeing this attack also emerge from there), so of course more troops will be located in Judea and Samaria. The question is not why 24 divisions were in Judea and Samaria, but why Israeli troops along the border were taken by surprise and why Hamas was able to make a breach in the first place.

Go to hell.

[Sestak]

It's literally human nature. And putting that aside, it's clear that only one POV is being criticized and asked to silence themselves in the way above.

I mean I think people are asking Haley/Ryan etc. to get off this topic as well.

Look, if you want to give us a Palestinian perspective like you say, feel free to go ahead and do it. Tell us about what’s happening on the ground in Gaza. How are people anticipating an Israeli offensive? How much control of the situation does Hamas itself even have? What all is going on internally? What is the Palestinian Authority’s reaction to this? Posting stuff like this might be objectionable to some people, but it is fundamentally germane to the topic in a way that squabbling about a cassus belli simply is not.

[NOVA Green]

So live on CNN looks like Israeli missile defense systems have moved closer to Gaza and are intercepting most of the incoming rockets.

Still, pretty clear that Iron Dome is not 100% effective when it comes to intercepting drone swarms to distract Israeli air defense systems from incoming rockets.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The Brandenburg Gate in Berlin tonight.

Odd déjà vu... it used to be Blue-Yellow colour scheme back in February of 2022.