11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[Person Man]

Do you consider yourself a parent after you have sex?

[Person Man]

Or: innocent child allowed to live their life thanks to Ohio law.

Are you willing to pay more tax to support that child, since an 11 year old mother obviously cannot?

By this logic we shouldn't have any laws at all.

Or only laws we can afford?

[Person Man]

And if a stay is not issued, would that be the first court to "overturn" Roe v. Wade? Even if temporarily?

[Person Man]

Are you seriously telling me you would force your 11 year old daughter to carry a baby to term?

Yes. Some of us have morals.

That's what fundamentalist Muslims in Podunk Africa would say to justify female genital mutilation.

You people are no less barbaric than they are.

Murdering babies is barbaric.

How about murdering eleven-year-olds?

No one is advocating that.

There's a really easy solution to this - stop considering fetuses (and/or earlier stages) that aren't far along enough to have any chance of surviving outside the womb to be "babies." That's a personal, conscious choice you've made and think that everyone else should be bound by.

Why are they not babies?

1) We don't have funerals when a girlfriend gets knocked up, because premarital sex is OK but somehow contraception isn't. Go figure. Still, she bleeds a little bit and people cry on the phone to me but are fine after a couple days. I took this example about this LDS couple who hung out with me in High School in Wyoming. I hung out with everyone back then. I just wanted friends and there were pretty bad nerd bullies at LVHS in my year, so I literally went to whatever place did "cool" teen stuff. One of those instances made the assistant principal tell my parents that I should go to community college for a year because he though "I wasn't responsible enough for real college". Community college sucks.

2) How many people like even those above talk about how they are going to be a mom or a dad 30 minutes after sex unless they are actually trying to get knocked up or to knock someone up?

3) Even very conservative people will say "keep IT!" and not "keep them!"

4)

[Person Man]

Are you seriously telling me you would force your 11 year old daughter to carry a baby to term?

Yes. Some of us have morals.

That's what fundamentalist Muslims in Podunk Africa would say to justify female genital mutilation.

You people are no less barbaric than they are.

Murdering babies is barbaric.

How about murdering eleven-year-olds?

No one is advocating that.

There's a really easy solution to this - stop considering fetuses (and/or earlier stages) that aren't far along enough to have any chance of surviving outside the womb to be "babies." That's a personal, conscious choice you've made and think that everyone else should be bound by.

Why are they not babies?

1) We don't have funerals when a girlfriend gets knocked up, because premarital sex is OK but somehow contraception isn't. Go figure. Still, she bleeds a little bit and people cry on the phone to me but are fine after a couple days. I took this example about this LDS couple who hung out with me in High School in Wyoming. I hung out with everyone back then. I just wanted friends and there were pretty bad nerd bullies at LVHS in my year, so I literally went to whatever place did "cool" teen stuff. One of those instances made the assistant principal tell my parents that I should go to community college for a year because he though "I wasn't responsible enough for real college". Community college sucks.

2) How many people like even those above talk about how they are going to be a mom or a dad 30 minutes after sex unless they are actually trying to get knocked up or to knock someone up?

3) Even very conservative people will say "keep IT!" and not "keep them!"

4)

I don't get it.  What are you trying to say?

If people don't won't to get pregnant and don't want an abortion and don't use birth control, they shouldn't be having sex.

Even very conservative people still see the fetus as an object.

[Person Man]

Ohio also wants to ban many forms of birth control, including The Pill.

https://twitter.com/innovationohio/status/1126096661124657152

Do people not realize how illogical it is to be against abortion and against birth control at the same time? how dumb can you be.

The pill can cause abortion.  I am not against forms of birth control that can only work before fertilization, but, since life begins at fertilization, it is unacceptable for a form of "contraception" to stop an already fertilized life from implanting.  I don't know that I would call it murder, since that wasn't the main intent, but perhaps manslaughter (if people really understood that the pill IS sometimes an abortion).

A fertilized egg is a baby? what's next, every sperm is sacred?

I, for one, believe that life begins at arousal.

So to kill the romantic mood is like killing an unborn life?

Somebody ought to do something with this.

As if we were already feeling bad enough when we lost our chance to score.

[Person Man]

If people don't won't to get pregnant and don't want an abortion and don't use birth control, they shouldn't be having sex.

I agree. That's precisely what most of us argue. Was this supposed to be some kind of gotcha?

Condoning pedophilia is not normal. Maybe in your neck of the woods.

https://www.iowansforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/straw-man-meme.jpg

Believing that an unborn baby shouldn't be killed because of a crime he didn't commit doesn't mean you're glad said crime took place, nor does it mean you think it should happen more often.

There is no strawman, Mr. Debater. An 11 year old girl was actually raped and people on here are really advocating that The United States Government should compound that injustice and trauma by forcing her to give birth as the result of the trauma caused to her by a pedophile. That's as real as it gets, so again not a strawman.

Why do you assume giving birth would be traumatic and terminating her baby wouldn't be?

He's not assuming anything.

He wants her and her family to decide what to do based on what wouldn't be traumatic for her.

You want to deprive them of any choice at all.

Please. The operating assumption in this entire conversation on the "pro-choice" side is that giving birth for a girl who's been raped would be as traumatic as the rape itself and that aborting her child would be like trimming a toenail. You even said you'd go "scorched earth" on your daughters' uterus.

Well it could be. The level of empathy and concern that religious conservatives have for certain things just makes them appear like they are from another species or another planet. I know nothing I can say will end their obsessions but imagine if lizard people came from a planet around Tau Ceti and demanded , at gun(or whatever they use)point and told you to rearrange their lives around what they think is important. 90% of the population can sympathize but only 35 to 50% of the population can empathize with fetuses and their families. At a certain point, you could do things to make there be very few or at least a lot fewer abortions without destroying the credibility of the government.

[Person Man]

Can we please ban anybody who actually believes the Government should force a child to have a child because she was raped by a pedophile. How is this even a credible opinion to hold in the year 2019?

It's a credible opinion because the circumstances of a woman's pregnancy does not affect the humanity of the unborn child.  That unborn child who is the product of this twisted rape is no less human than you or I were at that point in human development.

This 11 year old child either knows that reality right now, or will figure it out as she grows older.  It will hit her one day, and the effect it will have on her on that day is dependent, at least in part, on the decisions she makes regarding life and death for that unborn child.

If people are honest, they can't argue with what I just said. 

That may not be necessary, having died during childbirth.

That would be highly unlikely today in America.

If you're an 11-years old the risk is significant, whether it's in America or some sub-Saharan poverty-ridden backwater, maybe to a diffrent degree but still. And if she were to survive, the risk of permanent disability that would in many cases essentially mean a delayed death sentence is probably even higher. Even if the chances were 50-50 or much less, it's still mind-blowingly cruel to subject the girl to that.

It's interesting some people seems to subscribe to the notion of the life beginning at conception and ending at birth, because this is essentially what the whole matter boils down to, whether they realize this or, more likely, just don't want to leave their comfy bubble of dogma. Maybe you guys should sit down and try to see the actual human factor here, not just some abstract ideological stuff.

They do see the human factor it’s just that they feel differently than we do. They are literally hardwired in a way that we are not.

[Person Man]

Can we please ban anybody who actually believes the Government should force a child to have a child because she was raped by a pedophile. How is this even a credible opinion to hold in the year 2019?

It's a credible opinion because the circumstances of a woman's pregnancy does not affect the humanity of the unborn child.  That unborn child who is the product of this twisted rape is no less human than you or I were at that point in human development.

This 11 year old child either knows that reality right now, or will figure it out as she grows older.  It will hit her one day, and the effect it will have on her on that day is dependent, at least in part, on the decisions she makes regarding life and death for that unborn child.

If people are honest, they can't argue with what I just said. 

That may not be necessary, having died during childbirth.

That would be highly unlikely today in America.

If you're an 11-years old the risk is significant, whether it's in America or some sub-Saharan poverty-ridden backwater, maybe to a diffrent degree but still. And if she were to survive, the risk of permanent disability that would in many cases essentially mean a delayed death sentence is probably even higher. Even if the chances were 50-50 or much less, it's still mind-blowingly cruel to subject the girl to that.

It's interesting some people seems to subscribe to the notion of the life beginning at conception and ending at birth, because this is essentially what the whole matter boils down to, whether they realize this or, more likely, just don't want to leave their comfy bubble of dogma. Maybe you guys should sit down and try to see the actual human factor here, not just some abstract ideological stuff.

You could at least cite former Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) as the formulator of the highlighted phrase, lol.

I've been face to face with the "human factor", and I'm not alone.  In my personal life, I have had at least one grandchild aborted (that I know of).  My son and his girlfriend had always known that my wife and I would do whatever was needed for grandchildren, even if that involved raising the child ourselves, at our own expense.  No questions asked.  As both he and his girlfriend were rather dysfunctional at that time, we made it clear that we would not be dogging them for money; our only concern would be that we would have, through adoption or permanent guardianship, total authority in raising the child.  I was not going to willingly raise a child at the direction of people who were out to lunch.  (I was prepared to compromise as much as necessary for a child's sake, however.)

I know many Christians who are of the same mind, not just in advocacy, but in fact.  The not wanting to adopt or be bothered with children once they're born is, quite frankly, more typical of the pro-choice crowd, many of whom pontificate as to the needs of children, but find them a pain in the rear end when they have to deal with them.  They're the kind of secular grandparents who like visits from grandkids, but rejoice that they "go home".  Now I get that, but the idea that pro-life folks don't put their money and resources where their mouths are is just ridiculous.

What Christians DO view as important is encouraging childbirth within the context of marriage and family.  This is disrespected and blown off by many here, but it is a concept that is indispensable to the stability of a modern society.  Christians are right to question a welfare system that, however unintentionally, encourages out-of-wedlock births and discourages marriage for economic reasons.  Christians also contribute to the funding of any number of crisis pregnancy centers that provide all sorts of assistance for persons beset with untimely pregnancies.

Of course, the Barney Frank Throwaway Line is mostly horse manure.  How many people here would be OK in turning America into a pro-life Sweden; a Social Democracy where abortion is not legal, but there are the sort of cradle-to-grave benefits for folks that the Swedes have?  I'm for it; how about you?  Would you be OK with a Pro-Life Social Democratic America, where children are "taken care of"?  Where "life doesn't end at birth"?  If abolition of the Death Penalty was thrown in, would you be all in with Fuzzy Bear's Pro-Life Welfare State?  I'll even throw in the elimination of right-to-work laws; who's with me?

I would be OK with it if it included life beginning at implantation, not conception. And no death penalty except for war crimes. In fact, all of this would be essential to have a personhood law based more on responsibility rather than punishing people and trying to take them over.

[Person Man]

This thread is an abortion, and Fuzzy Bear is now administering the procedure.

The issue of where human life begins won't go away. 

What about the sanctity of the life of this thread? Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[Person Man]

Ohio also wants to ban many forms of birth control, including The Pill.

https://twitter.com/innovationohio/status/1126096661124657152

Do people not realize how illogical it is to be against abortion and against birth control at the same time? how dumb can you be.

The pill can cause abortion.  I am not against forms of birth control that can only work before fertilization, but, since life begins at fertilization, it is unacceptable for a form of "contraception" to stop an already fertilized life from implanting.  I don't know that I would call it murder, since that wasn't the main intent, but perhaps manslaughter (if people really understood that the pill IS sometimes an abortion).

That is a 19th century definition of abortion and you know it. This involves you cramming your religious views down the throats of others. To say a barely fertilized egg is a baby in order to get rate of birth control is the product either of ignorance or chronic incel status. Frankly, I guess both

Some views need to be crammed down other people's throats.  You and I have blue avatars, in reference to a party that forced its anti-slavery views on those who had different values than them.

How did that work out?

[Person Man]

This sucks. Everyone who participated in this abortion has had their autism level go up by 1!💯

[Person Man]

This sucks. Everyone who participated in this abortion has had their autism level go up by 1!💯

What's the equivalent of that in N of vaccines?    

That's actually a good question.
I think it's as many as it takes to paralyze you from the waist down.

[Person Man]

The ironic thing is that Antiabortion people keep telling themselves they just think pro-choice people are misguided and that pro-choice people think they are evil.

[Person Man]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

Well there’s a way for that not to happen.

[Person Man]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

[sarc]
[/sarc]

[Person Man]

I'm claiming the number of parents wanting to adopt a baby - of any race - are far greater than the number available for adoption in this country.

It would be shorter to just say you don't really know what you're talking about.

What is inaccurate?

20 k unrelated domestic infant adoptions per year vs. hundreds of thousands currently seeking to adopt, and millions more who would be willing to.

Were there more successful adoptions per capita when abortion was illegal?

[Person Man]

I'm claiming the number of parents wanting to adopt a baby - of any race - are far greater than the number available for adoption in this country.

It would be shorter to just say you don't really know what you're talking about.

What is inaccurate?

20 k unrelated domestic infant adoptions per year vs. hundreds of thousands currently seeking to adopt, and millions more who would be willing to.

Were there more successful adoptions per capita when abortion was illegal?

Numbers have fallen since 1970 when they peaked but not drastically. Prior to 1950, institutions were more popular and adoptions rare. But while there's been Roe v Wade there has also been a fall in children per couple anyway and an increase in fertility.

Factory farming children as a commodity through banning abortions to meet the 'demand' for adoptions is quite frankly, f-cking creepy.

Edit: Stats dump https://pages.uoregon.edu/adoption/archive/MazaAT.htm.

Adoptions now at about 135k. Fertility rate down from 2.5 to 1.9 in the same period. So the fall, relatively, is broadly the same.

So fertility is down 30% but abortions are down 50% per capita.

[Person Man]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

Then what is the point of your sarcasm about it being "heartwarming" that such a child would be given the chance to live?

There's no guarantee that such a child would live after birth. Who is to say that the mother wouldn't harm the baby out of rage over being forced to give birth to it or just subject it to years and years of abuse?

There are never any guarantees.  But why have such a low opinion of a sexual assault survivor as to assume that is all they are capable of?
If she doesn't feel able to raise the child herself, there are many people who would gladly give the child a loving home.

Lots of children every year age out of foster care never having been adopted. Let’s not pretend this isn’t the case.

If a birth parent is seeking adoptive parents to take an infant, the foster care system isn't relevant.  In theory the primary goal of the foster care system is family reunification.  A child can be in the system for years before they are eligible for adoption.

The point is simply that not all children up for adoption get adopted, let alone to a loving, caring home. Stop being obtuse.

I'm being obtuse for pointing out that something wouldn't apply in this situation?  k.

Are you claiming every baby who goes up for adoption is swiftly adopted into a loving home? Because my wife and I went to a meeting at an adoption agency, and half of the couples straight up left the meeting when they were informed the available babies were almost certain to be black.

Oh good God, figs. That must have been so disheartening. I'm so sorry.

Best of luck in you and your wife's apparent attempts to adopt!

This was a while back, when we were worried we were having fertility problems. That turned out to be hilariously not the case, and we're now expecting our fourth.

Awesome and congratulations! As you well know though, after to you stop playing man-to-man and suddenly you're on zone defense.

Nevertheless, as a progressive, I must say how disappointed I am that you haven't kept up by having a few abortions. Or hopefully you did so in between the for kids? After all, As anti-abortion types no, we progressives love love love love love nothing more then women having abortions. Ranks right up there with Sunshine flowers and puppies on things that make us whimsical.

Really man, step it up with the fetus vacuums!

Yeah, for being allegedly pro-infanticide, I haven't even attempted it once.

WHAT?!?!? Horrors!

Hang that red Avatar in shame and make with a baby killing toot sweet. And you call yourself a progressive?

You really shouldn't make him just jump into it like that or else he might become addicted to abortions. He really needs to enjoy each abortion. Try different ways. I think you really shouldn't have "the usual" until you have had like 5 or 6 different kinds. He might be a miso guy or maybe he would enjoy a traditional Fisherman's knuckle scrape. You never know until you try.

[Person Man]

Personhood without any exceptions has the support of 10-15% of American RVs.
http://pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
Sometimes as high as 20% in a particularly conservative sample but it can dip into the single digits with a particularly liberal sample.

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?  
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

Criminal law requires that the elements of each crime be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt. With any homicide law, that is a where an element of the law is the perpetrator causes the death of a person, perhaps there is a preponderance of the evidence or even clear and convincing evidence that abortion causes the death of a person but it does not satisfy that fact to beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact that we are having this "debate" proves that there are reasonable doubts. Therefore, in an organic sense, abortion is not criminal homicide in any American criminal justice jurisprudence. For aborting a fetus to be killing a person, it must be bootstrapped or hard coded in to the law.
Abortion might be something "like murder" or it could be something else that is very uncharacteristic, perhaps for sexual or drug reasons, but it isn't "murder" because there is no universally accepted right for a fetus to not be aborted let alone because aborting a fetus is aa element of the set of acts that are causing the death of a person.

[Person Man]

Do you think with many poor countries legalizing abortion and some countries outlawing it that this might slow down the migrations that might be caused by oppression and then ensuing gender imbalances?

How will our country deal with women leaving these sh**thole states and leaving behind these men who will then have trouble finding wives?

[Person Man]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

People are freaking out because I suggested a *born* child could be something other to a rape victim than a literal pile of crap.

And anyway fetuses are human.  As in, they have humanity. Homo sapiens.  That is a fact. You want to make some claim about personhood in positive law, go ahead, that's not the same as humanity.

It's also completely irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be legal, as opposed to something that is merely discouraged or frowned upon.

I don't know what argument you are making here that would imply it is irrelevant. Unless you believe the law should not reflect standards of justice and morality that exist outside of current legal codes?

The foundational issue here is indeed what is discouraged in our society, and what is discouraged.  If something is illegal, but society as a whole doesn't care, institutions won't move to prevent it, pop culture will endorse it.  Eventually the law will be repealed or ignored or evaded. 

What is legal ought to be derived from what should be discouraged or encouraged, though not in a straightforward 1:1 fashion (many things rightly discouraged ought not be made illegal).  On the other hand I see a tendency in our contemporary society on the other hand to make an argument why something should be legal, and then claim because it is a legal right it's practice shouldn't be criticized.  This is backwards.

Nobody cared about abortion before the 1970s. Even conservative Protestants weren't bothered by it. It was something that only Catholic clergy concerned themselves with.

The only reason conservatives decided fetuses were people was that after a decade or so of mass-produced birth control pills, they couldn't handle that women could now go through their lives without ever giving birth to a child if that was their personal preference.

The idea that "abortion is murder" is some integral bedrock foundation of our society is ahistorical nonsense.

And as late as the 1970s, there was a lot of room for public dissent even within Catholic clergy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Drinan

Fetuses, especially until after a reasonable time after they should have been discovered, have no fundamental right to not be aborted. This can only be the case if it was that, with only a few exceptions, fetuses enjoyed that right in previous societies where the United States adopted their jurisprudence from. This doesn’t mean there aren’t better reasons why abortion shouldn’t be tolerated but this time one of them.

[Person Man]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Its not that they think its ok. Its that they don't think its murder. Just because someone causes the death of a "human" doesn't mean they committed murder. Most people who have ever lived in a Western society doesn't think abortion automatically is killing a person or that a fetus automatically has a right not to be aborted. That doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be illegal just because of that but I am not impressed by "abortion is murder" unless you think any matter that has the potential the generate or has ever generate and consciousness is a person and that any killing of anyone is murder. Maybe you think killing anything under any circumstances is murder?

[Person Man]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Nice try, but the pro-choice side doesn't want to force women to have abortions. It goes both ways, if a woman wants to give birth, it's her conscious decision and even if said pregnancy would most likely kill her, we still have no right to overrule her.

Ideally abortions should be as rare as possible, and this is why we need to put emphasis on proper sex education and availability of anticonception. Something many in the "pro-life" crowd ironically rejects as well, even though it would reduce a number of abortions.

It appears that if you don't want there to be abortions, that you give people to choice to not need abortions. Radical natalism may not actually prevent many abortions or only would with a level of pressure only attainable with novel technology or only in conjunction with what pro-choice politicians and activists are already working on.

[Person Man]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

Sure, though the insistence by most abortion-is-murder types that the woman shouldn’t be punished gives the lie to the “belief”.

I think that both the woman seeking the abortion and the doctor should receive a punishment.

What about the father or anyone who didn't say anything or helped? Shouldn't the father have known that his "son" or "daughter" was in danger? What would you say if a 4 year kid shot himself while his dad was binge watching cartoons in the next room?