11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[Pouring Rain and Blairing Music]

This thread is a great example of why 99.99% of abortion-related discussions between people with differing views inevitably become FUBAR.

You called? Granted, I’ve already been here haha.

[Beet]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

Quit the theatrics. You knew it would be extremely controversial.

It honestly didn't occur to me and I still don't really understand why it is.

If you don't understand why a girl whose body was violated against her will having the government insert itself into what happens to her body against her will is not a double insult, I don't know what to say. To call the second violation an affirmation of life is a triple insult.

[7,052,770]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

Quit the theatrics. You knew it would be extremely controversial.

It honestly didn't occur to me and I still don't really understand why it is.

     

You've been posting here for over a decade and it never occurred to you that "abortion should be illegal even for preteen rape victims" would be a controversial statement? Yeah, I'm calling bullsh**t on that. That would be a controversial statement on a Republican-only forum.

[Figueira]

Horrifyingly, a lot of "moderates" in both parties support parental consent laws, which means that they believe that 11-year-old rape victims should be forced to give birth if their parents happen to have Shua-like views.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

Quit the theatrics. You knew it would be extremely controversial.

It honestly didn't occur to me and I still don't really understand why it is.

You've been posting here for over a decade and it never occurred to you that "abortion should be illegal even for preteen rape victims" would be a controversial statement? Yeah, I'm calling bullsh**t on that. That would be a controversial statement on a Republican-only forum.

The point I was making there wasn't even centrally about legality so it's a weird choice to focus on that post if the legality aspect is what you find shocking.

[DrScholl]

During the Bush era where Republicans in the House were pushing through anti-abortion bills I do not recall even the most pro-life members ever even suggesting that there be no exceptions. That's an extreme position.

[7,052,770]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

Quit the theatrics. You knew it would be extremely controversial.

It honestly didn't occur to me and I still don't really understand why it is.

You've been posting here for over a decade and it never occurred to you that "abortion should be illegal even for preteen rape victims" would be a controversial statement? Yeah, I'm calling bullsh**t on that. That would be a controversial statement on a Republican-only forum.

The point I was making there wasn't even centrally about legality so it's a weird choice to focus on that post if the legality aspect is what you find shocking.

Why? It's all interconnected. It's not like there are people who believe that fetuses are persons and abortion is murder, but that abortion should be legal anyway. With few exceptions (in a nation of 300,000,000, there are always exceptions), people who think that the preteen victim of violent crime should be legally allowed to have an abortion reject your argument. People who agree with your argument are the ones who think she shouldn't be allowed to have one.

Either way, all opinions related to abortion are inherently controversial. It is unbelievable that someone who's followed politics for so long and participated in discussion of abortion would claim to not grasp that fact.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

yeah I was claiming not to realize abortion was a controversial issue, that's exactly what I was talking about, not the fact that people said my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum

[Slander and/or Libel]

yeah I was claiming not to realize abortion was a controversial issue, that's exactly what I was talking about, not the fact that people said my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum

“Yeah, you’re eleven and you got raped violently, but look at the bright side: your rapist got you pregnant and now I’m forcing you to have his baby no matter what you want! Maybe the baby will even look like your rapist so you’ll have a constant reminder of the instrument of God’s blessing in your life!”

[7,052,770]

yeah I was claiming not to realize abortion was a controversial issue, that's exactly what I was talking about, not the fact that people said my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum

Are you just incapable of talking in good faith on a thread about abortion? First, you clutch pearls at the idea your post was "controversial" (your word originally, then I used it in a few rounds of back and forth with no immediate objection from you), and then when painted into a corner, suddenly you change it to "my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum" ?

Bad faith, Shua. Take the L. You exaggerated your post at 7:03:37 (central) for effect.

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

yeah I was claiming not to realize abortion was a controversial issue, that's exactly what I was talking about, not the fact that people said my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum

Are you just incapable of talking in good faith on a thread about abortion? First, you clutch pearls at the idea your post was "controversial" (your word originally, then I used it in a few rounds of back and forth with no immediate objection from you), and then when painted into a corner, suddenly you change it to "my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum" ?

Bad faith, Shua. Take the L. You exaggerated your post at 7:03:37 (central) for effect.

Good faith?  Who has shown any good faith in this thread discussing this issue with me?

Now you want us to pretend that people weren't going on and on about how disgusting a post of mine supposedly was?  Something you yourself engaged in?    This is a top-notch gaslighting attempt.  Well done.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

People are freaking out because I suggested a *born* child could be something other to a rape victim than a literal pile of crap.

And anyway fetuses are human.  As in, they have humanity. Homo sapiens.  That is a fact. You want to make some claim about personhood in positive law, go ahead, that's not the same as humanity.

[Fuzzy Bear]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

Quit the theatrics. You knew it would be extremely controversial.

So did I.  Bring it on.  The unborn children who are no less human than you or I, even though their biological father is a complete scumbag deserve people willing to take on the controversy, in the hopes that they won't be killed.  They are innocent life.

And abortion kills unborn children, inflicting real pain on them in the process.  Real pain.

[Fuzzy Bear]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

People are freaking out because I suggested a *born* child could be something other to a rape victim than a literal pile of crap.

And anyway fetuses are human.  As in, they have humanity. Homo sapiens.  That is a fact. You want to make some claim about personhood in positive law, go ahead, that's not the same as humanity.

Yes, they are freaking out.  Perhaps their miniscule consciences have actually been impacted, even if only for a nanosecond.

[Gass3268]

Hopefully the child is taken to a civilized state where she can receive proper medical care.

[Badger]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

Quit the theatrics. You knew it would be extremely controversial.

So did I.  Bring it on.  The unborn children who are no less human than you or I, even though their biological father is a complete scumbag deserve people willing to take on the controversy, in the hopes that they won't be killed.  They are innocent life.

And abortion kills unborn children, inflicting real pain on them in the process.  Real pain.

A zygote is in fact far less Human Than you or I. The issue isn't whether or not it is "alive", but whether or not it should be a citizen.

There are few if any legitimate medical professionals that buy into the political accusation of abortion causing pain 2 the 98 + percent of pregnancies occurring in the first trimester. You are literally out of factual bounds here.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

*Cue yeets being emitted*

[Gass3268]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

Quit the theatrics. You knew it would be extremely controversial.

So did I.  Bring it on.  The unborn children who are no less human than you or I, even though their biological father is a complete scumbag deserve people willing to take on the controversy, in the hopes that they won't be killed.  They are innocent life.

And abortion kills unborn children, inflicting real pain on them in the process.  Real pain.

A zygote is in fact far less Human Than you or I. The issue isn't whether or not it is "alive", but whether or not it should be a citizen.

There are few if any legitimate medical professionals that buy into the political accusation of abortion causing pain 2 the 98 + percent of pregnancies occurring in the first trimester. You are literally out of factual bounds here.

Don't let facts get in the way of his feelings. Also the whole idea of an embryo having a heartbeat at six weeks is a lie too. Pulsing tissues is not a heart.

“These bills present the idea that there’s something that looks like what you or a person on the street would call a baby – a thing that’s almost ready to go for a walk,” said Dr Jen Gunter, a gynecologist in Canada and the US who runs an influential blog. “In reality, you’re talking about something that’s millimeters in size and doesn’t look anything like that.”

That early in a pregnancy, Gunter said, an embryo does not have a heart – at least, not what we understand a human heart to be, with pumping tubes and ventricles. At six weeks, a human embryo throbs, but those tissues have not yet formed an organ, so the pulsing should not be confused with a heartbeat.

“When throbbing of some tissue begins, it’s not a heart,” said Dr Sara Imershein, a gynecologist and obstetrician in Falls Church, Virginia. “Really, we call it an embryo until about nine weeks from last menstrual period,” or roughly three weeks after the new laws prohibit termination of pregnancy.

'It's not a little child': gynecologists join the fight against six-week abortion bans

[Person Man]

Personhood without any exceptions has the support of 10-15% of American RVs.
http://pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
Sometimes as high as 20% in a particularly conservative sample but it can dip into the single digits with a particularly liberal sample.

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?  
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

Criminal law requires that the elements of each crime be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt. With any homicide law, that is a where an element of the law is the perpetrator causes the death of a person, perhaps there is a preponderance of the evidence or even clear and convincing evidence that abortion causes the death of a person but it does not satisfy that fact to beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact that we are having this "debate" proves that there are reasonable doubts. Therefore, in an organic sense, abortion is not criminal homicide in any American criminal justice jurisprudence. For aborting a fetus to be killing a person, it must be bootstrapped or hard coded in to the law.
Abortion might be something "like murder" or it could be something else that is very uncharacteristic, perhaps for sexual or drug reasons, but it isn't "murder" because there is no universally accepted right for a fetus to not be aborted let alone because aborting a fetus is aa element of the set of acts that are causing the death of a person.

[7,052,770]

yeah I was claiming not to realize abortion was a controversial issue, that's exactly what I was talking about, not the fact that people said my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum

Are you just incapable of talking in good faith on a thread about abortion? First, you clutch pearls at the idea your post was "controversial" (your word originally, then I used it in a few rounds of back and forth with no immediate objection from you), and then when painted into a corner, suddenly you change it to "my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum" ?

Bad faith, Shua. Take the L. You exaggerated your post at 7:03:37 (central) for effect.

Good faith?  Who has shown any good faith in this thread discussing this issue with me?

Now you want us to pretend that people weren't going on and on about how disgusting a post of mine supposedly was?  Something you yourself engaged in?    This is a top-notch gaslighting attempt.  Well done.

More bad faith. I never once "pretended that people weren't going on and on about how disgusting a post of mine supposedly was" or implied that or said anything remotely resembling that. As you previously knew but apparently forgot for this post, my issue was your pearl-clutching and "Well I declairrrr, I just had no idea my post was so controversial!!"

But you always knew it was controversial. Just a few posts up, even Fuzzy Bear agreed with me that it was controversial, even though he agrees with the content of it. Why you are fighting this so hard is beyond me. I've exaggerated here in my posts on this forum before, and I've gotten called out on it deservedly. And now I'm doing it to you.

ETA: Talk about gaslighting! My whole point is "of course your post was controversial, there's you way you thought it wasn't?" How in the world are you coming back with "you're saying people going on and on about how disgusting a post of mine supposedly was!!!!" ?? WTF is that? I'm saying people ARE going on and on about that because it WAS controversial! I mean JFC are you just distracted any not really reading my posts?

[7,052,770]

The unborn children who are no less human than you or I, even though their biological father is a complete scumbag deserve people willing to take on the controversy, in the hopes that they won't be killed.  They are innocent life.

And abortion kills unborn children, inflicting real pain on them in the process.  Real pain.

Well I don't agree with any of that (except for the part about the father being a scumbag). And neither millions and millions of other Americans. I thank God that I live in a country where your belief is not the law.

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

People are freaking out because I suggested a *born* child could be something other to a rape victim than a literal pile of crap.

And anyway fetuses are human.  As in, they have humanity. Homo sapiens.  That is a fact. You want to make some claim about personhood in positive law, go ahead, that's not the same as humanity.

It's also completely irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be legal, as opposed to something that is merely discouraged or frowned upon.

[Person Man]

Do you think with many poor countries legalizing abortion and some countries outlawing it that this might slow down the migrations that might be caused by oppression and then ensuing gender imbalances?

How will our country deal with women leaving these sh**thole states and leaving behind these men who will then have trouble finding wives?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

yeah I was claiming not to realize abortion was a controversial issue, that's exactly what I was talking about, not the fact that people said my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum

Are you just incapable of talking in good faith on a thread about abortion? First, you clutch pearls at the idea your post was "controversial" (your word originally, then I used it in a few rounds of back and forth with no immediate objection from you), and then when painted into a corner, suddenly you change it to "my specific post was the worst thing they ever read on the forum" ?

Bad faith, Shua. Take the L. You exaggerated your post at 7:03:37 (central) for effect.

Good faith?  Who has shown any good faith in this thread discussing this issue with me?

Now you want us to pretend that people weren't going on and on about how disgusting a post of mine supposedly was?  Something you yourself engaged in?    This is a top-notch gaslighting attempt.  Well done.

More bad faith. I never once "pretended that people weren't going on and on about how disgusting a post of mine supposedly was" or implied that or said anything remotely resembling that. As you previously knew but apparently forgot for this post, my issue was your pearl-clutching and "Well I declairrrr, I just had no idea my post was so controversial!!"

But you always knew it was controversial. Just a few posts up, even Fuzzy Bear agreed with me that it was controversial, even though he agrees with the content of it. Why you are fighting this so hard is beyond me. I've exaggerated here in my posts on this forum before, and I've gotten called out on it deservedly. And now I'm doing it to you.

ETA: Talk about gaslighting! My whole point is "of course your post was controversial, there's you way you thought it wasn't?" How in the world are you coming back with "you're saying people going on and on about how disgusting a post of mine supposedly was!!!!" ?? WTF is that? I'm saying people ARE going on and on about that because it WAS controversial! I mean JFC are you just distracted any not really reading my posts?

okay maybe misinterpreted as I'm having trouble seeing what post of mine you are talking about at any point, since there were two you had a problem with it seems.  You originally had a problem with the first one, but now it's the second one instead?

I knew the post (as in, the first one, that several people responded to) might be kinda controversial just due to the issue, so I tried to make it as measured as I could in that moment while still getting across what I wanted to say. I didn't expect the extent of the controversy!   

This is supposed to be a forum where we discuss politics, including how people approach politics, the psychology of politics, political rhetoric, differences in political values, etc, right?   Pointing out that making a statement gets a response much more negative than one expected falls within that.  It isn't "pearl clutching."