Israel-Gaza war

[Florida Man for Crime]

https://fixuptwitter.com/manniefabian/status/1725230439307128995

The IDF says it has uncovered a Hamas tunnel in the Shifa Hospital complex. It publishes a video showing the entrance.
Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian (@manniefabian)

[Florida Man for Crime]

https://vxtwitter.com/Faytuks/status/1725243222660710829

Faytuks News Δ (@Faytuks)
BREAKING: The US and its European allies are pushing a plan to deploy an international UN peacekeeping force in the Gaza Strip after the war, according to people familiar with the matter - Bloomberg

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-16/us-eu-back-un-force-in-postwar-gaza-adding-pressure-on-israel?srnd=premium-europe

[Florida Man for Crime]

https://vxtwitter.com/manniefabian/status/1726284025407451613
This video appears to be quite convincing of a drone flying into the tunnel entrance and showing that it is very clearly a large and significant tunnel.

The IDF and Shin Bet security agency release new footage showing part of Hamas’s tunnel network underneath Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital, where the terror group is believed to have a main command center.

Clips are published from two separate devices that were lowered into a tunnel entrance discovered by the IDF on Thursday in the Shifa complex.

The tunnel shaft had been located on the hospital grounds under a canopy, where IDF troops had also found a Hamas pickup truck with weapons in it, similar to those used by the terror group in the October 7 attacks.

The new videos show that the tunnel shaft has a winding staircase from around three meters deep, continuing down for another seven meters until it reaches part of the tunnel network. The tunnel continues for five meters, before turning to the right and continuing for another 50 meters.

At the end of the tunnel, the footage reveals a blast door with what the IDF says is a gunhole for Hamas to shoot through.

“This type of door is used by the Hamas terror organization to block the ability of our forces to enter the organization's headquarters and underground assets,” the IDF says.

“The findings prove beyond all doubt that buildings in the hospital complex are used as infrastructure for the Hamas terror organization, for terror activity. This is further proof of the cynical use that the Hamas terror organization makes of the residents of the Gaza Strip as a human shield for its murderous terror activities,” the IDF adds.

The IDF and Shin Bet say they are continuing to operate at Shifa to expose Hamas’s tunnel network in the area.

Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian (@manniefabian)

It certainly appears that this is what Israel is saying it is. Hopefully there will be more similar evidence in the coming days, weeks, and months. However, I for one do not hope that they send humans down in there just to try and prove a point to the doubters. Lives of Israeli soldiers should not be unnecessarily risked when it is not yet safe just to prove a point. So I hope they take their time and are cautious.

For now, IMO robots/drones should be the only things going into those tunnels.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Prior to the capture of the hospital: "Hamas has some sort of operational hub in or under this hospital", to now,

After the capture of the hospital: "Hamas had a tunnel entrance near the hospital."

These would seem to be fine but very significant distinctions. Am I misreading this? Are others seeing this same shift in narrative?

Sure, but those two things are not necessarily contradictory.

If there is a tunnel entrance near the hospital, which clearly seems to be the case, it goes somewhere. Where does it go? It may go under the hospital. Or it may go somewhere else that goes under the hospital.

Maybe that is what is behind the blast door in the videos. Maybe not. But personally I don't think it is worth sending humans down there on a suicide mission to check immediately today, if it isn't really necessary. After all, the soldiers who would go down and check are real people with real lives, who could really die if they are not careful.

Remember, if indeed it is correct that Hamas had tunnels under the hospital (especially if it was an important HQ), the point from Hamas' perspective of locating it there would be to dissuade Israel from using bunker buster bombs to destroy it, because the bombs would also destroy the hospital and create an international outcry.

That would be the case if the tunnels went under (or even just near) the hospital. It doesn't require that there be an entrance leading directly from the ER into the tunnels.

And of course, remember that there are other tunnel entrances and exits in different places, and the tunnel system is interconnected in complex ways that only Hamas really knows for sure, so there are probably some other entrances further away from the hospital that would also lead to the same place (if it is in fact true that Hamas has facilities located underneath the hospital).

[Florida Man for Crime]

The IDF appears to have released surveillance video of Hamas bringing a hostage into Shifa Hospital on October 7th.

https://twitter.com/talschneider/status/1726310948737077707
Edit: This tweet is the link I was sent. I'm not sure who this lady is if anyone was wondering 

Telegram links of the same thing

https://t.me/abualiexpress/54089

https://t.me/abualiexpress/54090

Translation from the hebrew on telegram:

Abu Ali Express
The Shin Bet and the IDF reveal unprecedented documentation of the admission of abductees to Shafaa Hospital on October 7

Joint statement to the IDF and Shin Bet spokesmen:

New findings revealed by the IDF and the Shin Bet prove that the Shifa Hospital was used as a terrorist infrastructure where Hamas terrorists took hostages on October 7; new details about the circumstances of the death of the late Corporal Noa Marciano

In the documentation revealed with the help of the General Security Service, Hamas terrorists can be seen on Saturday, October 7, forcibly transporting hostages, a Nepali citizen and a Thai citizen, who were kidnapped from Israeli territory. In addition, military vehicles that were brought from Israel during the murderous massacre can be seen inside the area of Shifa Hospital.

These findings prove that the terrorist organization Hamas used the Shifa hospital on the day of the massacre itself as a terrorist infrastructure.

These findings join the proofs we showed earlier, which prove that the terrorist organization Hamas uses the hospital area as an infrastructure for its terrorist activities in a systematic and ongoing manner.

Attached is documentation from Shifa Hospital from the day of the kidnapping, October 7, 2023, between the hours of 10:42 and 11:01 a.m. and in which abductees from Israeli territory are seen surrounded by armed Hamas terrorists. One of them is injured and is being carried on a hospital bed and the other is walking. These are the abductees, a Thai citizen and a Nepalese citizen, and a message about the found documentation was given to the relevant authorities.

The documentation is attached:
https://bit.ly/3QHSDwF

https://bit.ly/49KtWbC

Attached are photos from the transport of the abductees to Shifa Hospital: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC1911202384785758

Also attached are photos of IDF vehicles in the area of Shifa Hospital: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC19112023.7879852

A few days ago, the bodies of the late Judith Weiss and the late Corporal Noa Marciano, who were kidnapped on October 7, were returned to Israel. Acting on intelligence information from the Shin Bet, IDF forces located the bodies of Noa and the late Yehudit. Each of them was found in a different building near the Shifa Hospital.
The IDF and the Shin Bet share in the grief of the bereaved families, and will continue to act and take advantage of every opportunity to return the abductees home.

Attached is a sync of the 7th Brigade, Col. Elad Tzuri, describing the activity of the forces to find the late Corporal Noa Marciano: https://bit.ly/3QDxN1a

Attached is an infographic with the locations of the bodies of the late Judith Weiss and the late Corporal Noa Marciano: https://IDFANC.activetrail.biz/ANC97543

[Florida Man for Crime]

https://vxtwitter.com/talschneider/status/1726311988102308034

another video. As you can see this is from btw 10-11 am on Shabbat morning. The hospital is full of terrorists taking in abducted Israelis, and Thai, and Philippines foreign workers. According the IDF spokesman Noa Marciano was murdered inside Shifaa hospital

[Florida Man for Crime]

https://vxtwitter.com/IDF/status/1726319900304769393

These findings prove that the Hamas terrorist organization used the Shifa Hospital complex on the day of the October 7 Massacre as terrorist infrastructure. 2/2

[Florida Man for Crime]

They should be demanding he leave now. His ineptitude is why this happened. The Brits had no problem throwing Chamberlain out during war time, why won't the Israelis here?

Chamberlain was only thrown out after a failed intervention by the British and French on a secondary front (Norway).

If Israel also had a failed intervention on a secondary front (Lebanon, against Hezbollah), there is a good chance that it would similarly result in Netanyahu getting thrown out.

And not coincidentally, Netanyahu is aware of that, which is part of the reason why he has been against a pre-emptive strike against Hezbollah, even while some of his ministers supported it.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Apparently there were tunnel entrances directly from the Al Shifa hospital after all, but Hamas covered them in concrete prior to Israel taking control of the hospital:

https://fxtwitter.com/alexhiggins732/status/1727429855573360810

🚨 New video shows how Hamas HQ terror tunnel entrances were covered with concrete at the Shifa Hospital.

https://fxtwitter.com/manniefabian/status/1727386017328758951

The Israel Defense Forces exposes further parts of Hamas’s tunnel network under Shifa Hospital, publishing videos of additional entrances and underground hideout rooms.

[Florida Man for Crime]

In this War, Al-Jazeera and NY Times correspondents, doctors and "crisis actors" coerce hundreds of people to stay around the Hospital to help produce their international soap opera for Western Media.

The doctors in the Hospital can no longer deny the blatant military and kidnap activities within the al-Shifa complex.

It has nothing to do with "crisis actors." The reason that doctors in the hospital and other such people lied is simple. They and their families live in Gaza. If you live in Gaza and do something that Hamas doesn't like, then Hamas can kill you or your family - or just harm you or your family without killing you.

For that reason, even if they don't actually sympathize with Hamas, they will say absolutely anything that Hamas wants them to say. You would do the same if you lived in Gaza, as would I or anyone else reading this.

[Florida Man for Crime]

There is a possibility we may be headed for further escalation between Israel and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

https://vxtwitter.com/Faytuks/status/1727460763923591275

Hezbollah confirms that Sarraj Ra'ad, the son of the head of Hezbollah's parliamentary bloc, has been killed in an Israeli airstrike

Hezbollah will likely feel a need to respond to this.

Meanwhile Israel has been making demands at the UN that UN resolutions de-fanging Hezbollah in southern Lebanon be implemented:

https://vxtwitter.com/Faytuks/status/1727094252943954069

Israel has sent a letter to the presidency of the UN security council.

In the letter, Israel warns that if Resolution 1701 is not fully implemented, if the Hezbollah presence continues on the border, and UNIFIL does not use all its capabilities to prevent any military presence…

And Israelis are arguing that a military operation in southern Lebanon against Hezbollah will be justified if that does not happen:

https://vxtwitter.com/Faytuks/status/1727094810706837797

Big Israeli telegram channel: "If the UN does not remove Hezbollah north of the Litani River, Israel has all the legitimacy to do so on its own and launch a military operation"

[Florida Man for Crime]

Apparently the situation in Lebanon is actually even worse. 2 sons of 2 separate Hezbollah MPs have been killed, not just 1.

https://fxtwitter.com/jobahout/status/1727469132780605577

More details about #Hezbollah’s heavy losses tonight in #Israel’s targeted airstrike on Beit-Yahun (#South_Lebanon):
(PS: two are sons of the party’s MPs, Raad and Cherri)

So Hezbollah is surely going to hit back somehow in response to this. Then, particularly if a ceasefire does take hold in Gaza, Israel will have a large mobilized army ready to go, with nothing else to do.

Netanyahu and the Israeli war cabinet may decide that now is their moment of opportunity to deal with Hezbollah. And if this is what they are thinking, that may have been part of the reason why they were willing to accept a ceasefire in Gaza.

[Florida Man for Crime]

If the report of Hamas offering to release all the hostages including soldiers in exchange for ending the war can be trusted, I don't see how Netanyahu can turn it down - and how Gantz can refuse to a temporary alliance to make Ben-Gvir irrelevant.

Thing is, though, this will mean ALL the hostages - not "Oh, we can't find 70 of them". And then even when the war ends, I can't imagine Gaza won't start a new one in a few months with rockets and Israel won't treat it like a minor affair.

If I were Netanyahu and that were offered, what I would do is accept it.

And then I would immediately restart the war as soon as all the hostages were safe.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Interestingly, it seems that Arab governments agree with Vosem in wanting Israel to keep fighting (until Hamas unconditionally surrenders? or is destroyed).

https://www.twitter.com/ZachG932/status/1730691257096097923

Haaretz's Amos Harel reports that, behind the scenes, almost every Arab leader is urging Israel not to stop the war until Hamas is destroyed https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-30/ty-article/.premium/as-the-truce-with-hamas-progresses-decision-time-for-israel-approaches/0000018c-1ce6-da36-a1de-5fe797c20000

[Florida Man for Crime]

Israel's support is down to Fuzzy and Vosem types at this point.

Depends on what you mean by "support." There are also people like me who recognize that Israel suffered a huge terrorist attack in which Hamas intentionally massacred huge numbers of civilians, larger in terms of proportion of population killed than 9/11, and that such a thing can never be justified by anything and that Israel has a legitimate right to defend itself against that.

But at the same time, I recognize that Netanyahu is a ghoul and certainly do not support settlements, and think USA should use leverage to do more to put a stop to that.

In an ideal world, what might have been a good move for Biden way back on October 8 or so would have been to make clear that USA supports Israel's right to defend itself and to exist, and for that reason will help provide Israel with weapons etc to aid it materially, but at the same time to have made a purely symbolic gesture to have made clear that all is not well with Netanyahu and his far right government's policies.

For example, Biden could have, at the same time as he expressed the support that he actually did, have reversed Trump's symbolic decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem. Biden could have said that the reason for reversing that was Netanyahu's government's continued expansion of settlements in the west bank and concerns about the future of Democracy in Israel. Biden could have said that while Hamas' actions were atrocious, and while Israel had little choice but to seek to militarily dismantle Hamas, Hamas should not be confused with all Palestinian people, and that Palestinian civilians do have just as much of a right to live in peace and safety as do Israelis.

Biden could have said that at least on his watch and presumably on the watch of future Democratic Presidents (although a Republican President might reverse it in the interim), there would be no US embassy in Jerusalem until all settlement expansion was permanently canceled and until not only, and perhaps also not until there could also be a US embassy to the state of Palestine also in Jerusalem.

This would have made clear (even if only symbolically) that on the one hand, USA backs in clear material substance Israel's legitimate right to existence and self-defense, and recognizes that Hamas must be destroyed, but on the other hand, that does not entail unconditional blanket support for a far-right government which has done much to make the situation with Palestinians worse.

Israel's free ride is completely over and done with the next Dem president. I'm not sure where they'll turn after that, probably try to suck up to Russia again even though Putin has laughed in their face for years. Oh well.

This is actually part of the problem, and is something that does limit US leverage and how much US pressure can achieve. If the US stops backing Israel, it is not inconceivable that Israel could turn to China for support with weapons, and under the right circumstances, China might be willing to go along with that. This would be problematic both for the US and also for Israel because Israel has a lot of advanced US technology such as F-35s.

But we should remember that this sort of thing is possible, and that Israel is not actually a US puppet state. One of the core ideas of Israel's founding (as a direct result of the Holocaust) was the idea that nobody but Jews themselves could be truly trusted to defend the Jewish people, and that Israel should not fully depend on an outside power such as the US, but should be ready to defend itself on its own even without foreign support, if that is necessary.

So if things did get bad enough between Israel and the US, Israel could at some point start turning more towards China, India, or other non-western but non-arab/muslim countries.

[Florida Man for Crime]

In an ideal world, what might have been a good move for Biden way back on October 8 or so would have been to make clear that USA supports Israel's right to defend itself and to exist, and for that reason will help provide Israel with weapons etc to aid it materially, but at the same time to have made a purely symbolic gesture to have made clear that all is not well with Netanyahu and his far right government's policies.

For example, Biden could have, at the same time as he expressed the support that he actually did, have reversed Trump's symbolic decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem.

Well, there was actually a symbolic gesture that all is not right: Biden has threatened sanctions or visa bans on West Bank extremists, which would be an unprecedented step for an American President.

The problem for Biden with moving the embassy from Jerusalem, or something like this, is that in repeated congressional votes a majority of Democrats, including the current congressional leadership, have voted to have the Israeli embassy be in Jerusalem, and he would lose a large fraction of his base by reversing it.

"Activist hyper-motivated pro-Israeli sentiment" is a larger fraction of the Democratic base than "activist hyper-motivated pro-Palestinian sentiment". (This is incidentally still true among 18-29-year-old self-identified Democrats; ignore the headline and look at the actual numbers). The former are also much likelier to cross over and vote Republican outright; positions like this are just not on the table. There is a limit to how extreme you can be in a democracy. (In America it tends not to apply to courts, actually, but it very much applies to Presidents.)

You are undoubtedly right on the politics, I was just talking about what would be a good policy substantively (IMO). Israel would have to do something pretty beyond the pale (to the point of losing Congressional Democratic support from a significant number of Jewish members of Congress) for it to be politically viable for Biden to move back the embassy, and if he were going to do that at all he would not want to do it in an election year.

What Biden did do about threatening a visa ban on settler's is an example of a lower-profile symbolic gesture that will fly much more under the radar for most people in US domestic politics, but nevertheless sends a signal to the Israeli government and to the segments of the Israeli public that pay more attention to news. But not a strong enough signal to actually alter Israeli policy in any way, whereas moving the embassy back would instantly become a dominant topic of discussion in Israeli politics and could lead to more moderation and caution on the part of Israel out of fear of losing US support.

Plus, just as importantly, Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims would be well aware of it, and that would reduce a bit the amount of blowback the US suffers from them as a result of supporting Israel, which could at some point translate into terrorist attacks directly against the US if we are not careful.

[Florida Man for Crime]

I don't think "if we do the right thing then maybe violent extremists will attack us" is a very strong argument against doing the right thing; nor do I think violent attacks are very effective at convincing people of your organization's points. A large part of the reason for Palestinian liberationism's odd ineffectiveness in the face of PR victories, and the reason they seem to translate so poorly to the opinions of actual people, is the constant backlashes as a result of violence.

I am not saying we should do the wrong thing because we are scared of terrorists.

I am saying that we should do the right thing because it is the right thing to do and, as a positive side effect/secondary effect, also provides a potential benefit of reduced blowback, including possibly reducing potential terrorist attacks against the US.

The right thing to do consists of, in my opinion, providing Israel with material support to help them defend themselves and destroy Hamas in the current crisis, and to make clear that our support of Israel's existence and right to defend itself is unconditional. But at the same time, we should make clear that we do not support anything that Israel does unconditionally, most importantly its settlements expansion policy, and also potentially if Israel abandons or weakens democracy. We should make clear that while we will continue to support Israel in the present crisis, because it was attacked by a genocidal terrorist organization, if it does not remain a democracy and if it continues settlements, then our future support will weaken as soon as Israel know longer is having to defend itself from genocidal terrorist attacks against civilians, because Palestinians have a right to exist and to live (provided that they do so peacefully, without attacking Israel) just as much as Israelis have a right to exist and to live (provided they do so peacefully, without attacking Palestinians).

That is the right thing to do because it is the only real recipe for longer term peace and stability. If there is longer term peace and stability, then there is less likelihood of future terrorist attacks (both in Israel and the US).

[Florida Man for Crime]

Hamas has won!

First of all, it is not true that Hamas has won.

Second of all, I will let you clarify this, but my reading of your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing.

Is that an accurate reflection of your intentions, or did you mean to convey some other sort of message?

You do not have to be a supporter of the Israeli government or of things such as its settlement policy (neither of which many people such as myself support) to recognize that Hamas is a horrendous terrorist organization which deliberately seeks to murder large numbers of civilians - especially Israelis, but also Palestinians as well.

You can support Palestine and Palestinian civilians, and that's fine and reasonable if you want to go that way, but that does not mean you need to support Hamas.

I hope you will clarify that you do NOT support Hamas and that you condemn their actions in which they have deliberately murdered civilians, or else I for one will subsequently discount your postings more so than I already do, and I hope other posters will do the same.

If you don't do this, it makes the stances adopted by people such as Vosem for example actually look like a reasonable and sympathetic reaction, which is certainly not something you should want if you want what is best for Palestine and/or the Palestinian people, which nominally you seem to claim to be concerned with.

[Florida Man for Crime]

The Chinese still needed British and American help to remove the Japanese. There is no external military intervention coming that can stop Israeli aircraft from bombing at will.

Without US’s protection, Iran would come right through the front door.

And do what?

Apparently in pppolitics' world, even if Iran could manage to inflict conventional military defeat against Israel in an offensive war, for some reason Iran would have no need to be at all concerned about Israeli nukes.

Maybe pppolitics knows something we don't about that, but I doubt it.

[Florida Man for Crime]

https://twitter.com/joetruzman/status/1738969703731843324

Hamas police officers shoot and disperse Palestinians looking for aid in the Gaza Strip.

This seems to support the point that if you claim to support Palestinian civilians, you should not support Hamas. Because if you do, you are really not supporting Palestinian civilians at all.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Not Iran- a dissolution of the US-Israeli alliance would likely lead to Egypt and Jordan quickly flipping to anti-Israel positions and literally all of Israel's neighbours invading, in which sheer numbers mean that unfortunately I doubt the Israeli state would stand much chance of survival.

Unlikely. It just means that the Israeli navy would undergo an expansion to the point that the Israeli government is 110% sure they can't be first striked without still being able to annihilate everyone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine

The Dolphin 2 class submarines are the largest to have been built in Germany since World War II and the most expensive single vehicles in the Israel Defense Forces.[3][8] The Dolphin class replaced the aging Gal class, which had served in the Israeli navy since the late 1970s. Each Dolphin-class submarine is capable of carrying a combined total of up to 16 torpedoes and Popeye Turbo submarine-launched cruise missiles (SLCMs).[9] The cruise missiles have a range of at least 1,500 km (930 mi)[10] and are widely believed[11][12] to be equipped with a 200 kiloton nuclear warhead containing up to 6 kilograms (13 lb) of plutonium.[13][14] The latter, if true, would provide Israel with an offshore nuclear second-strike capability.[15][16][17][18]

And since Egypt and Jordan are aware of this, they would also choose not to attack Israel, at least not in any remotely existential way.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Accusing anyone who doubts Israel is telling the unvarnished truth is not wanting to mass murder Jews.

This is true. There are plenty of people that doubt Israel about various things in good faith, and we should all be mindful of this.

However, it appears, at least to me, that pppolitics is not one of them.

We know this because back in this post a few pages ago, in this post, I asked pppolitics to clarify https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.msg9330289#msg9330289

my reading of your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing.

Is that an accurate reflection of your intentions, or did you mean to convey some other sort of message?

...

I hope you will clarify that you do NOT support Hamas and that you condemn their actions in which they have deliberately murdered civilians

Unfortunately pppolitics declined to do so, which would seem to indicate that pppolitics does in fact support Hamas' action in which they deliberately murdered civilians.

This does not necessarily mean that pppolitics "is wanting to mass murder Jews," in your words, because supporting mass murder does not necessarily mean that pppolitics would directly commit in murder him/herself. In other words, pppolitics appears to be a supporter of terrorism, but being a supporter is not necessarily the same thing as being an actual terrorist, though it certainly isn't good.

However, it does appear to imply that, as Chancellor Tanterterg said, pppolitics is "only in this to cheerlead the mass murder of (((Jews)))."

If any of this is wrong, I would encourage pppolitics to correct the record.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Wait wait wait.

Are you saying that I support Hamas because I wrote “Hamas has won” in bold?

No, I was saying that the fact it was bold, combined with the fact that it was in large font with an exclamation mark made it appear that you were happy about it ("your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing"). Or in other words, as Chancellor Tanterterg put it, you were "cheerlead(ing) the mass murder of (((Jews)))."

Surely you can see how someone reading in good faith would interpret that as the intended message from this:

Let's stop beating around the bushes and say the obvious:

Hamas has won!

It appears to be a celebratory post.

Talking about jumping to conclusions.

Israel said that it’s going to continue the war in Gaza until it wins.

My point is that this is nonsense because Hamas has already won (and Israel already lost).

Israel is continuing the war in Gaza to try to save face.

This has nothing to do with justice. Israel is just extracting revenge on civilians.

And just to be clear, I already said this before

Israel isn't fighting Hamas. It already lost.

Israel is just continuing to exact revenge on civilians to try to save face.

OK. In the above, I still do not see you actually denying that you support Hamas. You cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge, as Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P! just did, that Hamas is a terrorist organization:

I can't speak for anyone else but my position is simple: Hamas are terrorists and the IDF are far worse than terrorists.

As Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P! just showed, you can do that while still being very critical of Israel. If what you really want is just to be harshly critical of Israel, you can do that, but that does not mean you need to resist condemning Hamas for what they objectively did - deliberately murder large numbers of civilians. Is that really the impression that you want to convey?

This ought to be a slam dunk for you. It should be easy for you to say "Of course I do not support Hamas" or at least "of course Hamas is a terrorist organization" (which at least carries the implication that Hamas is bad, because "terrorism" is generally taken to be a bad thing. If you did that, then you could say something like "see how reasonable I am, in contrast to these other people who cannot admit that Israel has ever done anything the slightest bit problematic."

Instead, by your deliberate avoidance of taking the easy dunk, you continue to convey the opposite impression.

[Florida Man for Crime]

I can't speak for anyone else but my position is simple: Hamas are terrorists

I am glad that you are willing to say that, and while I will not agree with everything else you say, I think that shows you are at least coming at things in basic good faith. For my part I was NOT saying that anyone who criticizes Israel supports Hamas, it was in particular just pppolitics who seemed to me to be conveying that impression.

and the IDF are far worse than terrorists. They're currently engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing against an imprisoned and dispossessed indigenous population and have committed countless atrocities that make October 7th look like a professional military operation with minimal collateral damage.

To me, that does not appear to be supported by what I can see (at least sitting from a distance behind my keyboard).

I think the simplest way to see that is not correct is to ask yourself the hypothetical question - what would happen if Hamas hypothetically had the same military capabilities that Israel actually has, and, instead, Israel had the same military capabilities that Hamas actually has?

Given what Hamas has done and certainly what they openly say are their goals, it appears to me that they would very much like to kill a lot more Israeli civilians than they have, and would like to eliminate the state of Israel. They do say this openly.

So hypothetically, if Hamas had a state of the art air force and a large well equipped modern conventional land army, as well as nuclear weapons, like Israel has, what would happen would probably be pretty similar to the Rwandan genocide. You would likely have mass indiscriminate deliberate killing of at least a million or two Israeli civilians and you would have an enormous outflow of millions of Jewish refugees stampeding the borders and floating out into the Mediterranean on small makeshift plyboard rafts, with people not caring whether other governments wanted to accept them, but just madly trying to escape mass imminent death like cornered animals.

Now contrast that to what is occurring in Gaza currently. Israel has made some attempts (as imperfect as they are) to limit civilian casualties and to get civilians evacuated from at least the worst most dangerous areas. Even if you take the reported figure of >20k dead (not even attempting to distinguish between Hamas fighters and genuine civilians) from the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry at total unquestioned face value, and then if we generously round that up to 30k, that is ~1.3% of the 2.4 million population of the Gaza Strip.

If it were actually true that the IDF were worse than Hamas and if the IDF were actually genuinely seeking to commit systematic mass genocide against Palestinian civilians, I would suggest to you that the numbers would be far, far, higher. There would be at the least hundreds of thousands of Palestinians dead, and frankly I would think it would be most of the population by now - certainly well north of a million Palestinians dead in Gaza right now.

But (thankfully) that is not the case.

That doesn't mean that what is happening isn't terrible and horrible and deeply regrettable - obviously it is. And all the more so for the people who, unlike you and me, are actually there rather than sitting safely behind their keyboards like you and I are. To them, the fact that "it could be a million dead" is cold comfort. But nevertheless, compared to what is actually possible for advanced militaries to do if they are actually genuinely trying to commit large scale murder of civilians, and in the annals of comparison to modern wars and modern genocides, this is small potatoes.

This also is not to say that the IDF doesn't have problems or that it is perfect. I think it is fair to say that they have some problems with discipline and professionalism, but that is hardly surprising given that Israel has a small population and that consequently the IDF is a citizen army full of draftees and reservists. You can also make some reasonable policy-based criticisms of the rules of engagement if you want, which stem from the government policy of Israel/Netanyahu and military leaders.

This doesn't mean the situation is not bad, but it does mean that the idea that the IDF is worse than Hamas just appears at least to me to be outright wrong.

Simply put, if Hamas had the same capabilities as Israel, they would be doing unspeakably worse.

I think it might be possible to disagree with that, but if so the way you would probably have to disagree with it is to say something like "If Hamas had the same military capabilities as Israel, they would act differently and have different goals. They only want to eliminate Israel and mass murder Israelis because they do not actually have the capability to do so, basically as a way of expressing their feeling of powerlessness and desperation, stemming from their relative weakness."

If that is the direction you would take it, I think maybe you could have a reasonable and interesting possible point, but I don't really see any other direction to take it.



One last closing thought, back to this:

make October 7th look like a professional military operation with minimal collateral damage.

I think how you view this is a big part of the issue, and in particular it is a question of what standards you apply to whom. If hypothetically Hamas had sought to conduct something like a professional military operation on October 7, then I would view them a lot differently from the way I view them right now. If instead of deliberately seeking to target civilians they had deliberately sought to just target Israeli military bases and Israeli military installations, then they would have "just" been engaged in ordinary warfare, not terrorism.

From a tactical/strategic perspective, I understand why they don't do that - they would lose and they don't want to lose, but that does not mean that we should just say "ok, we understand you are the weaker party, so it is ok for you to commit terrorism." The fact that they are weaker doesn't just mean that we should all sit back and say, "ah, what a great job, you got Israel to kill civilians and are winning some international sympathy as a result."

Ordinary warfare is not great - not good at all, actually - but it at least has established and recognized rules, which have been loosely agreed to as humanity's way of at least trying to limit and restrain the horror of war somewhat.

The way I look at it, Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza. The only difference between "de facto" and "actual" is one of personal perspective, so to me these means that Hamas is in fact (or "de facto") a state actor. As such, we should expect that if it wants to engage in warfare, it should abide by those rules. Hamas also claims to be a national liberation movement representing the Palestinian people. While they are not the same thing as the Palestinian people any more than any other government is the same thing as the people they rule over, if they aspire to represent the Palestinian state, they must be held to equal standards as other states.

Whatever else you want to say about Israel, it does clearly make attempts to uphold those standards and rules of war. Israeli soldiers wear uniforms, for example. The purpose of that is to enable identification of combatants and non-combatants. The reason that is a thing is to protect civilians. Hamas does not do this because they do not want to protect civilians; they want the opposite.

This simple fact - that Hamas does not want to cooperate with the rules of war that are designed to clearly distinguish combatants from non-combatants - is undeniably a large part of the reason why Israel has inflicted many of the civilian casualties that they have inflicted.


I think a considerable part of the difference between our opinions is no more complicated than the fact that I would seek to hold Hamas to those same sort of standards, whereas for some arbitrary reason, you are seemingly choosing not to hold Hamas to any particular standards.

But it takes 2 parties to make a war, and if you want rules to mean anything in practice, a necessary requirement of that is that rules have to apply to everyone.

[Florida Man for Crime]

Are you a mind reader? Do you claim that you can determine my state of mind?

No, that's literally why I asked you to clarify.

As I said (emphasis added):

Second of all, I will let you clarify this, but my reading of your use of the large font, bold, and exclamation mark is that you are happy about your (perception) that Hamas has won and you consider it a good thing.

Is that an accurate reflection of your intentions, or did you mean to convey some other sort of message?

And that's also why I said:

If any of this is wrong, I would encourage pppolitics to correct the record.

Hamas are terrorists.

Thank you, I am glad you have now acknowledged that.

Bibi and his buddies are war criminals and just as bad as those Hamas terrorists if not worse.

_______________________________________________________________________________

You have to ask yourself: Why would I, an atheist, support a repressive Islamic militant group like Hamas?

It doesn't make any sense.

As another left of center poster (and fwiw also an atheist, if that mattered), I would agree that I also don't like Bibi or his policies. As to them being "just as bad" "if not worse" than Hamas and "war criminals," I would refer you to my other post in response to Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!. This seems like an emotional argument which you are making out of some sort of expression of your presumably genuine sympathy for Palestinian civilians rather than an informed one based in fact.

If you want to say that you think something Israel did is bad, fine, but you should not feel like in order to say that you need to stretch the truth to say that Israel is even worse than the other guys.

It does make me a bit sad to see this as your response though, because it is literally exactly what Hamas wanted to achieve on Oct 7 (to provoke an Israeli response which would provoke international sympathy and an emotional reaction against Israel from people such as yourself), and since you have now agreed that Hamas are terrorists, you must surely agree that what they wanted cannot be a good thing, presuming you would agree with the implication that terrorism is bad.

As to why people would support a repressive Islamic militant group like Hamas, it is a good question that I have been asking myself more often than I would like recently with respect to various left of center people who seem reluctant to criticize Hamas out of some sort of misplaced desire to view the world through some sort of misleading oppressor-oppressed ideological framework.