Israel-Gaza war

[GoTfan]

You guys need to decide.  Either (A) Hamas is the duly-elected authentic representative government of Gaza and can, as a state actor, declare war on the State of Israel on behalf of the Palestinians of Gaza, or (B) Hamas is a group of terrorist thugs who hold the weak, pitiable, helpless Palestinians of Gaza captive against their will, and thus the Palestinians are not responsible in any way whatsoever for the actions of their elected government.

I think Hamas is a violent terrorist group that should be eradicated. I also think that there are some in the Israeli government and IDF who do indeed support collective punishment for everyone in Gaza.

My position has not changed one bit. If you're going to try to characterise me as a Hamas supporter, know that you're a liar.

[GoTfan]

With the new UNRWA allegations proving to be true, things are not looking good for the end of the war.  Netanyahu now has enough proof to claim international conspiracy and continue the war.  In fact, and in spite of what Israel says (under US pressure), I believe that any autonomous government in Gaza is now not going to happen in any scenario.

I cannot fathom what Hamas wanted to achieve in October.  They have set back the Palestinian cause by over 50 years and perhaps doomed the chances of an internationally recognized Palestinian state permanently.  Yes, Israel reacted disproportionately and civillians are hurting, perhaps they are even engaging in genocidal activities, but did the Hamas leadership really expect anything else?

It seems likely that Hamas was hoping that Hezbollah and the West Bank/Jordan would follow suit, pulling off similar incursions inspired by them and causing six figures of casualties and taking thousands of hostages. When that failed to emerge, all they were left with was an enraged Israel that was still intact enough to respond with overwhelming, unending force.

All the UN agencies were pro-Hamas from before Oct 7.

Hamas were not expecting Israel to run over the top of them so easily. They could see the Western money coming in. They had direct links to CNN, NY Times, ABC and BBC.

Hamas thought hiding behind civilians, schools and hospitals was the 'perfect' defence.

As the Israeli's attacked, Hamas simply activated their UN-backed media show. The same UN who helped the Serbs split men and boys away from woman and girls which enabled the Srebrinica massacre. One of the last people those 9,000 victims saw before their execution was a UN peacekeeping soldier.

As with Bosnia, these so called 'expert' UN media reports now read in a totally different light.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/gaza-un-experts-decry-bombing-hospitals-and-schools-crimes-against-humanity

Unbelievably, one of the UN experts in that report is an expert on sexual violence against women. And she blames Israel.

Hamas had an idea that reporting from Hospitals with their fighters in UN vests would gain enough international sympathy to stop Israel.

UNRWA Report

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2nPTAaLJXe/

Unless you think about it for more than five minutes.

[GoTfan]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

I think the problem is that there is a solution that is fair an equitable out there waiting, but it's not one Netanyahu nor Hamas have any interest in finding. For Hamas, they get to radicalise more and more of the population. For Netanyahu, he gets to stay in power longer and longer.

[GoTfan]

This guy needs to be sacked.


(CNN 28 Jan 2024)

Either (i) he knew the UNRWA staff were active in the October 7 attacks, or (ii) he had no idea about the UNRWA staff involved in the beheading and raping of Israeli civilians.

Either situation is unacceptable as a leader, and certainly, a huge stain on the reputation of the UN agencies in the region.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-chief-asks-donors-to-reconsider-as-germany-joins-cascade-freezing-funds/

The UN aid should be contingent on the release of all Israeli hostages. Why are we sending money to terrorist organisations with the funds used to murder and kidnap civilians?

Probably because not everyone in Gaza had a role in the attacks or is a Hamas supporter? I dunno man, I think you're letting the racism show a bit.

[GoTfan]

heres the solution, make the UK sort this out. they got us into this mess, they can fix the mess that they started

That's a bit of a stretch. Like yes, if the British government in the 1930s hadn't pandered to Arab xenophobia and restricted Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany from seeking refuge in the Levant, then far more Jews would have survived and ended up in Israel, and it is unlikely that a Palestinian state would have ever been considered viable. But any other colonial administrator like the Ottomans would have probably made the same decision that the UK did there.

The residents of the Palestine mandate were as entitled to political self-determination as anyone else in the world regardless of anyone's opinion of the "viability" of such a state.

Yeah but have you considered that some people here think Palestinians don't deserve basic rights? In order to understand some people on here-like Vosem-we have to assume that they thibk Palestinians are less than human. That is inescapable.

[GoTfan]

Nancy Pelosi suggests some Palestinian protestors should be investigated for having links to Russia.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/28/politics/pelosi-criticism-palestinian-gaza-protests-russia/index.html

"Some, I think, are connected to Russia. And I say that having looked at this for a long time now, as you know.”

I wonder what she knows that we don't. The length of time is an interesting comment.

The old Palestinians are having a bad month after the UNRWA fiasco.

This is what's called a conspiracy theory.

[GoTfan]

This guy needs to be sacked.


(CNN 28 Jan 2024)

Either (i) he knew the UNRWA staff were active in the October 7 attacks, or (ii) he had no idea about the UNRWA staff involved in the beheading and raping of Israeli civilians.

Either situation is unacceptable as a leader, and certainly, a huge stain on the reputation of the UN agencies in the region.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-chief-asks-donors-to-reconsider-as-germany-joins-cascade-freezing-funds/

The UN aid should be contingent on the release of all Israeli hostages. Why are we sending money to terrorist organisations with the funds used to murder and kidnap civilians?

Probably because not everyone in Gaza had a role in the attacks or is a Hamas supporter? I dunno man, I think you're letting the racism show a bit.

Indeed. The URNWA is irreplaceable.

God, I hope so. My fear is that after its defunding some organization will be able to replace it in funneling Western money to Hamas. Thankfully the evolution of Western public opinion is such that practices like "Palestinian aid" have become less and less tenable.

Why do you hate Palestinians so deeply?

[GoTfan]

This guy needs to be sacked.


(CNN 28 Jan 2024)

Either (i) he knew the UNRWA staff were active in the October 7 attacks, or (ii) he had no idea about the UNRWA staff involved in the beheading and raping of Israeli civilians.

Either situation is unacceptable as a leader, and certainly, a huge stain on the reputation of the UN agencies in the region.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-chief-asks-donors-to-reconsider-as-germany-joins-cascade-freezing-funds/

The UN aid should be contingent on the release of all Israeli hostages. Why are we sending money to terrorist organisations with the funds used to murder and kidnap civilians?

Probably because not everyone in Gaza had a role in the attacks or is a Hamas supporter? I dunno man, I think you're letting the racism show a bit.

Indeed. The URNWA is irreplaceable.

God, I hope so. My fear is that after its defunding some organization will be able to replace it in funneling Western money to Hamas. Thankfully the evolution of Western public opinion is such that practices like "Palestinian aid" have become less and less tenable.

Why do you hate Palestinians so deeply?

I don't. I advocate for treating them the same way as everyone else.

Apart from wanting them wiped out and believing they have no right to food, water or shelter that is.

[GoTfan]

The Islamist left is complaining about this. When Israel was bombing Gaza, they cried that Israel should only be using targeted assassinations so there wouldn’t be civilian casualties. But now targeted assassinations are a war crime too.

-Snip-

And as a member of the oh, so, scary Islamist left that apparently has all of you pro-Israel people quaking in your boots, the key part that you're conveniently ignoring is the fact it took place in a hospital, and they were disguised as civilians.

Yes, that is what a covert Mossad operation to kill genocidal war criminals looks like.

I understand the rationale. I don't agree with the method.

[GoTfan]

To be fair Vosem, you also want Palestinians to be denied food and water.
 

[GoTfan]

It's also over a decade old.

[GoTfan]

Like, to be clear in one paragraph: my position is not just that we should create a world free from Palestinian liberationism. My position is that we should create a world where everyone, including the Palestinian people themselves, can agree that the destruction of Palestinian liberationism, as represented in this operation, was morally not just good but obligatory. Then there can be peace.

Holy hell this is unhinged.

[GoTfan]

@Vosem

How do you feel about President Biden's recent executive order to sanction Israeli settlers?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/01/biden-executive-order-israel-palestine-00139023#:~:text=President%20Joe%20Biden%20is%20expected,official%20and%20a%20congressional%20aide.

And how do you feel about the state department considering to recognize a Palestinian state and linking Palestinian statehood to any Israel-Saudi deal

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/31/palestine-statehood-biden-israel-gaza-war

You're never gonna convince him to agree with even the most minor anti-Israel policy. He'll write an essay-long soliloquy where he'll play PC and waddle, but in the end it always ends with the maximalist pro-Israel position (destruction of "Palestinian liberationism" aka destruction of any sort of "Palestine"). Even ignoring Gaza, he supports the ongoing policies in the West Bank of Palestinians receiving no equal rights. It's almost impossible to change someone with these type of views.

I like that you admit that you won't convince me of things, but the conversation here should continue anyway, until I convince you to destroy the Palestinian liberationism within you. Total destruction means infrastructure too, but it also means destroying those ideas in every human heart, mind, and soul.

That is an impossible idea unless your goal is the death of every Palestinian on the planet. Then again, you support that.

[GoTfan]

@Vosem

How do you feel about President Biden's recent executive order to sanction Israeli settlers?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/01/biden-executive-order-israel-palestine-00139023#:~:text=President%20Joe%20Biden%20is%20expected,official%20and%20a%20congressional%20aide.

And how do you feel about the state department considering to recognize a Palestinian state and linking Palestinian statehood to any Israel-Saudi deal

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/31/palestine-statehood-biden-israel-gaza-war

You're never gonna convince him to agree with even the most minor anti-Israel policy. He'll write an essay-long soliloquy where he'll play PC and waddle, but in the end it always ends with the maximalist pro-Israel position (destruction of "Palestinian liberationism" aka destruction of any sort of "Palestine"). Even ignoring Gaza, he supports the ongoing policies in the West Bank of Palestinians receiving no equal rights. It's almost impossible to change someone with these type of views.

I like that you admit that you won't convince me of things, but the conversation here should continue anyway, until I convince you to destroy the Palestinian liberationism within you. Total destruction means infrastructure too, but it also means destroying those ideas in every human heart, mind, and soul.

That is an impossible idea unless your goal is the death of every Palestinian on the planet. Then again, you support that.

...why? Every other nationalist movement has accepted that conquest is wrong. Nobody thinks that convincing Russians to leave Ukraine can only be done by killing every Russian. Similarly Nazism died without killing every German. What, in your estimation, makes the Palestinians so uniquely evil that they cannot be convinced to abandon Palestinian liberationism?

The more you best them down, the more resistant they become and the more people will be ready to rise against you.

Don't try to paint West Germany as some sort of anti-Nazi haven after WW2 either. There was a significant ultra-right movement and Konrad Adenauer literally denounced Denazification, oh and there is another far right movement growing in Germany today.

[GoTfan]

Biden facing election defeat because of his unwavering support for Israel.

Biden and Israel

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2aSJBgyXUv/

Meanwhile in Gaza, UNRWA appears rotten to the core.

UNRWA Schools

https://www.instagram.com/p/C20PP5jP5MU/

That is really sad that the western countries have been donating billions of dollars and all they got was a Muslim version of the Nazi party.

Ne very careful with  the Nazi comparisons there, mate.

[GoTfan]

Mashik Gulst 2024

UN Watch. A famously unbiased organisation with absolutely no inbuilt prejudice at all.

[GoTfan]

Vosem's statements are directly comparable to Ahmedinijad's statement on wanting to "wipe Zionism off the map [but not the Jews]." If Laki had repeated those words I would have requested a temp ban. Vosem should be put in the cooler till he stops his understandable frenzy because it's basically genocidal rhetoric disguised under some intellectual mumbo jumbo.

He still hasn't apologised for accusing me of supporting slavery. I would have thought accusing other posters of supporting slavery at least warranted a temp ban.

[GoTfan]

Meclazine, you believe that only white people are legitimate refugees.

[GoTfan]

During the Israeli strikes on Gaza, many leftists said that this military operation was not about self defense, but a plan to occupy Gaza forever.

Now, it's not only the leftists who are doing this statement. Ministers of Netanyahu administration attended an event about a permanent Israeli occupation in Gaza
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2024/01/29/israeli-ministers-join-thousands-of-settlers-in-calling-for-colonization-of-gaza/

So long as Palestinian liberationism exists, occupying Gaza is about self-defense. Your first sentence implies a contradiction.

Wiping out such an ideology is impossible unless you want to wipe out all Palestinians. You haven't said it outright, but . . .

[GoTfan]

Arab Muslims in Israel.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2onIzWIFY9/

After the events of the last 4 months, none of them are leaving to go to Saudi, Jordan or Lebanon.

Maybe because they'd rather not leave their homes where they've spent their entire lives?

[GoTfan]

Arab Muslims in Israel.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2onIzWIFY9/

After the events of the last 4 months, none of them are leaving to go to Saudi, Jordan or Lebanon.

Post removed by moderator.

I think he's trying to point out the overall quality of life of Arab Muslim Israelis in Israel proper, which is generally true but also kind of feels like a non-sequiter in this thread.

Meclazine excels at that sort of thing

[GoTfan]

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

I'm not sure what makes you think I am confusing it with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay policy directly funds terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Hopefully one day the PA will be consigned to history and its members put on trial for their crimes. At the very least there should be strict sanctions against them and a total blockade.

"2.5 million people don't deserve autonomy because of a terrorist group"

[GoTfan]

No one enters the West Bank without Israel permission. I happen to be a Palestinian American who has traveled to the West Bank. BTW Fatah is the group choosen by Israel to lead the West Bank. The IDF collects taxes for them!

The same group chosen by Israel to lead the West Bank? The same group the IDF collects taxes for?

The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The majority of the Gaza Strip was born after this election

Hamas only won a pluraity, not a majority. And they did not run on a violence platform back in 2006 either

The fact that the Israeli government collaborates with Fatah out of convenience doesn't make Fatah any less fundamentally evil. How do you think the international community would react if Israel were to institute a policy that any settler who kills a Palestinian civilian will not only never face any legal consequences but will also receive a lifetime pension from the Israeli government as a reward for doing so? It would obviously be described as a genocidal/fascist policy and correctly so.

And yet does any relevant Palestinian party openly oppose pay to slay? Fatah and Hamas both openly back it. An overwhelming majority of votes in the 2006 election were for fascist parties. It wouldn't even surprise me if it were 100%.

When was the last time any settlers faced legal consequences for violating the law?

[GoTfan]

The first step is justice for those like Hallel Yaffa Ariel who were murdered in cold blood by state endorsed terror. Members of Fatah and Hamas need to face trials in the same way the Nazis did, with trials of all of the collaborators.

When it comes to rooting out evil, there's no compromise with those who believe the cold blooded murder of children is something to celebrate.

This is not an answer. What is your long term vision for peace?

One state solution is the only way. Israel is the only successor state to the British Mandatory Palestine in existence and the only state with any sort of claim to the region, and modern Palestinian nationalism is explicitly antisemitic including pushing for the ethnic cleansing of all Jewish settlements from a hypothetical Palestinian state.

So I'd say something along the lines of, Israel formally declares the West Bank and Gaza Strip as being part of Israel, recognizes Arabic as a national language and Arab Israelis as a national minority group. Make it so that Arab residents of the West Bank/Gaza can get Israeli citizenship if they want it (along with the responsibilities that comes with like IDF service). Anyone who engages in collaboration with terror groups like Hamas is deported with their property seized by the Israeli state and given to victims of Hamas attacks and their families as compensation; the higher up terror leaders should face life in prison (I'm pro-life and oppose the death penalty on principle no matter how evil someone's actions are). And gradually remove the checkpoints in the West Bank and so on as it becomes safe to do so.

Do you not see that Israel is the major obstacle to the peace you envision? The notion of Israel voluntarily giving up its status as a Jewish state someday, which this situation would, is completely unthinkable. Why do you spend so much time attacking reprehensible but relatively powerless Hamas supporters and so little time attacking the people who insist that Palestinians can never be given equal citizenship, who actually have the preponderance of political power in the region's only nuclear state?

Netanyahu recently suggested a two state solution might not be viable and got lambasted for doing so. Some Israeli MKs recently suggested the Jewish population which was ethnically cleansed from Gaza twenty years ago should be able to return to their homes; this again received heavy criticism.

Israel's status as a Jewish state wouldn't be under question following the incorporation of the West Bank and Gaza if done right. It's not about numbers. The Druze minority in Israel largely respects the state institutions; this is true regardless of the size of the Druze population of Israel.

The fundamental issue is that a large number of Arabs living in the area do not respect the existence of Israel or recognize the state institutions. For example the Arab population of Jerusalem is eligible for Israeli citizenship but most have declined because they want to instead be part of a hypothetical state of Palestine.  

Probably because they have as much right to self-autonomy as any other people. In order to get to the view that they do not have a right to self-autonomy, we have to start from the viewpoint that they are less than human.

[GoTfan]

I would like to hear proposals for how people would like to see this conflict end.  Based on what appears to be Hamas's current negotiating position that they won't "grant" Israel a ceasefire, they will only accept a permanent peace treaty where Hamas stays in power and Israel funds them.

A) Israel accepts Hamas's demands and the war ends (presumably Hamas spends a few years re-arming, on Israel's credit card, and then attacks again in Biden's second term).

B) Israel rejects Hamas's demands and continues bombing Gaza to smithereens, presumably with some hope of eventually eliminating Hamas, rescuing the hostages, and occupying/rebuilding Gaza under Israel's terms.

C) Israel doesn't accept Hamas's demands, but they do unilaterally end the war and abandon the hostages to torture and death, leaving Gaza under Hamas's control.

D) The international community intervenes to end the war by forming an anti-Hamas coalition that occupies Gaza without Israeli involvement.

E) The international community sanctions, and even possibly takes military action, against Israel to force them to abandon the hostages.

I can't think of any other options?

I feel like I am listening to options on a phone menu but none of them fit with the reality of the problem.

What was the option that got you banned?

He's under no obligation to disclose that.