Israel-Gaza war

[Pres Mike]

If Benny Gantz becomes prime minister, it might be the last chance for a two state solution. Just straight out say what a Palestinian state will be and move out (Ariel Sharon's original plan)

According to Yair Lapid's plan, withdraw from all Israeli settlements except the three towns of Ariel, Gush Etzion and Ma'aleh Adumim. Have the US and UK recognize the new Palestinian state and be done with it.

But this must mean no more checkpoints between Palestinian cities and villages. It also means Palestinians control their water and electricity. And allow Palestinian development in Jordan valley.

Israel would probably maintain a permanent military presence on Jordanian border

If Gantz were to become PM and even tried something like that, I imagine the amount of protests against him would be massive and Lieberman would probably withdraw from the coalition so as to bring down the government.

Really don't think there would be much public support for the Israeli state engaging in the ethnic cleansing of most of the Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank followed by ceding control of the area over to a terror state which funds the murder of Israeli civilians.

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

[patzer]

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

I'm not sure what makes you think I am confusing it with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay policy directly funds terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Hopefully one day the PA will be consigned to history and its members put on trial for their crimes. At the very least there should be strict sanctions against them and a total blockade.

[GALeftist]

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

I'm not sure what makes you think I am confusing it with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay policy directly funds terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Hopefully one day the PA will be consigned to history and its members put on trial for their crimes. At the very least there should be strict sanctions against them and a total blockade.

What do you think the long term solution is to end the violence you reference, patzer?

[GoTfan]

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

I'm not sure what makes you think I am confusing it with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay policy directly funds terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Hopefully one day the PA will be consigned to history and its members put on trial for their crimes. At the very least there should be strict sanctions against them and a total blockade.

"2.5 million people don't deserve autonomy because of a terrorist group"

[patzer]

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

I'm not sure what makes you think I am confusing it with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay policy directly funds terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Hopefully one day the PA will be consigned to history and its members put on trial for their crimes. At the very least there should be strict sanctions against them and a total blockade.

What do you think the long term solution is to end the violence you reference, patzer?

The first step is justice for those like Hallel Yaffa Ariel who were murdered in cold blood by state endorsed terror. Members of Fatah and Hamas need to face trials in the same way the Nazis did, with trials of all of the collaborators.

When it comes to rooting out evil, there's no compromise with those who believe the cold blooded murder of children is something to celebrate.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

The PA is internationally recognised as funding anti-Israeli terrorists to the tune of US$300M per annum.

Their logo is based on the Third Reich.

[patzer]

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

I'm not sure what makes you think I am confusing it with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay policy directly funds terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Hopefully one day the PA will be consigned to history and its members put on trial for their crimes. At the very least there should be strict sanctions against them and a total blockade.

"2.5 million people don't deserve autonomy because of a terrorist group"

When a vast majority of those people are voting for parties that support murdering Jewish civilians, then yes, there obviously should not be any autonomy or self determination until that is no longer the case.

[Pres Mike]

Wow, you really are quite ignorant of the situation aren't you? But I don't blame you, you are only a junior member who clearly up to date on the history. Which youl would be if you read the prior 200 pages

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

total blockade.

No one enters the West Bank without Israel permission. I happen to be a Palestinian American who has traveled to the West Bank. BTW Fatah is the group choosen by Israel to lead the West Bank. The IDF collects taxes for them!

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

The PA is internationally recognised as funding anti-Israeli terrorists to the tune of US$300M per annum.

Their logo is based on the Third Reich.

The same group chosen by Israel to lead the West Bank? The same group the IDF collects taxes for?

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

I'm not sure what makes you think I am confusing it with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay policy directly funds terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Hopefully one day the PA will be consigned to history and its members put on trial for their crimes. At the very least there should be strict sanctions against them and a total blockade.

"2.5 million people don't deserve autonomy because of a terrorist group"

When a vast majority of those people are voting for parties that support murdering Jewish civilians, then yes, there obviously should not be any autonomy or self determination until that is no longer the case.

The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The majority of the Gaza Strip was born after this election

Hamas only won a pluraity, not a majority. And they did not run on a violence platform back in 2006 either

[GeneralMacArthur]

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

The PA is internationally recognised as funding anti-Israeli terrorists to the tune of US$300M per annum.

Their logo is based on the Third Reich.

I doubt if anyone believed this, but just in case, it's not true.  The eagle is a symbol of pan-Arabism based on Saladin's double-headed eagle, in particular this eagle carving (likely originally double-headed) in the Citadel of Saladin in Cairo (which, incidentally, I have visited, although the once double-headed eagle didn't catch my eye):






What's ironic, of course, is that despite the eagle being a symbol of pan-Arabism, the modern Palestinian cause is emblematic of the failure of that movement.  As we all know, fifty years ago the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt, during a time when Egypt was part of the United Arab Republic.  And the West Bank was part of Jordan, which was half of the Arab Federation.  Both the UAR and the AF aspired to become pan-Arab empires.  Now not only do those states no longer exist, but Egypt and Jordan respectively want nothing to do with the regions of Israel they once controlled, regions which have now transitioned to Palestinian nationalism, and the dream of creating an independent state completely distinct from Egypt and Jordan and with zero aspiration towards joining any sort of grand pan-Arab state.

[patzer]

No one enters the West Bank without Israel permission. I happen to be a Palestinian American who has traveled to the West Bank. BTW Fatah is the group choosen by Israel to lead the West Bank. The IDF collects taxes for them!

The same group chosen by Israel to lead the West Bank? The same group the IDF collects taxes for?

The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The majority of the Gaza Strip was born after this election

Hamas only won a pluraity, not a majority. And they did not run on a violence platform back in 2006 either

The fact that the Israeli government collaborates with Fatah out of convenience doesn't make Fatah any less fundamentally evil. How do you think the international community would react if Israel were to institute a policy that any settler who kills a Palestinian civilian will not only never face any legal consequences but will also receive a lifetime pension from the Israeli government as a reward for doing so? It would obviously be described as a genocidal/fascist policy and correctly so.

And yet does any relevant Palestinian party openly oppose pay to slay? Fatah and Hamas both openly back it. An overwhelming majority of votes in the 2006 election were for fascist parties. It wouldn't even surprise me if it were 100%.

[GoTfan]

No one enters the West Bank without Israel permission. I happen to be a Palestinian American who has traveled to the West Bank. BTW Fatah is the group choosen by Israel to lead the West Bank. The IDF collects taxes for them!

The same group chosen by Israel to lead the West Bank? The same group the IDF collects taxes for?

The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The majority of the Gaza Strip was born after this election

Hamas only won a pluraity, not a majority. And they did not run on a violence platform back in 2006 either

The fact that the Israeli government collaborates with Fatah out of convenience doesn't make Fatah any less fundamentally evil. How do you think the international community would react if Israel were to institute a policy that any settler who kills a Palestinian civilian will not only never face any legal consequences but will also receive a lifetime pension from the Israeli government as a reward for doing so? It would obviously be described as a genocidal/fascist policy and correctly so.

And yet does any relevant Palestinian party openly oppose pay to slay? Fatah and Hamas both openly back it. An overwhelming majority of votes in the 2006 election were for fascist parties. It wouldn't even surprise me if it were 100%.

When was the last time any settlers faced legal consequences for violating the law?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

No one enters the West Bank without Israel permission. I happen to be a Palestinian American who has traveled to the West Bank. BTW Fatah is the group choosen by Israel to lead the West Bank. The IDF collects taxes for them!

The same group chosen by Israel to lead the West Bank? The same group the IDF collects taxes for?

The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The majority of the Gaza Strip was born after this election

Hamas only won a pluraity, not a majority. And they did not run on a violence platform back in 2006 either

The fact that the Israeli government collaborates with Fatah out of convenience doesn't make Fatah any less fundamentally evil. How do you think the international community would react if Israel were to institute a policy that any settler who kills a Palestinian civilian will not only never face any legal consequences but will also receive a lifetime pension from the Israeli government as a reward for doing so? It would obviously be described as a genocidal/fascist policy and correctly so.

And yet does any relevant Palestinian party openly oppose pay to slay? Fatah and Hamas both openly back it. An overwhelming majority of votes in the 2006 election were for fascist parties. It wouldn't even surprise me if it were 100%.

When was the last time any settlers faced legal consequences for violating the law?

Settlers are coddled. Prove me wrong.

[Pres Mike]

No one enters the West Bank without Israel permission. I happen to be a Palestinian American who has traveled to the West Bank. BTW Fatah is the group choosen by Israel to lead the West Bank. The IDF collects taxes for them!

The same group chosen by Israel to lead the West Bank? The same group the IDF collects taxes for?

The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The majority of the Gaza Strip was born after this election

Hamas only won a pluraity, not a majority. And they did not run on a violence platform back in 2006 either

The fact that the Israeli government collaborates with Fatah out of convenience doesn't make Fatah any less fundamentally evil. How do you think the international community would react if Israel were to institute a policy that any settler who kills a Palestinian civilian will not only never face any legal consequences but will also receive a lifetime pension from the Israeli government as a reward for doing so? It would obviously be described as a genocidal/fascist policy and correctly so.

And yet does any relevant Palestinian party openly oppose pay to slay? Fatah and Hamas both openly back it. An overwhelming majority of votes in the 2006 election were for fascist parties. It wouldn't even surprise me if it were 100%.

Israeli settlers mostly commit violence with imprunity, on free land. Very rarely are they punished for violence. And they get all the benefits of the Israeli state, like garbage pickup

[patzer]

When was the last time any settlers faced legal consequences for violating the law?

Every time? For example last year two settlers ended up in court over it https://www.jns.org/israel-palestinianconflict/palestinian-terrorism/23/8/6/308058/

There is certainly an argument to be made that sentencing and punishment of such attackers is too lenient, but the fact they even ended up in court at all shows how incomparable the two situations are.

If a Palestinian murdered a Jewish civilian, it would never be seen as a crime or go to court. The PA's policy is to reward the murderer with a lifetime pension.

[Pres Mike]

When was the last time any settlers faced legal consequences for violating the law?

Every time? For example last year two settlers ended up in court over it https://www.jns.org/israel-palestinianconflict/palestinian-terrorism/23/8/6/308058/

There is certainly an argument to be made that sentencing and punishment of such attackers is too lenient, but the fact they even ended up in court at all shows how incomparable the two situations are.

If a Palestinian murdered a Jewish civilian, it would never be seen as a crime or go to court. The PA's policy is to reward the murderer with a lifetime pension.

There are thousands of Palestinians in Israeli prisons. Many for bull charges and never get a trial. You really think the IDF is going to allow an Israeli civilan to get killed? When three teenagers were killed in 2014, there was a huge military operation to find them.

Meanwhile, there are hundreds of cases a year of Israeli settlers killing and attacking Palestinians. My grandfather's car was destroyed by Israeli settlers. And burning homes. Most go unpunished
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

[patzer]

There are thousands of Palestinians in Israeli prisons. Many for bull charges and never get a trial. You really think the IDF is going to allow an Israeli civilan to get killed? When three teenagers were killed in 2014, there was a huge military operation to find them.

Meanwhile, there are hundreds of cases a year of Israeli settlers killing and attacking Palestinians. My grandfather's car was destroyed by Israeli settlers. And burning homes. Most go unpunished
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

The IDF is not infallible and cannot stave off all attacks on civilians when there's a terror quasi-state on the doorstep.

Israeli settler violence exists, yes. It is bad, yes. It is a thing which the Israeli state prosecutes and aims to prevent. One can argue that it's prosecuted too leniently. But it's not even remotely comparable in the scale of pure evil to pay-to-slay being fully endorsed by the Palestinian Authority.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

There are thousands of Palestinians in Israeli prisons. Many for bull charges and never get a trial. You really think the IDF is going to allow an Israeli civilan to get killed? When three teenagers were killed in 2014, there was a huge military operation to find them.

Meanwhile, there are hundreds of cases a year of Israeli settlers killing and attacking Palestinians. My grandfather's car was destroyed by Israeli settlers. And burning homes. Most go unpunished
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

The IDF is not infallible and cannot stave off all attacks on civilians when there's a terror quasi-state on the doorstep.

Israeli settler violence exists, yes. It is bad, yes. It is a thing which the Israeli state prosecutes and aims to prevent. One can argue that it's prosecuted too leniently. But it's not even remotely comparable in the scale of pure evil to pay-to-slay being fully endorsed by the Palestinian Authority.

The Israelis don't pay the families of prisoners in Palestinian jails because Israelis who commit crimes in the West Bank don't go to Palestinian jails, they get tried by their fellow Israelis and almost always get off with a slap on the wrist. There's no need for an explicit Israeli "pay to slay" policy because the settlers are paid in whatever they can loot from the pillaged homes and bodies of Palestinians and they hardly have to worry about repercussions since the PA can't arrest them and the IDF protects them from the Palestinians, not vice versa. Videos abound of the IDF literally standing guard as West Bank settlers destroy property and attack people. If said settlers were to be injured by Palestinians defending themselves from illegal attack then the IDF would intervene to arrest the Palestinians and would doubtless call them terrorists and have them locked away forever by the Israeli kangaroo military court. Then you would use said example as proof of how these terrible Palestinians just keep getting violent against innocent Israeli settlers

It's absolutely mindboggling to me that anyone can look at the situation in the West Bank and conclude that the Israelis are the victims. The mere fact that there are settlers at all is a blatant violation of international law, never mind that they're given state protection to forcibly remove people from their homes. And yeah, it isn't remotely comparable, go look up how many Palestinians are killed by Israelis compared with the reverse.

[GALeftist]

Polling might be slightly dated, but in theory Gantz could form a coalition with just his party, Yair Lapid's party and Labor. No need for Lieberman

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

I'm not sure what makes you think I am confusing it with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority's pay-to-slay policy directly funds terrorists who kill Israeli civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Hopefully one day the PA will be consigned to history and its members put on trial for their crimes. At the very least there should be strict sanctions against them and a total blockade.

What do you think the long term solution is to end the violence you reference, patzer?

The first step is justice for those like Hallel Yaffa Ariel who were murdered in cold blood by state endorsed terror. Members of Fatah and Hamas need to face trials in the same way the Nazis did, with trials of all of the collaborators.

When it comes to rooting out evil, there's no compromise with those who believe the cold blooded murder of children is something to celebrate.

This is not an answer. What is your long term vision for peace?

[Meclazine for Israel]

The internationally recognized Fatah led Palestinian Authority isn't a terror state. You are confusing it with Hamas

The PA is internationally recognised as funding anti-Israeli terrorists to the tune of US$300M per annum.

Their logo is based on the Third Reich.

I doubt if anyone believed this, but just in case, it's not true.  The eagle is a symbol of pan-Arabism based on Saladin's double-headed eagle, in particular this eagle carving (likely originally double-headed) in the Citadel of Saladin in Cairo (which, incidentally, I have visited, although the once double-headed eagle didn't catch my eye):






What's ironic, of course, is that despite the eagle being a symbol of pan-Arabism, the modern Palestinian cause is emblematic of the failure of that movement.  As we all know, fifty years ago the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt, during a time when Egypt was part of the United Arab Republic.  And the West Bank was part of Jordan, which was half of the Arab Federation.  Both the UAR and the AF aspired to become pan-Arab empires.  Now not only do those states no longer exist, but Egypt and Jordan respectively want nothing to do with the regions of Israel they once controlled, regions which have now transitioned to Palestinian nationalism, and the dream of creating an independent state completely distinct from Egypt and Jordan and with zero aspiration towards joining any sort of grand pan-Arab state.

Looks like the Nazi's stole it off the Arabs.

[patzer]

The first step is justice for those like Hallel Yaffa Ariel who were murdered in cold blood by state endorsed terror. Members of Fatah and Hamas need to face trials in the same way the Nazis did, with trials of all of the collaborators.

When it comes to rooting out evil, there's no compromise with those who believe the cold blooded murder of children is something to celebrate.

This is not an answer. What is your long term vision for peace?

One state solution is the only way. Israel is the only successor state to the British Mandatory Palestine in existence and the only state with any sort of claim to the region, and modern Palestinian nationalism is explicitly antisemitic including pushing for the ethnic cleansing of all Jewish settlements from a hypothetical Palestinian state.

So I'd say something along the lines of, Israel formally declares the West Bank and Gaza Strip as being part of Israel, recognizes Arabic as a national language and Arab Israelis as a national minority group. Make it so that Arab residents of the West Bank/Gaza can get Israeli citizenship if they want it (along with the responsibilities that comes with like IDF service). Anyone who engages in collaboration with terror groups like Hamas is deported with their property seized by the Israeli state and given to victims of Hamas attacks and their families as compensation; the higher up terror leaders should face life in prison (I'm pro-life and oppose the death penalty on principle no matter how evil someone's actions are). And gradually remove the checkpoints in the West Bank and so on as it becomes safe to do so.

[Meclazine for Israel]

132 Hostages Remain

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C04WJi0N8lt/

Only 110 are alive. 22 dead bodies are being held hostage. Apparently, that is a thing in Palestine.

2 babies still in captivity.

Purely depraved people.

[Pres Mike]

The first step is justice for those like Hallel Yaffa Ariel who were murdered in cold blood by state endorsed terror. Members of Fatah and Hamas need to face trials in the same way the Nazis did, with trials of all of the collaborators.

When it comes to rooting out evil, there's no compromise with those who believe the cold blooded murder of children is something to celebrate.

This is not an answer. What is your long term vision for peace?

One state solution is the only way. Israel is the only successor state to the British Mandatory Palestine in existence and the only state with any sort of claim to the region, and modern Palestinian nationalism is explicitly antisemitic including pushing for the ethnic cleansing of all Jewish settlements from a hypothetical Palestinian state.

So I'd say something along the lines of, Israel formally declares the West Bank and Gaza Strip as being part of Israel, recognizes Arabic as a national language and Arab Israelis as a national minority group. Make it so that Arab residents of the West Bank/Gaza can get Israeli citizenship if they want it (along with the responsibilities that comes with like IDF service). Anyone who engages in collaboration with terror groups like Hamas is deported with their property seized by the Israeli state and given to victims of Hamas attacks and their families as compensation; the higher up terror leaders should face life in prison (I'm pro-life and oppose the death penalty on principle no matter how evil someone's actions are). And gradually remove the checkpoints in the West Bank and so on as it becomes safe to do so.

The Palestinians want a one state solution more than they want a two state solution. Israel's population is already 20% Arab (Arabic is a semi official language already btw). Combined with the Arabs in Gaza and West Bank, its roughly equal to the number of Jewish residents. With Arabs having higher birthrates, Israel would be majority Arab in 10-20 years.

Not even the most liberal Israelis want this

Even if the Ultra Orthodox and Hardei keep the birthrates up so Arabs don't reach 50.01%, there really is no appetite in Israel for giving Arabs equal political power

[CumbrianLefty]

Looks like the Nazi's stole it off the Arabs.

They stole lots of things from lots of people - their "kitsch" was almost entirely borrowed.

[patzer]

The Palestinians want a one state solution more than they want a two state solution. Israel's population is already 20% Arab (Arabic is a semi official language already btw). Combined with the Arabs in Gaza and West Bank, its roughly equal to the number of Jewish residents. With Arabs having higher birthrates, Israel would be majority Arab in 10-20 years.

Not even the most liberal Israelis want this

Even if the Ultra Orthodox and Hardei keep the birthrates up so Arabs don't reach 50.01%, there really is no appetite in Israel for giving Arabs equal political power

The reason most Israelis don't want this is because they're well aware that the predominant current in Palestinian politics is not in favour of a one-state solution which respects Israel's status as a safe haven for Jews, but rather deeply antisemitic with a desire to drive out Jews.

If it were a decision unilaterally made by an Israeli government with provisions for deporting those who assist groups like Hamas, I think it'd be much more likely to be accepted by the Israeli public.

[Pres Mike]

The Palestinians want a one state solution more than they want a two state solution. Israel's population is already 20% Arab (Arabic is a semi official language already btw). Combined with the Arabs in Gaza and West Bank, its roughly equal to the number of Jewish residents. With Arabs having higher birthrates, Israel would be majority Arab in 10-20 years.

Not even the most liberal Israelis want this

Even if the Ultra Orthodox and Hardei keep the birthrates up so Arabs don't reach 50.01%, there really is no appetite in Israel for giving Arabs equal political power

The reason most Israelis don't want this is because they're well aware that the predominant current in Palestinian politics is not in favour of a one-state solution which respects Israel's status as a safe haven for Jews, but rather deeply antisemitic with a desire to drive out Jews.

If it were a decision unilaterally made by an Israeli government with provisions for deporting those who assist groups like Hamas, I think it'd be much more likely to be accepted by the Israeli public.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. You are clearly pulling nonsense out. I happen to have a Masters degree in political science. I am also a government/civics teacher and a Palestinian American

My last point. Palestinians would love a one state solution but most Israelis do not want to live in a majority Arab state. Which on some level, I understand. If Arabs became the majority in a one state solution, which they are predicted to be in 10-20 years, Israel as a whole basically becomes "Palestine"