Israel-Gaza war

[PeteB]

With the new UNRWA allegations proving to be true, things are not looking good for the end of the war.  Netanyahu now has enough proof to claim international conspiracy and continue the war.  In fact, and in spite of what Israel says (under US pressure), I believe that any autonomous government in Gaza is now not going to happen in any scenario.

I cannot fathom what Hamas wanted to achieve in October.  They have set back the Palestinian cause by over 50 years and perhaps doomed the chances of an internationally recognized Palestinian state permanently.  Yes, Israel reacted disproportionately and civillians are hurting, perhaps they are even engaging in genocidal activities, but did the Hamas leadership really expect anything else?

It seems likely that Hamas was hoping that Hezbollah and the West Bank/Jordan would follow suit, pulling off similar incursions inspired by them and causing six figures of casualties and taking thousands of hostages. When that failed to emerge, all they were left with was an enraged Israel that was still intact enough to respond with overwhelming, unending force.

If that was the case, why not get buy-in from Hezbollah, Iran, Syria before attempting such a ruthless, cruel and kamikaze act?  Why even attack the various kibbutz?  Overrunning the border and IDF positions was embarassing enough to Israel, without cruelty and sadism to civillians.

[GoTfan]

With the new UNRWA allegations proving to be true, things are not looking good for the end of the war.  Netanyahu now has enough proof to claim international conspiracy and continue the war.  In fact, and in spite of what Israel says (under US pressure), I believe that any autonomous government in Gaza is now not going to happen in any scenario.

I cannot fathom what Hamas wanted to achieve in October.  They have set back the Palestinian cause by over 50 years and perhaps doomed the chances of an internationally recognized Palestinian state permanently.  Yes, Israel reacted disproportionately and civillians are hurting, perhaps they are even engaging in genocidal activities, but did the Hamas leadership really expect anything else?

It seems likely that Hamas was hoping that Hezbollah and the West Bank/Jordan would follow suit, pulling off similar incursions inspired by them and causing six figures of casualties and taking thousands of hostages. When that failed to emerge, all they were left with was an enraged Israel that was still intact enough to respond with overwhelming, unending force.

All the UN agencies were pro-Hamas from before Oct 7.

Hamas were not expecting Israel to run over the top of them so easily. They could see the Western money coming in. They had direct links to CNN, NY Times, ABC and BBC.

Hamas thought hiding behind civilians, schools and hospitals was the 'perfect' defence.

As the Israeli's attacked, Hamas simply activated their UN-backed media show. The same UN who helped the Serbs split men and boys away from woman and girls which enabled the Srebrinica massacre. One of the last people those 9,000 victims saw before their execution was a UN peacekeeping soldier.

As with Bosnia, these so called 'expert' UN media reports now read in a totally different light.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/gaza-un-experts-decry-bombing-hospitals-and-schools-crimes-against-humanity

Unbelievably, one of the UN experts in that report is an expert on sexual violence against women. And she blames Israel.

Hamas had an idea that reporting from Hospitals with their fighters in UN vests would gain enough international sympathy to stop Israel.

UNRWA Report

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2nPTAaLJXe/

Unless you think about it for more than five minutes.

[Pres Mike]

You guys need to decide.  Either (A) Hamas is the duly-elected authentic representative government of Gaza and can, as a state actor, declare war on the State of Israel on behalf of the Palestinians of Gaza, or (B) Hamas is a group of terrorist thugs who hold the weak, pitiable, helpless Palestinians of Gaza captive against their will, and thus the Palestinians are not responsible in any way whatsoever for the actions of their elected government.

The second option

Hamas was never elected. They won a plurality of seats in the 2006 legislative election but did not run on the current Islamic violence platform

They were weren’t allowed to form a government with them as the governing party, they illegally and violently seized control of the Gaza Strip

[Meclazine for Israel]

Hamas releases video of 3 previously unseen hostages.

Three Girls Held in Gaza

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2k_7jIyrUb/

Hamas probably think they are getting Western sympathy by releasing these videos.

And then when Hamas release them, Al Jazeera will show a video of the release with the hostages saying how the men with black hoods and green bandannas were the kindest men on the planet.

It's obtuse.

[Upper Canada Tory]

You guys need to decide.  Either (A) Hamas is the duly-elected authentic representative government of Gaza and can, as a state actor, declare war on the State of Israel on behalf of the Palestinians of Gaza, or (B) Hamas is a group of terrorist thugs who hold the weak, pitiable, helpless Palestinians of Gaza captive against their will, and thus the Palestinians are not responsible in any way whatsoever for the actions of their elected government.

The second option

Hamas was never elected. They won a plurality of seats in the 2006 legislative election but did not run on the current Islamic violence platform

They were weren’t allowed to form a government with them as the governing party, they illegally and violently seized control of the Gaza Strip

This is the part that people forget. Hamas is not the legitimate government of Gaza - the Palestinian Authority is. Hamas was elected to govern the area under a unity government within the framework of the PA, which they overthrew in favour of essentially being a one-party state supported by militant groups.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Some Palestinians Want to Leave Gaza. Let Them.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/01/let-palestinians-leave-gaza/677196/

Interesting article. Let's see if Egypt walks the walk.

As the duly constituted authorities, HAMAS is entitled to control all hospitals.

I don't think the title was clear perhaps. The Gazan's want out of this Hamas fantasy you are suggesting has some form of international legitimacy.

The Gazan families have had enough, they want out to Egypt, away from the war. They don't care who is fighting. They just want out whether they return or not.

If you asked 1M Gazan's if they want to leave Gaza through Rafah Border and never come back, don't be surprised if 90% of them are Egyptian refugees by this afternoon.

If they want to leave, let them.

[Pres Mike]

Some Palestinians Want to Leave Gaza. Let Them.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/01/let-palestinians-leave-gaza/677196/

Interesting article. Let's see if Egypt walks the walk.

As the duly constituted authorities, HAMAS is entitled to control all hospitals.

I don't think the title was clear perhaps. The Gazan's want out of this Hamas fantasy you are suggesting has some form of international legitimacy.

The Gazan families have had enough, they want out to Egypt, away from the war. They don't care who is fighting. They just want out whether they return or not.

If you asked 1M Gazan's if they want to leave Gaza through Rafah Border and never come back, don't be surprised if 90% of them are Egyptian refugees by this afternoon.

If they want to leave, let them.

I keep telling you, that isn’t true. The Sinai is a desert, Gaza is not. 90% of 1 million displaced Palestinians do not want to live in tents in the desert.

I am Palestinian. How do folks think they know more than me. A huge fear in Gaza is a Nakba 2.0. A forced displacement with no chance of return

Quite frankly, this is a racist line of thought. It implies that the Palestinians are a bunch of savages fighting for sand

[PeteB]

Some Palestinians Want to Leave Gaza. Let Them.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/01/let-palestinians-leave-gaza/677196/

Interesting article. Let's see if Egypt walks the walk.

As the duly constituted authorities, HAMAS is entitled to control all hospitals.

I don't think the title was clear perhaps. The Gazan's want out of this Hamas fantasy you are suggesting has some form of international legitimacy.

The Gazan families have had enough, they want out to Egypt, away from the war. They don't care who is fighting. They just want out whether they return or not.

If you asked 1M Gazan's if they want to leave Gaza through Rafah Border and never come back, don't be surprised if 90% of them are Egyptian refugees by this afternoon.

If they want to leave, let them.

I keep telling you, that isn’t true. The Sinai is a desert, Gaza is not. 90% of 1 million displaced Palestinians do not want to live in tents in the desert.

I am Palestinian. How do folks think they know more than me. A huge fear in Gaza is a Nakba 2.0. A forced displacement with no chance of return

Quite frankly, this is a racist line of thought. It implies that the Palestinians are a bunch of savages fighting for sand

I will echo these words.  Palestinians want a homeland to live in.  Being a refugee is no fun.  Part of the issue here is Hamas' rise in Gaza, but that is not entirely the fault of Palestinians. They have been stuck between an ineffective Fatah-led Palestinian Authority and the hotheads of Hamas,.  But, being in the current hell is not going to motivate them to start up moderate parties.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

Agreed, the current situation is simply not sustainable for either side.

[BigSkyBob]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

What a great way to say, "Crime against humanity about to occur." Prior to the attack two-hundred-thousand Gaza residents snuck into Israel for work. That created stability among those workers, and their families. Now, that has been completely destabilized. Short of mass transfer, it is instability for the foreseeable future. Mass transfer simply is not "acceptable" in a way. It is a recognized crime against humanity.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

What a great way to say, "Crime against humanity about to occur." Prior to the attack two-hundred-thousand Gaza residents snuck into Israel for work. That created stability among those workers, and their families. Now, that has been completely destabilized. Short of mass transfer, it is instability for the foreseeable future. Mass transfer simply is not "acceptable" in a way. It is a recognized crime against humanity.

Don't throw out your back with that reach. My post was agreeing with those saying a mass transfer wouldn't be a feasible solution.

[Lief 🗽]

NYT: Negotiators Close In on Hostage Deal That Would Halt Fighting in Gaza for Weeks

American-led negotiators are edging closer to an agreement in which Israel would suspend its war in Gaza for about two months in exchange for the release of more than 100 hostages still held by Hamas, a deal that could be sealed in the next two weeks and would transform the conflict consuming the region.

Negotiators have developed a written draft agreement merging proposals offered by Israel and Hamas in the last 10 days into a basic framework that will be the subject of talks in Paris on Sunday. While there are still important disagreements to be worked out, negotiators are cautiously optimistic that a final accord is within reach, according to U.S. officials who insisted on anonymity to discuss sensitive talks.

...

The deal now coming together would be more expansive in scope than the previous one, officials say. In the first phase, fighting would stop for about 30 days while women, elderly and wounded hostages were released by Hamas. During that period, the two sides would work out details of a second phase that would suspend military operations for roughly another 30 days in exchange for Israeli soldiers and male civilians being held. The ratio of Palestinians to be released from Israeli prisons is still to be negotiated but that is viewed as a solvable issue. The deal would also allow for more humanitarian aid into Gaza.

While the agreement would not be the permanent cease-fire that Hamas has demanded for the release of all hostages, officials close to the talks believe that if Israel halts the war for two months, it would likely not resume it in the same way that it has waged it until now. The truce would provide a window for further diplomacy that could lead to a broader resolution of the conflict.

[BigSkyBob]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

What a great way to say, "Crime against humanity about to occur." Prior to the attack two-hundred-thousand Gaza residents snuck into Israel for work. That created stability among those workers, and their families. Now, that has been completely destabilized. Short of mass transfer, it is instability for the foreseeable future. Mass transfer simply is not "acceptable" in a way. It is a recognized crime against humanity.

Don't throw out your back with that reach. My post was agreeing with those saying a mass transfer wouldn't be a feasible solution.

It is word salad to claim a more "stable" resolution is going to occur when Gaza has been radicalized.

[patzer]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

What a great way to say, "Crime against humanity about to occur." Prior to the attack two-hundred-thousand Gaza residents snuck into Israel for work. That created stability among those workers, and their families. Now, that has been completely destabilized. Short of mass transfer, it is instability for the foreseeable future. Mass transfer simply is not "acceptable" in a way. It is a recognized crime against humanity.

Maybe the people of Gaza should have tried to replace Hamas with a slightly less fascist government then, stop their government from starting a war of aggression and mass killing.

[GoTfan]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

I think the problem is that there is a solution that is fair an equitable out there waiting, but it's not one Netanyahu nor Hamas have any interest in finding. For Hamas, they get to radicalise more and more of the population. For Netanyahu, he gets to stay in power longer and longer.

[GeneralMacArthur]

If Palestinians deserve to be bombed and starved to death for the crimes of Hamas then what should happen to Americans for the crimes of Bush or Israelis for the crimes of Netanyahu?

It seems Hamas are already applying that logic - and it's not working out for them because Israel can kill far more effectively than they can.

After George W. Bush declared war on Iraq on behalf of America, I think if Saddam Hussein had had the capability to strike military targets on American soil he would have been perfectly entitled to do so.  Like if he had bombed JBLM I wouldn't be crying about how those poor soldiers and the civilian contractors who work on base, and the civilians who work at the Taco Bell off-post who got blown up as collateral damage, none of them deserve this because they didn't vote for Bush.

[Meclazine for Israel]

This guy needs to be sacked.


(CNN 28 Jan 2024)

Either (i) he knew the UNRWA staff were active in the October 7 attacks, or (ii) he had no idea about the UNRWA staff involved in the beheading and raping of Israeli civilians.

Either situation is unacceptable as a leader, and certainly, a huge stain on the reputation of the UN agencies in the region.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-chief-asks-donors-to-reconsider-as-germany-joins-cascade-freezing-funds/

The UN aid should be contingent on the release of all Israeli hostages. Why are we sending money to terrorist organisations with the funds used to murder and kidnap civilians?

[CumbrianLefty]

Yeah, whatever comes next, there will have to be some hard decisions made to protect Israel's security and ensure a stable and acceptable resolution for the Palestinian people happens -and Netanyahu and his goon squad are uniquely unqualified to deal with it.

What a great way to say, "Crime against humanity about to occur." Prior to the attack two-hundred-thousand Gaza residents snuck into Israel for work. That created stability among those workers, and their families. Now, that has been completely destabilized. Short of mass transfer, it is instability for the foreseeable future. Mass transfer simply is not "acceptable" in a way. It is a recognized crime against humanity.

Maybe the people of Gaza should have tried to replace Hamas with a slightly less fascist government then, stop their government from starting a war of aggression and mass killing.

And maybe Israel should stop having literal genocidal monsters like Ben-Gvir in its government.

[GoTfan]

This guy needs to be sacked.


(CNN 28 Jan 2024)

Either (i) he knew the UNRWA staff were active in the October 7 attacks, or (ii) he had no idea about the UNRWA staff involved in the beheading and raping of Israeli civilians.

Either situation is unacceptable as a leader, and certainly, a huge stain on the reputation of the UN agencies in the region.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-chief-asks-donors-to-reconsider-as-germany-joins-cascade-freezing-funds/

The UN aid should be contingent on the release of all Israeli hostages. Why are we sending money to terrorist organisations with the funds used to murder and kidnap civilians?

Probably because not everyone in Gaza had a role in the attacks or is a Hamas supporter? I dunno man, I think you're letting the racism show a bit.

[Velasco]

This guy needs to be sacked.


(CNN 28 Jan 2024)

Either (i) he knew the UNRWA staff were active in the October 7 attacks, or (ii) he had no idea about the UNRWA staff involved in the beheading and raping of Israeli civilians.

Either situation is unacceptable as a leader, and certainly, a huge stain on the reputation of the UN agencies in the region.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-chief-asks-donors-to-reconsider-as-germany-joins-cascade-freezing-funds/

The UN aid should be contingent on the release of all Israeli hostages. Why are we sending money to terrorist organisations with the funds used to murder and kidnap civilians?

Probably because not everyone in Gaza had a role in the attacks or is a Hamas supporter? I dunno man, I think you're letting the racism show a bit.

Indeed. The URNWA is irreplaceable. It's a disgrace that some of the local employees are allegedly involved in the Hamas attacks, but they have been fired and the UN condemns terrorism. Claiming the URNWA is a "terrorist organization" is abhorrent. Thousands of lives in Gaza rely on humanitarian aid and it's a shame the US and other western nations are cutting funds when the situation on the ground is beyond dramatic, just one day after the ICJ ruling.

 Destroying the URNWA is a stated goal of some people in Israel. The statements below date back to Jan 4

https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1751480836682399772?t=MWTAhk_q_gKdY9boy...

[Meclazine for Israel]

Families of Israeli hostages are protesting the delivery of aid to Palestinians.

Kerem Shalom Crossing

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2pOOQ6LkSl/

There hasn't been a lot of pressure from UN aid agencies on Hamas to release hostages.

Hopefully, Hamas start to feel the international pressure on them to release the remaining hostages.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

If Palestinians deserve to be bombed and starved to death for the crimes of Hamas then what should happen to Americans for the crimes of Bush or Israelis for the crimes of Netanyahu?

It seems Hamas are already applying that logic - and it's not working out for them because Israel can kill far more effectively than they can.

Hamas was under no delusion that they could match the firepower of the IDF. Their short run objectives were to kidnap a bunch of soldiers to later exchange for high value prisoners, to provoke a disproportionate backlash that would destroy Israel's diplomatic position and to come out of said backlash still in control of Gaza. As things stand even the Israeli hardliners are beginning to recognize that resettlement is unrealistic and that the best they can get is a (still illegal under international law) "buffer zone" within Gaza. While they won't admit it publicly, even they can see that Hamas will still control Gaza when the fighting stops, and that's all they need to do after Netanyahu's bluster.

If Palestinians deserve to be bombed and starved to death for the crimes of Hamas then what should happen to Americans for the crimes of Bush or Israelis for the crimes of Netanyahu?

It seems Hamas are already applying that logic - and it's not working out for them because Israel can kill far more effectively than they can.

After George W. Bush declared war on Iraq on behalf of America, I think if Saddam Hussein had had the capability to strike military targets on American soil he would have been perfectly entitled to do so.  Like if he had bombed JBLM I wouldn't be crying about how those poor soldiers and the civilian contractors who work on base, and the civilians who work at the Taco Bell off-post who got blown up as collateral damage, none of them deserve this because they didn't vote for Bush.

Look Mac, you know as well as I do that nobody here is complaining that Israel is hitting legitimate military targets. The analogy isn't "Saddam hitting military bases", it's

* Saddam hitting civilian infrastructure, including sewage and electricity
* Saddam blowing up entire apartment blocks because an off duty reservist lives there
* Saddam blowing up entire apartment blocks because they're "power targets" and could demoralize Americans into surrendering
* Saddam blowing up banks and businesses because they once dealt with the US Federal Government
* Saddam imposing a total blockade on America, preventing the entry of food, water and fuel
* Saddam forcibly abducting American civilians to be tortured at mass detention facilities
* Saddam systematically targeting for assassination university professors, doctors, surgeons, journalists and other "high value" civilians
* Saddam's soldiers plundering American homes, posting it to TikTok and proudly announcing that there are no uninvolved civilians in America

[Liminal Trans Girl]

heres the solution, make the UK sort this out. they got us into this mess, they can fix the mess that they started

[Progressive Pessimist]

heres the solution, make the UK sort this out. they got us into this mess, they can fix the mess that they started

I am not opposed to this.