BREAKING: US has traded Russian arms dealer, Viktor Bout (Merchant of Death) for Brittney Griner

[GP270watch]

The Israelis who nobody would ever excuse of being soft, will trade multiple bad dudes to get back one of their citizens. They do it because they value their people and their citizens. I support what Biden did, Viktor Bout can be dealt with later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_prisoner_exchanges#2010s

From what I can see these Israeli exchanges were for Israeli soldiers, not civilians. Are there significant exchanges Israel has done to free Israeli civilians who were kidnapped/detained arbitrarily?

I think if Griner were a soldier (or a US intelligence asset), there would be no possible objection to trading for her return.

But trading for civilians is a different matter, and sets up the precedent that could possibly lead to open season for kidnapping American civilians abroad more generally. That will presumably not happen as a result of a single case, but if this is a pattern with how the US deals with these sorts of things, then we could start seeing an upsurge in hostage taking/kidnapping of random American civilians.

  Military service is mandatory in Israel with some exceptions so this might be distinction without a difference.

[Ferguson97]

My gut reaction was that this was a bad deal, but this article by a well-respected national security journalist brought an interesting perspective:

So why even consider the potential offer? First, Bout is a spent force who will be out of jail in a few years anyway. His business depended on personal relationships and trust among the parties. After being out of the business for more than a decade, Bout has neither of those left in the shadowy world in which he once operated. Second, Bout needed access to a global network stretching from Afghanistan to Europe, Africa and South America. That network has morphed through several generations of new actors, markets and gatekeepers. Bout has no currency in that world now.

Finally, Bout depended in the early years on the gross negligence of the former Soviet states to allow him to simply fly out aircraft and weapons in a spree of de facto privatization of one of the world’s most advanced arsenals. In his later years, he was reined in by the Russian state under Putin, no longer able to freelance at will and without unfettered access to massive caches of weapons. It is unlikely he would have any freedom of movement in the weapons trade unless he was in the direct service of the Russian intelligence services, and now he is burned beyond the ability to be useful in any significant capacity.

[GP270watch]

Wonder if she starts standing for the National Anthem now.

 Griner has represented her country 4 times in international competition with 4 Gold medals, 2 Olympic golds and 2 World Cup golds. So your take is very stupid.

[lfromnj]

Everyone spent the last year demanding that Biden free Brittney Griner and literally demanding he make this exact deal once the media started reporting it as a possibility.

Now that he's actually done it, there's nothing to be gained from continuing to pretend to care about Brittney Griner.  So all the Biden haters have switched overnight to talking about what a lopsided deal it is and how horrible it is that Biden set free the notorious Viktor Bout (a guy you'd never heard of before all this).

Meanwhile all the Do-Something-ers will do what they always do -- completely memory-hole this entire incident now that Biden has actually achieved success, and simply move on to the next "crisis" that offers proof of Biden's ineptitude.

What? I never demanded for a second that Biden make this trade. This is the most retarded trade I’ve ever seen in my life.

Yeah I dont remember a single right winger calling for free Griner.

OTOH I do see a bunch of right wingers calling for Whelan to be freed instead who definitely did not deserve it unless he actually was a spy with a cover story.

[Joe Republic]

Good to see this innocent woman coming home.  Yes, innocent, because her "crime" is BS.

And yes it came at a heavy price, but that's unfortunately the way it goes when you are forced to negotiate with terrorists.

Who exactly was forcing us to negotiate?

The moral imperative of not leaving an innocent American citizen in some dungeon in Mordor.


(It's bizarre that your silly question with such an obvious answer got so many recommends, but here we are.)

[Santander]

Good to see this innocent woman coming home.  Yes, innocent, because her "crime" is BS.

And yes it came at a heavy price, but that's unfortunately the way it goes when you are forced to negotiate with terrorists.

Who exactly was forcing us to negotiate?

The moral imperative of not leaving an innocent American citizen in some dungeon in Mordor.


(It's bizarre that your silly question with such an obvious answer got so many recommends, but here we are.)

There are other moral imperatives, like the security risk of letting a major arms dealer go, undoing years of hard work by other Americans who spent time away from their families and put their lives on the line, and the invitation for any government to imprison American civilians to get their bad guys out of American prisons.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

My gut reaction was that this was a bad deal, but this article by a well-respected national security journalist brought an interesting perspective:

So why even consider the potential offer? First, Bout is a spent force who will be out of jail in a few years anyway. His business depended on personal relationships and trust among the parties. After being out of the business for more than a decade, Bout has neither of those left in the shadowy world in which he once operated. Second, Bout needed access to a global network stretching from Afghanistan to Europe, Africa and South America. That network has morphed through several generations of new actors, markets and gatekeepers. Bout has no currency in that world now.

Finally, Bout depended in the early years on the gross negligence of the former Soviet states to allow him to simply fly out aircraft and weapons in a spree of de facto privatization of one of the world’s most advanced arsenals. In his later years, he was reined in by the Russian state under Putin, no longer able to freelance at will and without unfettered access to massive caches of weapons. It is unlikely he would have any freedom of movement in the weapons trade unless he was in the direct service of the Russian intelligence services, and now he is burned beyond the ability to be useful in any significant capacity.

I'm sure Ukrainians would have been happy to let the Merchant of Death cool his heels in our prison for a few more years.

[Joe Republic]

Good to see this innocent woman coming home.  Yes, innocent, because her "crime" is BS.

And yes it came at a heavy price, but that's unfortunately the way it goes when you are forced to negotiate with terrorists.

Who exactly was forcing us to negotiate?

The moral imperative of not leaving an innocent American citizen in some dungeon in Mordor.


(It's bizarre that your silly question with such an obvious answer got so many recommends, but here we are.)

There are other moral imperatives, like the security risk of letting a major arms dealer go, undoing years of hard work by other Americans who spent time away from their families and put their lives on the line, and the invitation for any government to imprison American civilians to get their bad guys out of American prisons.

I'll direct your attention back to my first post, in which I acknowledged the high price that often comes with negotiating with terrorists.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Wonder if she starts standing for the National Anthem now.

 Griner has represented her country 4 times in international competition with 4 Gold medals, 2 Olympic golds and 2 World Cup golds. So your take is very stupid.

https://www.outsports.com/2020/7/29/21346824/brittney-griner-national-anthem-breonna-taylor-police-brutality-protest-wnba

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/28/brittney-griner-brianna-turner-call-wnba-stop-playing-national-anthem-this-season/

https://sports.yahoo.com/wnb-as-brittney-griner-national-anthem-has-no-place-in-wnba-sports-222810318.html

It took me 10 seconds to Google this. So your take is very stupid.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Good to see this innocent woman coming home.  Yes, innocent, because her "crime" is BS.

And yes it came at a heavy price, but that's unfortunately the way it goes when you are forced to negotiate with terrorists.

Who exactly was forcing us to negotiate?

The moral imperative of not leaving an innocent American citizen in some dungeon in Mordor.


(It's bizarre that your silly question with such an obvious answer got so many recommends, but here we are.)

There are other moral imperatives, like the security risk of letting a major arms dealer go, undoing years of hard work by other Americans who spent time away from their families and put their lives on the line, and the invitation for any government to imprison American civilians to get their bad guys out of American prisons.

I'll direct your attention back to my first post, in which I acknowledged the high price that often comes with negotiating with terrorists.

Which is why Horus suggested he not do so and was certainly not forced to do so. 

[GP270watch]

Wonder if she starts standing for the National Anthem now.

 Griner has represented her country 4 times in international competition with 4 Gold medals, 2 Olympic golds and 2 World Cup golds. So your take is very stupid.

https://www.outsports.com/2020/7/29/21346824/brittney-griner-national-anthem-breonna-taylor-police-brutality-protest-wnba

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/28/brittney-griner-brianna-turner-call-wnba-stop-playing-national-anthem-this-season/

https://sports.yahoo.com/wnb-as-brittney-griner-national-anthem-has-no-place-in-wnba-sports-222810318.html

It took me 10 seconds to Google this. So your take is very stupid.

 And yet she's represented her country time and time agin. From the very article you linked:

“I don’t mean that in any disrespect to our country. My dad was in Vietnam and a law officer for 30 years,” she said. “I wanted to be a cop before basketball. I do have pride for my country.”

 Her anthem protest was about her wanting a better country for everyone so again your take was extremely stupid.

 

[It’s so Joever]

Im sorry she shouldn’t have been in the country in the first place. And if she actually was in possession of marijuana in Russia…she dug her own grave. She was even advised against going because she “wanted to represent her team.” Well now she can play in the prison courtyard.
Not worth a ball player for a literal arms dealer.

[Хahar 🤔]

This is a great exchange because Brittney Griner is a great athlete, which makes her better and more important than you or me. If you have a problem with this you should learn not to hate women so much!

[SteveRogers]

Holy crap this is pathetic lol

For all the people we could've got we choose this irrelevant third rate semi-celebrity

Who, specifically, should we have gotten instead?

[Santander]

Holy crap this is pathetic lol

For all the people we could've got we choose this irrelevant third rate semi-celebrity

Who, specifically, should we have gotten instead?

Snowden

[Joe Republic]

Good to see this innocent woman coming home.  Yes, innocent, because her "crime" is BS.

And yes it came at a heavy price, but that's unfortunately the way it goes when you are forced to negotiate with terrorists.

Who exactly was forcing us to negotiate?

The moral imperative of not leaving an innocent American citizen in some dungeon in Mordor.


(It's bizarre that your silly question with such an obvious answer got so many recommends, but here we are.)

There are other moral imperatives, like the security risk of letting a major arms dealer go, undoing years of hard work by other Americans who spent time away from their families and put their lives on the line, and the invitation for any government to imprison American civilians to get their bad guys out of American prisons.

I'll direct your attention back to my first post, in which I acknowledged the high price that often comes with negotiating with terrorists.

Which is why Horus suggested he not do so and was certainly not forced to do so. 

The US government has a responsibility to rescue its citizens from imprisonment for committing bogus "crimes" in hellhole countries.

Anyway, sure, a mass murderer is now free as well.  I wouldn't feel too sorry if the CIA arranged a little oopsie-daisy once he's back on enemy territory.  I wasn't all that upset when Trump took out that Iranian general in an air strike either.

[ugabug]

Holy crap this is pathetic lol

For all the people we could've got we choose this irrelevant third rate semi-celebrity

Who, specifically, should we have gotten instead?

What about Marc Fogel? He's been there for a longer period of time than Griner and got arrested for essentially the same thing as Griner but hasn't received anywhere near the same amount of media coverage has Griner has.

[Santander]

The US government has a responsibility to rescue its citizens from imprisonment for committing bogus "crimes" in hellhole countries.

Consular services do not extend to negotiating someone's release from prison when they have actually committed a crime, even if the sentencing could be considered disproportionate to the crime. A crime for which, by the way, there are many thousands of Americans in prison for. Consular services are things like helping secure legal advice and representation, notifying loved ones, and facilitating visitation.

She is a civilian who broke the law, not a POW or spy.

[Horus]

Good to see this innocent woman coming home.  Yes, innocent, because her "crime" is BS.

And yes it came at a heavy price, but that's unfortunately the way it goes when you are forced to negotiate with terrorists.

Who exactly was forcing us to negotiate?

The moral imperative of not leaving an innocent American citizen in some dungeon in Mordor.


(It's bizarre that your silly question with such an obvious answer got so many recommends, but here we are.)

Do you think celebrity citizens should be prioritized over regular citizens?

[Santander]

I mean, I suppose there is a remote possibility she is an intelligence asset, but being a 6'9" black woman in Yekaterinburg without any real proximity to power, even if she technically worked for an oligarch, I can't imagine she'd be of any use.

[lfromnj]

Do Russians actually watch women's basketball or is it money laundering of some sort?

[ugabug]

Do Russians actually watch women's basketball or is it money laundering of some sort?

This being Russia money laundering seems to be the most likely answer.

[GP270watch]

Do Russians actually watch women's basketball or is it money laundering of some sort?

 It's a remnant of the Soviet sports system combined with the European club system for Football and Basketball. Both women's and men's Basketball were extremely popular and successful teams in Soviet international competition with the women actually having better results than the men.

[Santander]

Do Russians actually watch women's basketball or is it money laundering of some sort?

Americans don't watch women's basketball yet it exists.

[GP270watch]

Do Russians actually watch women's basketball or is it money laundering of some sort?

Americans don't watch women's basketball yet it exists.

 Proportionately Black men are actually the biggest TV watchers of women's professional basketball. It's women and white men who don't watch the WNBA based on their overall numbers.