DC Unrest Megathread

[Badger]

I didn't have Lindsey Graham being chased through an airport by an angry mob of Trumpists on my 2021 bingo card. lol

Serves him right.

Wait, what? Link?

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1347614091498557440

Hot take. In the last day or two of his presidency, Trump will pardon a number of these defendants.

anyway to reverse a pardon. Also couldnt some be applied for state charges as well? I mean it could happen

I won't 100% swear, but I'm pretty certain a presidential pardon is absolute. I believe the only way to reverse it, as I think may have been done it for some State pardons throughout our history, is to prove they were illegally obtained through bribery. In this case Trump will simply do it because he's rewarding his loyal little brownshirts.

Yes, State charges are theoretically possible, but I seriously wonder what kind of jurisdiction for criminal charges the DC government might have for invading the US Capitol.

[Badger]

Twitter is dropping the hammer on Trump's QAnon allies:

https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1347654102453538819?s=20

Are they hammering down on every proud boy and Q and an account? At least through the 20th? If not, that is absolutely weak.

[Badger]

Many, many Trump supporters are utterly embarassed at what has happened, IRL and on forum.

Sure, but the question therefore is; are they still Trump supporters?  The answer to that will tell us all we need to know.

No, even that doesn't go far enough. It's easy for these profile in Courage last-minute converts to democracy to reject Trump in the last week and a half of his presidency when he is irrelevant towards conservatives maintaining political power and advancing their agenda. If they don't oppose Trump ISM, which encompasses all those jackass congressmen, Senators, Governors, and hundreds of assorted Republican officials who full bore stood by and parotid Trump's Fantastical claims of election fraud and incitements for Direct action.

If they can't bring themselves to throw out those individuals for at bare minimum a sane Republican like Nancy Mays, Mitt Romney, John Kasich, Etc, or if not then bite the bullet and vote Democrat or third-party, then they've demonstrated they really don't give a crap. Between conservatism and democracy, they will choose the former every time.

Except for the fact that you could count on one hand the number of elected Republican politicians who are truly Trumpists.  Frankly, that list might begin and end with Josh Hawley.  And, even he is probably more pandering than anything.

Unless you have 147 fingers on your hand, your math is way way off.

And that was just the members of Congress still willing to challenge the free and fair election results based on less credible evidence than the Nigerian prince email scam, EVEN AFTER ARMED RIOTERS STORMED THE CAPITOL BECAUSE OF THE "FRAUDULENT" VOTE! It doesn't include the various Governors, Statewide party officials, state senators and representatives across the country, etc etc who joined in loud and clear with this non-stop Litany of Lies, conspiracy theories, and inciting political violence.

Or again, you're simply trying to minimize how completely and thoroughly you were party remains infected with Trump ism even As Trump is getting ready to leave.

If you vote for Hawley or Cruise in 2024, again, you're a conservative first, and an American second. If you are even remotely inclined to consider that, you have some soul-searching to do.

Again, supposedly normal Republicans like you willing to accept and endorse Trump and his Unapologetic extreme authoritarianism for the last five years to get your conservative ideology / principles whatever enacted are absolutely just as much the problem here as the die-hard trumpists. Trump would have never come to power or been able to drag this country down to shame the way he has the past five years if it wasn't for voters like you. And if you sold your soul to this devil, you'll sell your soul to any future ones as well.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/seattlepi/status/1347660852850270210

What are chances that they actually resign or that the Senate expel them by 2/3?

Must be pretty close to nonexistent.

I'll predict now that the outcome will be a vote of censure against Hawley at least.  Less sure about Cruz.

That definitely seems plausible.

Yeah, a censure seems both the most appropriate and likely move in this case.

Most likely, yes. Most appropriate however would be sedition charges.

Sedition charges imo would make sense for Hawley for moving the Pennsylvania objection even after the attack, but for Cruz they would be much harder to sustain legally or morally. My own stance is that Cruz should be censured, Hawley expelled, and every member of the House who put forward the Pennsylvania objection censured.

I don't know if there is a meaningful difference morally between moving the objection and voting to sustain it, but there might be a legal distinction —I'm not aware.

The only reason I don't want everybody who voted to sustain either objection censured and every House member who announced an objection after the attack expelled is for the propaganda benefit of showing restraint.

Yeah? How's that strategy been working out for us the Last 5 Years?

[Badger]

I do hope that his tweets are preserved somewhere because I think that there is definitely an intellectual/scholarly use to his tweets over the years.  I am a little uncomfortable with a slippery slope with social media bannings, but I also can't say that it was unjustified.

Yeah, I agree more or less. I hope his tweets are archived somewhere.

I have less than zero doubt Twitter has complete access to every single tweet of his

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1347674222194253825

4:1 against is a better ratio than I was expecting tbh.

Another poll conducted either that same day or the following day if I recalled showed 45% of Republicans feeling that the capital takeover was somewhat or greatly Justified, compared to only 43% who thought it was at least somewhat unjustified.

[Badger]

Reminder that many people on this very forum cited that poll earlier about how 45% or so of Republicans seemingly supported the attacks, and in the process acted prematurely before things settled.

And you are certain that this one is correct and the other one incorrect, or the actual level of support of somewhere in between, because....?

Incidentally, as one of those individuals you refer to, I don't see how this changes the analysis of how to act in this matter what I owe, nor does it change my analysis whatsoever oh, other than it creating the tiniest glimmer of hope that maybe there is hope for at least tepid changes away from trumpism in the Republican Party

[Badger]

Do we think Trump will issue a blanket pardon to all these people?

..I feel like he may lash out once the Ds start up with impeachment proceedings.

With the possible exception of the individuals responsible for killing the one Capital officer, yes, I think that is a very real risk. And that's all the more important to impeach this son of a b**** now.

[Badger]

I'm not against a Trump resignation. He's a coward anyway. These calls for him to resign have helped further drain Trump's political capital. No matter what he does, he's going to end up disgraced too.
It's hard not to feel pity, but it's equally easy not to feel sympathy.

Are you f****** high? In what Universe does Trump deserve an ounce a pity for doing this not only to himself but the entire country?

It's ever so reassuring that you don't "oppose" Trump's resignation. The only Teensy problem with that is it's very clear that is not, repeat not going to happen. That's why additional steps need to be taken, which goes far far beyond merely being out for blood as you so pithily mischaracterized it.

[Badger]

Do you guys really think that Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski would jump ship, become an Independent and side with the Dems?

I'm not convinced, but it appears to be a real possibilty. The longer she goes without denying, the more likely it is.

Please stop Trying to minimize the facts here to suit your own narrative. Over a third of Republicans approve of a violent Insurrection storming the US Capitol. That's beyond insane.

Moreover, nearly half of them believe the rioters " went too far, but had a point". That type of even grudging acknowledgement of anything close to legitimacy for these actions is beyond scary, and a direct result of the Nigerian prince email scan level BS myth of the election being stolen becoming damn near gospel mode rank-and-file Republicans.

Added to the 22% who think the protesters actions were right, we are talking about f****** two-thirds of RepublicansI

I know you want us to all hold hands and sing Kumbaya to get past this , Tim, but that's not about to happen when a large majority of one of the two major parties give even grudging acceptance to the most heinous act of outright Rebellion this country has seen in over a hundred fifty years.

Fundamental change is needed, and that will never, repeat never ever happen unless there is a clear, unreservedly assertion by our Collective democratic government that this was wrong wrong wrong and the perpetrators, particularly Crump, need to be held 100% accountable.

[Badger]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

They. Are. Already. Has. Radicalized. As. Can. Be! A mob stormed the capital and Overland Police causing deaths at the United States President urgent, and you're worried about radicalizing people!?!

Sit on your hands. You clearly are doing everything humanly possible to minimize the reality of the situation. What you are trying to write off as being calm and level-headed is simple myopia.

I'm done trying to rationally explain the gravity of this situation to you. Your whole oh, gee whiz, sure it's serious, but not so much that we should actually do much about it, type of intransigence is truly bewildering given hard facts of the situation. You truly live in a fantasy world right now.

EDIT: Sorry, a bit Hasty there. Deep breaths Badger. This is been a long and awful few days for the entire country short of trumpist bastards. I know you mean well Tim, but we have to respond to this seriously and aggressively. Sanction Trump as much as the law and constitutional system will allow. Failure to do so will simply be a matter of historical posterity. Instead it is that, that fair to act my friend, which will truly inflamed and radicalize Trump supporters. They responded to weakness with the Capitol Police they were spawned weakness when they outnumber some Progressive couple coming back for a protest on a dark Street, and they will respond to weakness if they feel their hero got away with it. That is what One Flame and energize them. Not in action.

[Badger]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

That video got my blood boiling. I said before I would have loved to have been there. These clowns would probably never attack a military base for a reason. So why not send us to them

We tried, the department of defense didn't allow the national guard to deploy after requests from the mayor and from Maryland who were stuck waiting at the border.

Forgive the cliche, but thank you for your service. Genuinely.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1347674222194253825

Digging deeper into this poll, 23% of respondents (47% of Republicans) believe the events Wednesday were "mostly a legitimate protest," compared to 72% (47% of Republicans) who believe it was "mostly people acting unlawfully."

56% believe Capitol Hill police were "not aggressive enough" in dealing with the terrorists.

Link?

[Badger]

Pelosi asked the military to effectively carry out a coup

www.nytimes.com%2F2021%2F01%2F08%2Fus%2Fpolitics%2Ftrump-pelosi-nuclear-military.html
https://twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1347889764427464712?s=20

Good to know you're on the case in opposing illegitimate Violent transfers of power! Great to know that we have sharp-eyed rational people like you willing to call a spade a spade and pose such action diligently where the threat real lies! Great job not turning this into a knee-jerk contrarian attempt at both sidesism!! 👍

[Badger]

FWIW, I apologize for all the things I said in this thread to minimize or excuse for what happened. I didn't really know all the details until I read just how dangerous this was, which was far more severe than what CNN had appeared to be reporting on the day I was watching this live.

Pelosi's office broken into? IEDs planted at the Democratic and Republican headquarters? Six deaths and one officer? But the Capitol Police officers who took selfies and had to have known about this from Parler? And yes, a bunch of really stupid looking neopagan LARPers in the Capitol that was kind of funny, but should never have been let in there to begin with.

Not even the worst criminals who either took advantage of the BLM discourse to loot and cause general mayhem or act in the name of BLM itself compares to this.

If Benghazi was deserving of its own committee for the better part of the last decade, then so most certainly is this. Investigate the people who coordinated and acted on these Parler forums and investigate the police officers for pre-knowledge of the situation. Do not apply the same standards of dealing with these traitors under the same standards of dealing with black activists under investigation.

There is no way to play devil's advocate or equate this with BLM. They never tried to subvert the results of a fair and free election through attacking the United States Capitol. Which itself sounds like a funny plot twist for a certain Nicholas Cage movie.

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/status/1347915446897446916
LMAO

This can't be real, can it?

You're good, man. First off, it takes a fair bit of guts, not to mention self-introspection, to admit one was wrong.

Secondly, the key here is better late than never oh, and no one here should I can hikind and I sure don't - - begrudge you a few days to sort this out.

Now the key is, will more than a handful of former Trump supporters actually realize this problem isn't necessarily about Donald J Trump, but the trumpism that goes bone deep into 70 + percent of the Republican Party?

[Badger]

Seth Abramson doing a deep dive on the President’s call to insurrection.

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1347908845281095680

Everyone should read this.

[Badger]

FBI arrests Des Moines man photographed at U.S. Capitol riot. He faces five federal charges

dn dn dn another one bites the dust

and another one gone, another one gone...

another one bites the dust

I'm still extremely disappointed and upset that literally hundreds and hundreds of these traitorous rioters will get away simply because there was too little will to properly prepare for, and then arrest okay yes them at the time, and not all of these people be such idiots as to advertise their illegal activities online.

[Badger]

Apparently Pence has not fully ruled out invocation of the 25th. https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1348083409743208448?s=20

Ten-to-one it is simply a story leaked to undermine impeachment attempts.

[Badger]

Liberals would do well to reflect on this quote by Martin Luther King, there is a lot of truth to it with regard to how many Americans feel.

A riot is the language of the unheard - Martin Luther King

Yes, if only these poor marginalized individuals had someone in great position of influence and power to support their aims and goals. Like say maybe the majority of one of the two major political parties and the president of the United States himself. Then they wouldn't have to resort to such matters.

Great point! So glad that there's no one on that list trying to what about an attempted coup on powers of government!

[Badger]

Liberals would do well to reflect on this quote by Martin Luther King, there is a lot of truth to it with regard to how many Americans feel.

A riot is the language of the unheard - Martin Luther King

If there is one thing on God's green Earth that a trump supporter is not, it's unheard. You can't open a paper without reading yet another profile of one of their diners in the middle of nowhere. They are not an oppressed minority like African Americans in the civil rights era, they are a coddled, romanticized minority that uses violence and corruption to achieve their political goals and to stay in power despite almost always receiving less votes than the majority party.

Don't twist Dr. King's words to defend racists, neo-nazis and murderers. It's disgusting.

[Badger]

Liberals would do well to reflect on this quote by Martin Luther King, there is a lot of truth to it with regard to how many Americans feel.

A riot is the language of the unheard - Martin Luther King

If there is one thing on God's green Earth that a trump supporter is not, it's unheard. You can't open a paper without reading yet another profile of one of their diners in the middle of nowhere. They are not an oppressed minority like African Americans in the civil rights era, they are a coddled, romanticized minority that uses violence and corruption to achieve their political goals and to stay in power despite almost always receiving less votes than the majority party.

Don't twist Dr. King's words to defend racists, neo-nazis and murderers. It's disgusting.

All the major institutions, corporations, academia, media, the entertainment industry are opposed to Trump supporters who are ridiculed and often lose their jobs for the views, they are an oppressed group, they are oppressed by all of the major institutions and their voices are not listened to by any major institution in America except for now the WH.

Spoken like a good little brownshirt.

[Badger]

Liberals would do well to reflect on this quote by Martin Luther King, there is a lot of truth to it with regard to how many Americans feel.

A riot is the language of the unheard - Martin Luther King

If there is one thing on God's green Earth that a trump supporter is not, it's unheard. You can't open a paper without reading yet another profile of one of their diners in the middle of nowhere. They are not an oppressed minority like African Americans in the civil rights era, they are a coddled, romanticized minority that uses violence and corruption to achieve their political goals and to stay in power despite almost always receiving less votes than the majority party.

Don't twist Dr. King's words to defend racists, neo-nazis and murderers. It's disgusting.

All the major institutions, corporations, academia, media, the entertainment industry are opposed to Trump supporters who are ridiculed and often lose their jobs for the views, they are an oppressed group, they are oppressed by all of the major institutions and their voices are not listened to by any major institution in America except for now the WH.

Really? Trump supporters are oppressed by "all the major institutions," even though Trump was elevated to the presidency over the wishes of a plurality of the electorate because of the electoral college and his enablers were able to control the Senate for 4 years because of its extremely disproportionate system of representation? Trump supporters are oppressed by "all the major institutions" when the media would show his empty podiums instead of Hillary's campaign speeches and praise him for his "presidential tone" every time managed to avoid devolving into complete insanity?

That's not even to mention that, as we speak, congressional Republicans are trying to stop impeachment for no other reason than to coddle the delicate feelings of indignant, reality-denying Trump supporters.

Or to make sure QAnon lunatics don’t threaten their families.

So, in other words, they surrender and let the MAGA terrorists win? Things like "bodyguards", "security detail", and "police protection" just don't exist anymore?

It's either that, or they are MAGA terrorist sympathizers and trying to cover up for them.

You are both correct. I'm not 100% sure of the details, but IRC the typical Congressman does not have a dedicated security Force outside of their offices. It's not like they have more than a likely taxpayer-funded security system on their private home the same as many of us non members of Congress do, which is small comfort for the threat of qanon crazies kidnapping their kids at the bus stop or tossing a firebomb through their bedroom window.

I believe we are going to have to vastly expand oh, and I mean enormously, the security detail provided to members of Congress and their staff. Republicans have allowed this to generate where their party--not just Trump by a mile - - have actively incited the growth of a violent paramilitary auxiliary. The problem isn't going away with Trump in 10 days.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1348284578037960706

Thank God. And I don't believe that is a hyperbolic statement whatsoever. Mass prosecution's of these people who almost universally escaped arrest on that day is a crucial part of History establishing the wrongness of this traitorous violent insurrection.

Now if they'll just go after the ringleader....

[Badger]

Sen Roy Blunt: Trump "learned his lesson", shouldn't resign

Remember when Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME) explained away her decision to acquit President Donald Trump of impeachment last year because, in her opinion, “the president has learned from this case?”

Well, Sen. Roy Blunt (R-MO) gave us the sequel to that hopelessly naive notion on Sunday morning.

....

“I think the country is the right way to hold presidents accountable,” he said. “The president should be very careful over the next 10 days that his behavior is what you would expect from the leader of the greatest country in the world.”

“My personal view is that the president touched the hot stove on Wednesday and is unlikely to touch it again,” the senator continued. “And if that’s the case, we get—every day we get closer to the last day of his presidency. We should be thinking more about the first day of the next presidency than the last day of his presidency.”

I really, really wish that fool would have lost to Kander.

This is by no means Just Roy blunt. This is the talking point du jour from the entire Republican Party. Pretty much every single Republican member of Congress coming out against impeachment has used a near-identical line about we must not impeach because that will undermine healing unde the new president and coming together and only be divisive, blah blah blah blah blah. It's obviously an organized media campaign from McConnell's & McCarthy's office.

The real stories of course they want to run out the clock on the last 10 days without having to take a stand. They wish neither to explain to their general election voters-- as well as their grandchildren - - why they voted to give Trump yet another pass for the most reprehensible act of outright treason ever committed by a sitting president (with James Buchanan admittedly in the running), or alternatively have to deal with primary challenges after they vote against the man whom is shamefully still the most popular in their party.