NY: Trump on Trial!

[ProudModerate2]

Is anyone listening to the Orange Buffoonery coming out of this Clown right now?
It's about Hunter Biden, and other BS.
"Millions of votes were stuffed in ballot boxes" according to this Idiot.
Just wow.

My local NBC station had it on for probably not even five minutes and then went back to regular programming, which seems fair

Yep. Same here.
But then I changed it to the local Fox channel and they continued for a little longer, until they also realized it was laughable, nauseating nonsense, and then they just went to commentary about what he was saying.
Funny stuff, when even Fox realizes they are not helping him/Republicans by airing his garbage.
Uggggg.

[LBJer]

Very few people go to jail for lying on taxes or busieness documents. Especially the rich. And for things much worst.

Continuing with the Al Capone analogy, if I'm not mistaken, his sentence for tax evasion was much more severe than was normal for that crime. 

[emailking]

If convicted, Trump faces up to 136 years so there is certainly room to give a big sentence if the judge wants to.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1643415687396831236

You cannot support this clown and be a good person.

Judge Merchan was stupid for not instituting a gag order (even though Trump most likely would have ignored it).

He still can, and absolutely should.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

OK, seriousposting time.

Since the 2016 campaign, all kinds of people have raised expectations regarding Trump's imminent demise as a political force, a President, a free man, etc. Whether they be the lamestream media, Democratic (and a few Republican) politicians, prosecutors, intelligence officials, and all manner of other “pundits” both professional and armchair offering their ongoing Twitter and Cable TV commentary on Trump’s controversies, there've been a lot of people with large audiences and influential platforms promising that career criminal, fascist-curious, unprecedented internal menace to American democracy Donald John Trump, Sr. is "about to face real consequences." Whether it came from the SDNY, FBI, impeachment, the military, or the vaunted "adults in the room" during the Trump Presidency, there were a lot of people making promises that someone, somewhere, would Stop Him.

All of the above has backfired. It has benefited Trump politically (and by extension, financially), played into his and his supporters' persecution complex about the Lyin' Media/Deep State being "out to get them", made his opponents look impotent, silly, and tiresome, and created staying power for Trump that he may very well not have otherwise had----at least, not as a political force post-Presidency.

Trump still should face serious criminal consequences for January 6th. For Christ's sake, he and his supporters wanted to hang his own Vice President, along with the Speaker of the House and every other Democrat and "RINO" in Congress! This is a man who should have been indicted two years ago!

I feel many of the same sentiments, with the caveat that if we had a better justice system, he would have been indicted over two decades ago and we never would have had to deal with his craptacular corruption of our country. But to paraphrase the old saying, you go after wanna-be dictators with the justice system you have, not the justice system you want. And it's not fair.

Trump, and those like him (which includes more Republicans than most of us would have guessed ten years ago) fight dirty. And we cannot fight back the same way, because their ultimate goal is to destroy the rule of law. That's the focus of much of their rhetoric not just projection, but the de-legitimization of the (flawed, but far better than what we'd have under GOP tyranny) justice system and rule of law we do have. We're fighting Marquess of Queensberry rules while they can use every dirty trick imaginable, because we want to have rules in the future, and they don't. (At least, not for themselves.)

On a relevant note, superb journalist Marcy Wheeler published something last month that is worth reading, on pretty much this exact topic:
"Just for Perspective: Investigations Take Longer When Presidents Don’t Wiretap Themselves "

The DoJ has not been wasting it's time, it's been doing it's job and building the most airtight case it possibly can over January 6th. And while that does take time, it's been time well spent, and not unusual given everything they need to do if they're to have any hope of bringing the head of the criminal Trump Organization to justice.
 

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

[BG-NY]

https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/1641618068550955011

[Inmate Trump]

A good question is, will these charges cripple the other investigations? Of course they won’t go away, but will they still have teeth in the eyes of the public if these charges fall apart?

[LBJer]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

The idea that the case is "very weak" seems to be based on the fact that Bragg wasn't very specific about what election laws were violated.  But some analysts have said that Bragg was actually being smart in not going into specifics.  If so, the conventional analysis is way off the mark.  

[Mr. Matt]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1643415687396831236

You cannot support this clown and be a good person.

Judge Merchan was stupid for not instituting a gag order (even though Trump most likely would have ignored it).

He still can, and absolutely should.

Judge: "You have the right to remain silent."

DT: "I choose to waive that right."

[LBJer]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1643415687396831236

You cannot support this clown and be a good person.

Judge Merchan was stupid for not instituting a gag order (even though Trump most likely would have ignored it).

He still can, and absolutely should.

Judge: "You have the right to remain silent."

DT: "I choose to waive that right."

Trump couldn't remain silent if doing so was necessary to avoid being hung, drawn, and quartered.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1643415687396831236

You cannot support this clown and be a good person.

Judge Merchan was stupid for not instituting a gag order (even though Trump most likely would have ignored it).

He still can, and absolutely should.

Judge: "You have the right to remain silent."

DT: "I choose to waive that right."

Trump couldn't remain silent if doing so was necessary to avoid being hung, drawn, and quartered.

All the more reason the judge should impose a gag order. First off, I expect Trump will attempt to try this case the media more than literally any other case in our country's history, and the more he gets away with that the more he makes a mockery of the entire system and proceedings. Cases and above all defendants like this are the reason that completely constitutional gag orders were invented.

On a second purely personal and slightly greedy note, I'd love to see the order because it has noted Trump couldn't follow it if his life depended on it. Honestly think his chances of doing any jail time in this case would be at least as likely from a finding of contempt after he inevitably violates the gag order with repeated contempt hearings until the judge loses his patience and actually remains him to custody.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1643415687396831236

You cannot support this clown and be a good person.

Judge Merchan was stupid for not instituting a gag order (even though Trump most likely would have ignored it).

He still can, and absolutely should.

Judge: "You have the right to remain silent."

DT: "I choose to waive that right."

Trump couldn't remain silent if doing so was necessary to avoid being hung, drawn, and quartered.

All the more reason the judge should impose a gag order. First off, I expect Trump will attempt to try this case the media more than literally any other case in our country's history, and the more he gets away with that the more he makes a mockery of the entire system and proceedings. Cases and above all defendants like this are the reason that completely constitutional gag orders were invented.

On a second purely personal and slightly greedy note, I'd love to see the order because as noted Trump couldn't follow it if his life depended on it. I honestly think his chances of doing any jail time in this case would be at least as likely from a finding of contempt after he inevitably violates the gag order multiple times with repeated contempt hearings until the judge loses his patience and actually remands him to custody.

[SteveRogers]

The third world is laughing at us:

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1643343155574767617

In the countries that you’re talking about, do the prosecutors usually sit back and politely let said candidate finish serving out their entire term as President before filing the charges?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The third world is laughing at us:

<tweet deleted to save space>

In the countries that you’re talking about, do the prosecutors usually sit back and politely let said candidate finish serving out their entire term as President before filing the charges?

How many functioning democracies have a major party promoting the guy who launched an attack on the legislature to keep himself in office as their leading candidate in the next election?

[Badger]

The third world is laughing at us:

<tweet deleted to save space>

In the countries that you’re talking about, do the prosecutors usually sit back and politely let said candidate finish serving out their entire term as President before filing the charges?

How many functioning democracies have a major party promoting the guy who launched an attack on the legislature to keep himself in office as their leading candidate in the next election?

Us and Brazil.

[Pericles]

Reading the indictment, it looks like Trump paid off two women before the 2016 election. We know Stormy got the $130,000 payment, so someone else had a 'sexual relationship' with Trump (rather than the 'sexual encounter' Stormy had) and got paid $150,000. Did anyone know about this, or is this a new scandal?

It looks like they got him on tape again too.

It's probably just referring to Karen McDougal.

Oh I forgot about her, that's what it would be. Was this expected?

[Ferguson97]

The third world is laughing at us:

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1643343155574767617

Yeah man because when I think of countries that are in a position to lecture us on democracy and corruption, I think of El Salvador.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The third world is laughing at us:

The third world does not care. They are wondering where they are going to find the money to pay for groceries and rent next week. They wish they could live in a country where they have freedoms.

When you are running around an athletic racetrack, how much time does the lead runner spend looking back at those in 7th and 8th wondering how they feel about them?

It is just a nonsensical observation.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

The idea that the case is "very weak" seems to be based on the fact that Bragg wasn't very specific about what election laws were violated.  But some analysts have said that Bragg was actually being smart in not going into specifics.  If so, the conventional analysis is way off the mark.  

How is this smart? He’ll have to go into specifics at some point.  What specfics could he possibly have? The only laws available to him are very vague. And under the principle of lenity, vagueness in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant.  Given this, he’s essentially going to be relying in jury nullification.

[Pres Mike]

The third world is laughing at us:

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1643343155574767617

Did the President of El Salvador say this when Israel, South Korea, Japan and France convicted their former head of states and gave jail time? No, all are functioning democracies.

[LBJer]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

The idea that the case is "very weak" seems to be based on the fact that Bragg wasn't very specific about what election laws were violated.  But some analysts have said that Bragg was actually being smart in not going into specifics.  If so, the conventional analysis is way off the mark.  

How is this smart? He’ll have to go into specifics at some point.  What specfics could he possibly have?

"At some point," yes, but why tip his hand and let Trump's lawyers know what they're facing sooner than he has to?  And unless you know NY campaign finance law well, you're not really in a position to know what specifics he could have. 

[LBJer]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

The idea that the case is "very weak" seems to be based on the fact that Bragg wasn't very specific about what election laws were violated.  But some analysts have said that Bragg was actually being smart in not going into specifics.  If so, the conventional analysis is way off the mark.  

The only laws available to him are very vague.

I think he was being vague not on the laws, but on the crimes Trump committed or sought to commit that supposedly turned the 34 counts into felonies instead of misdemeanors.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

The idea that the case is "very weak" seems to be based on the fact that Bragg wasn't very specific about what election laws were violated.  But some analysts have said that Bragg was actually being smart in not going into specifics.  If so, the conventional analysis is way off the mark.  

The only laws available to him are very vague.

I think he was being vague not on the laws, but on the crimes Trump committed or sought to commit that supposedly turned the 34 counts into felonies instead of misdemeanors.

I actually don’t think Bragg was vague.  Bragg was pretty specific about the statutes he believes Trump broke, and how he believes Trump violated them.

I’m saying that these statutes themselves are vague, and it is unclear whether the conduct Trump is alleged to have committed constitutes a violation of those laws. And I don’t believe there are any additional specific facts that could be added that would resolve the vagueness, at least not in a way that would merit conviction.

[LBJer]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

The idea that the case is "very weak" seems to be based on the fact that Bragg wasn't very specific about what election laws were violated.  But some analysts have said that Bragg was actually being smart in not going into specifics.  If so, the conventional analysis is way off the mark.  

The only laws available to him are very vague.

I think he was being vague not on the laws, but on the crimes Trump committed or sought to commit that supposedly turned the 34 counts into felonies instead of misdemeanors.

I actually don’t think Bragg was vague.  Bragg was pretty specific about the statutes he believes Trump broke, and how he believes Trump violated them.

I’m saying that these statutes themselves are vague, and it is unclear whether the conduct Trump is alleged to have committed constitutes a violation of those laws. And I don’t believe there are any additional specific facts that could be added that would resolve the vagueness, at least not in a way that would merit conviction.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I find such a conclusion premature at best.  

This is worth a look:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2023/04/04/bragg-past-case-trump-indictment-miller-analysis-ebof-vpx.cnn