Canada General Discussion (2019-)

[Upper Canada Tory]

Yeah, you're right about this, and I will also point out that hate crimes have also increased in the last few years under the LPC government, against many groups but particularly Jewish Canadians, who are the top target of hate crimes in the country

Speaking of Jewish Canadians, today's revelations of a war in Gaza is already spilling over into Canadian public life. I would hate to turn this thread into yet another Israel-Palestine s--t flinging contest, I only bring this up to point out that conflict in that part of the world often correlates with a rise in antisemitic violence. We've already started increasing police presence at synagogues and mosques, which is a good thing. But with this government's weak record on taking strong preventative measures on crime and violence, I'm not too confident in them.

We already have two threads like that - no need for a third one.  

In general, I will point out that Canada is overall an extremely safe country - both for Jews and non-Jews. I'm a Jew who goes to synagogue weekly, have never had any issues, even when there's a conflict in Israel.

But yeah, antisemitic violence domestically when conflicts arise in the Middle East is always a concern. It was particularly bad after the May 2021 conflict, because for some reason that war particularly enflamed tensions, which is why I think the subsequent record high rise in hate crimes in 2021 and 2022 is still in recent memory and could happen again, especially if there's a serious conflict such as the ongoing.

Hopefully there will be a police presence at synagogues and mosques and the federal and provincial governments will take this issue seriously. But who knows? I wouldn't be surprised if a screw up happens from the government that had a caucus member/Speaker who accidentally invited a Nazi to parliament.

[CumbrianLefty]

I note that a recent poll had Bieber miles behind the Tory leader in the "best PM" ratings - and maybe even worse, was nearly caught by the useless Singh

Is it now a real possibility he doesn't even stay around until the next GE?

[RFK 2024]

I can't see this holding together until 2025.

[Meclazine for Israel]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

[Benjamin Frank]

Rupert Murdoch's Sky'News' is a rag that spreads lies, like all of Murdoch's rags.

Poilievre here successfully employs the Socratic method. I don't think it shows that he's smart, yet alone 'really smart' but that he surprised the reporter who was not expecting such a response.

Of course, there is a difference between the leader of the opposition and the Prime Minister, but if Justin Trudeau here in Canada or Anthony Albanese in Australia responded to a reporter's questions using the Socratic Method, I highly doubt Sky 'News' would be cheering, but would be condemning them for refusing to answer questions.

For context, the closest in Canada to a politician who routinized a non response method like this was senior Liberal cabinet minister Herb Gray whose catchphrase was  "I reject the premise of your question."

Looking back, opposition politicians and journalists appreciated Herb Gray, but at the time, there was often considerable annoyance.

[Meclazine for Israel]

ScoMo used the Socratic method to great effect.

It's not unusual for legally trained professionals not to utilise it.

[lfromnj]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/jama-ndp-caucus-1.7005056
Some Ontario parliament NDP member was kicked out for some controversial Gaza comments.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

[RFK 2024]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

Yet he’s still winning by Mulroney/Reagan esque margins in the polls.  Curious?

[Vosem]

Yeah, the Poilievre video was received so well in my (online) circles that people were questioning if the whole thing was staged.

https://twitter.com/eigenrobot/status/1714381556020588577

Of course not everyone is, uh, even on the anti-journalism-culture right at all.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

Yet he’s still winning by Mulroney/Reagan esque margins in the polls.  Curious?

I mean, even by the worst polls 60% of Canadians are voting for parties on the "left or center-left" (the liberals clearly have centrist elements)... But yes, FPTP is a terrible system and Trudeau is also pretty 'insufferable' himself, albeit at least he isn't trying to emulate the worst parts of the populist conservatism in my country.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Contempt for journalists as individuals rather than journalism being bad as a consequence of the demands of the media owning class is pretty explicitly a matter of contempt for the notion of a free press with the ability to expose the truth. "I should be able to lie whenever I want and not be challenged on my lies"

It's also a good summation of Musk's current ethos. He bought Twitter with the goal of turning it into a platform which explicitly boosts right-wing views in response to his daughter being a transgender leftist and disowning him, and is now currently waging a rhetorical war against Wikipedia because he doesn't think his Wikipedia page is positive enough.
https://twitter.com/halomancer1/status/1716571164255141891?s=20

[OSR stands with Israel]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

Yet he’s still winning by Mulroney/Reagan esque margins in the polls.  Curious?

I mean, even by the worst polls 60% of Canadians are voting for parties on the "left" (the liberals clearly have centrist elements)... But yes, FPTP is a terrible system.

I mean that cause many centrist voters vote for the Liberals but would vote Tory over NDP(It's why when NDP becomes the number 2 party, many lib voters vote Tory). Also multiple Canadian provinces  have rejected changing the FPTP system when they had a choice to in a referendum

[OSR stands with Israel]

Yeah, the Poilievre video was received so well in my (online) circles that people were questioning if the whole thing was staged.

https://twitter.com/eigenrobot/status/1714381556020588577

Of course not everyone is, uh, even on the anti-journalism-culture right at all.

Polievre has done this before too

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

Yet he’s still winning by Mulroney/Reagan esque margins in the polls.  Curious?

I mean, even by the worst polls 60% of Canadians are voting for parties on the "left" (the liberals clearly have centrist elements)... But yes, FPTP is a terrible system.

I mean that cause many centrist voters vote for the Liberals but would vote Tory over NDP(It's why when NDP becomes the number 2 party, many lib voters vote Tory). Also multiple Canadian provinces  have rejected changing the FPTP system when they had a choice to in a referendum

That would be more relevant under someone like O'Toole, Michael Chong, etc... Poilievre has certainly managed to persuade a good amount of Liberal-voting Canadians it seems in present polls, but unless he does begin polling above the 40% mark which, from what I can tell, is his high point... Then I do feel like he's consolidated pretty much the whole of the 'Canadian Right' and a good amount of a populist trend he himself has no part in having created but he's riding it.

Admittedly, he's done this pretty successfully. But unless you think he's gonna gain votes from the Greens, NDP or BQ I do think he's reached his high mark.

As for FPTP for MMP and other systems like that, I respect the right of the people to choose their own systems, I just objectively believe that situations like this prove why MMP is the preferable choice.

[RFK 2024]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

Yet he’s still winning by Mulroney/Reagan esque margins in the polls.  Curious?

I mean, even by the worst polls 60% of Canadians are voting for parties on the "left or center-left" (the liberals clearly have centrist elements)... But yes, FPTP is a terrible system and Trudeau is also pretty 'insufferable' himself, albeit at least he isn't trying to emulate the worst parts of the populist conservatism in my country.

This is the result of having a multi party system.  No one has got a true majority (50% of the vote) since 1984. 

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

Yet he’s still winning by Mulroney/Reagan esque margins in the polls.  Curious?

I mean, even by the worst polls 60% of Canadians are voting for parties on the "left or center-left" (the liberals clearly have centrist elements)... But yes, FPTP is a terrible system and Trudeau is also pretty 'insufferable' himself, albeit at least he isn't trying to emulate the worst parts of the populist conservatism in my country.

This is the result of having a multi party system.  No one has got a true majority (50% of the vote) since 1984. 

Oh I'm fully aware, I could probably name every Canadian PM and election winner, and most runner-ups, right-through 1867. I promise I'm not some ignorant American just giving my opinion, I do genuinely keep up on these things. But from what I can tell it seems like Poilevere has successfully convinced most soft 'liberal' voters in the polls. The question now becomes will he keep them? But other than that, where else would he break out from the mid to high 30's? Quebec City with former ADQ voters might be one spot, if he doesn't already have them.

[Benjamin Frank]

This video is obviously a Rorschach test to viewers. As I wrote in my initial post, I imagine Conservatives would be outraged if Prime Minister Trudeau used a similar approach to reporters, not necessarily the Socratic method like that, but challenging reporters assumptions a lot more.

That is actually something I'd like to see a lot more of, because many journalist assumptions regarding politics/policy are stupid/false:

False/fantasy assumption: politicians shouldn't divide.
Reality: politics is ultimately about who gets what, so it's inherently divisive. I agree that politicians shouldn't go out of their way to create divisions with false issues, like Donald Trump did/does (and people can insert their own names) but, those politicians are usually often popular.

In Poilievre's case, I will say that at least in the national media, that Poilievre realized that he had taken that approach as far as he could go and has moved to generally trying to sound more moderate and measured, but Canadians in general seem far less willing to accept this approach of what Canadians (especially journalists) call "American style politics."

False/fantasy assumption: Every problem can be solved with more money, and there is more money for everything.
Reality: NO

However, while I like to think that politicians should be more aggressive in challenging journalists, I recognize that is essentially my approach here, and I realize I'm far from Mr popularity.

I recognize that most politicians are 'scripted' for a reason: they have a message they want to get out which would be distracted by challenging the person interviewing them, and most times it is the scripted politician who wins elections/passes legislation.

[Benjamin Frank]

I can see why conspiratorial viewers would think this video is a set-up. I wondered it myself. The journalist asked abstract political view questions rather than on more concrete issues, and when challenged, had no knowledge.

However, Poilievre succeeds here partly by lying. The Liberal Party put out a montage on Twitter/X of the many times Poilievre has called out politicians for being 'leftist, which belies his claim here that he 'doesn't think in these old paradigms' (not the exact quote.)

He also routinely refers to himself as a 'common sense conservative.' (If you really have common sense you don't need to tell people - Ed.) This is not a new line among those on the right either which shows that Poilievre doesn't mean 'common sense Conservative' as it goes back to, at least, Mike Harris in Ontario of the still Progressive Conservative Party, who referred to himself as a 'common sense conservative.'

Mike Harris and Pierre Poilievre are clearly using that phrase to try to distinguish themselves from 'liberal intellectuals.' In Harris' case, he was running for Premier against the bookish Premier Bob Rae in 1995 (although the Ontario Liberals were the main alternative.) For those not on the right though, I think referring to yourself as having 'common sense' is every bit as smug and condescending as those the right accuses of being 'intellectual.'

[Vosem]

Contempt for journalists as individuals rather than journalism being bad as a consequence of the demands of the media owning class is pretty explicitly a matter of contempt for the notion of a free press with the ability to expose the truth. "I should be able to lie whenever I want and not be challenged on my lies"

Not sure of this -- I think it is possible to say that the current ways that people go into "mainstream" journalism select for particular sorts of groupthink and ignorance without thinking that a free press is bad. (The classic version of this critique is a Chomskyan one made from the left, though I think a rightist critique that it has been overcome by an institutionally "woke" culture is much more common today). There is also a question of power -- in a world connected by social media, an article written about a person or corporation or set of ideas in a widely-read publication might set the narrative about that person/corporation/set of ideas for many years in a way which is hard to reply to, and when the person writing it seems clearly ignorant of the topic and motivated by ideological considerations which seem arcane to many the whole thing starts to look very arbitrary and absurd.

Michael Crichton famously quoted Murray Gell-Mann as noticing that whenever the press discussed physics -- Gell-Mann's field of expertise -- they would make horrific mistakes, but that Gell-Mann trusted them on all other topics anyway. Crichton expands this to ask why you should ever trust someone who is not a subject-matter expert to explain a particular subject to you; I think contempt for journalism culture in this sense is quite old, and not necessarily particularly driven by tech-libertarianism.

[Хahar 🤔]

I note that a recent poll had Bieber miles behind the Tory leader in the "best PM" ratings - and maybe even worse, was nearly caught by the useless Singh

Is it now a real possibility he doesn't even stay around until the next GE?

I think it's always been a possibility: it is a time-honored tradition in Canada to quit right before a certain defeat and leave some other schmuck holding the bag. The problem is that for a long time the obvious successor was Freeland, but she now seems so discredited that it's hard for me to imagine that she could actually win a leadership contest. I'm unsure whom that leaves as an option.

[Jingizu]

Moving this discussion so more Canadians can see and maybe comment:

Yes, and I would be happy if Western Europe had taken NATO seriously over the last thirty years so that there wouldn’t need to be more than a tripwire force from the U.S. present but sadly that wasn’t the case.

I read yesterday this in the Ottawa Playbook from Politico.

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/ottawa-playbook/2023/10/23/from-rosedale-to-the-rock-00122950

THE SOUND OF SILENCE — The Canadian Armed Forces are struggling mightily to recruit, train and retain personnel. The pandemic worsened a pre-existing problem. It’s gotten so bad that the military doesn’t have enough people to offer most visiting dignitaries in Ottawa a gun salute.

A scaled-down list of ceremonial offerings was detailed in a tasking order circulated by Chief of the Defense Staff Gen. WAYNE EYRE in August.

“The CAF has been hampered by numerous deficiencies that have impacted the composition and readiness of the CAF, and which have been compounded by the global pandemic,” read the order, obtained by POLITICO.

He ordered ceremonial military honors to be scaled down to a “sustainable level” until 2025.

— There’s that R-word: The word of the moment in federal budgetary circles is restraint. Same goes for a resource-thin military forced to reckon with a lack of people.

The Department of National Defence has been trying to solve the problem for more than a year. A directive published by Eyre and Deputy Minister BILL MATTHEWS on Oct. 6, 2022 laid out the scope of the challenge — and the need to rebuild.

“These strains continue to imperil the force size available for operations and have resulted in a significant loss of experience and expertise within the CAF, creating a requirement to recover and rebuild (reconstitute) the organization,” read that directive.

In the aftermath of the Russia-Ukraine War, there's going to be a serious reckoning in NATO when it comes to procurement and replacement of equipment, throw on top of it recruiting of new personnel to replace everyone retiring. Organizationally the Europeans need to figure out what they're doing. If it's through NATO (American leadership) or through EU (not American leadership, so largely French), I don't care, just pick one and go
with it. I'm all for American Presidents telling our allies to live up to their treaty commitments toward ensuring American defense, just as we live up to our treaty commitments toward ensuring European and Canadian defense. In NATO there's us, France, Turkey, Poland, Sweden, and the UK. There's a lot of other countries. In late 2021, they held a huge NATO joint naval exercise and the Belgians were kicked out of it because the crew of their frigate Leopold I was deemed undertrained.

Ouch.    Has it occurred to the Canadian Liberals that protecting Canada’s vast, increasingly geopolitically important, northern reaches might be a good idea? Or are they just going to let those nefarious Americans sail through their waters unchallenged? Much less what the Russians might get up to?

The Canadians have one base in their Arctic reaches at Alert in far northern Nunavut. It's largely just signals intelligence.

You saw it when an American airplane shot down the suspected Chinese spy balloon on Canadian soil. Canada's defense is calling the U.S.

Again, ouch.  

You’d think that Canadian National Pride would have resulted in some changes by now.

They don't care. Trudeau already stated they cannot live up to NATO commitments. Which, fine, but you lose the right to have your word taken seriously on foreign affairs. It's easier for Trudeau to just rely on the Americans instead of Canada living up to their word and spending more money. But it puts them in a pickle when they negotiate with the Americans or other countries on issues of global importance when the inevitable "what are you bringing to the table?" is asked. China and India during Trudeau's reign as Prime Minister have very publicly treated Canada as completely unimportant irrelevant in global affairs, and this is a G7 member. It would never get stated publicly, but all signals are Biden does not think much of the Canadians either. His administration formally asked Trudeau during his convoy crisis if he needed American help to take care of Canada's problem on the Ambassador Bridge, which...wow.

How the world has changed the last 4 years where leaders of first world countries officially gave up on more interconnected economic activity getting rid of the world divide and would democratize other countries, there's going to be winners and losers. Unless countries such as Canada and Germany as the most obvious European example have a serious reckoning on their place in geopolitical affairs, they're going to be losers.

I forgot Turkey in my earlier post. They're a real military inside NATO.

I am not at all surprised at Belgium’s failure that you mentioned: they’re kinda known for that.

I…agree with you on this. What do the other Canadian political parties say on this subject?

You’d think Fidel Castro’s illegitimate Canadian son would know the value of a strong military 

Curious about certain posters’ reactions in particular.

[oldtimer]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

Yet he’s still winning by Mulroney/Reagan esque margins in the polls.  Curious?

I mean, even by the worst polls 60% of Canadians are voting for parties on the "left or center-left" (the liberals clearly have centrist elements)... But yes, FPTP is a terrible system and Trudeau is also pretty 'insufferable' himself, albeit at least he isn't trying to emulate the worst parts of the populist conservatism in my country.

Not really.

The polling average has it at 50-50 (CON 40+PP 5+ BQ 5 = 50) (LIB 26+ NDP 18+ GRN 5 =49).

[Open Source Intelligence]

I note that a recent poll had Bieber miles behind the Tory leader in the "best PM" ratings - and maybe even worse, was nearly caught by the useless Singh

Is it now a real possibility he doesn't even stay around until the next GE?

I think it's always been a possibility: it is a time-honored tradition in Canada to quit right before a certain defeat and leave some other schmuck holding the bag. The problem is that for a long time the obvious successor was Freeland, but she now seems so discredited that it's hard for me to imagine that she could actually win a leadership contest. I'm unsure whom that leaves as an option.

Well being the Liberals, from history we know their only options are an Ontarian or a Quebecer that is fluent in English and French. Last leader the Liberal Party had from a riding not in either province was Mac King representing Prince Albert. The party with a couple exceptions does not exist west of Thunder Bay and I don't see them picking anyone from the Atlantic provinces. Francois-Philippe Champagne seems a competent politician actually worth ten cents, but he also seems the type that would get destroyed by Pierre Poilievre in a general election campaign, and then all the guys that really want to run the party would bury him afterward so he could take the blame and not Trudeau. But maybe it's what you do to become Prime Minister for 5 months.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

I can't tell if the reporter is really stupid or the Politician is really smart.

Pierre Poilievre

Interview with False Questions

https://youtu.be/CmbAPfKJMRU?feature=shared

I saw this video a couple of days ago and shared it with some friends to point out how much of a narcissistic smuck Poilievere looks like here. Painfully insufferable. And everyone pretty much agreed he looked horrible here.

Of course you thought it was a good look.

Yet he’s still winning by Mulroney/Reagan esque margins in the polls.  Curious?

I mean, even by the worst polls 60% of Canadians are voting for parties on the "left or center-left" (the liberals clearly have centrist elements)... But yes, FPTP is a terrible system and Trudeau is also pretty 'insufferable' himself, albeit at least he isn't trying to emulate the worst parts of the populist conservatism in my country.

Not really.

The polling average has it at 50-50 (CON 40+PP 5+ BQ 5 = 50) (LIB 26+ NDP 18+ GRN 5 =49).

You're including BQ in the 'Conservative' category? And CON at 40 + PP at 5 are both the tippy-top of their polling numbers, yes. I highly doubt PP get's 5% of the vote, I'd wager money on it actually.