Canada General Discussion (2019-)

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

I genuinely do not believe Trudeau or any other member of Cabinet was at fault for this, unless there's any evidence to the contrary it feels like an extremely cut-and-dry situation of Rota and/or Rota's staff being extremely incompetent, inviting a constituent without doing any due diligence.

You don't think Freeland emerges worse out of this?

She takes a personal hit because talk about Ukrainian Nazis draws attention to her grandfather who was a Ukrainian Nazi, sure. But most reasonable people can understand that being the granddaughter of a Nazi, doesn't make one a Nazi. Either way, I was just saying I personally don't think anyone in cabinet was responsible for Hunka's invitation, Freeland or otherwise.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I genuinely do not believe Trudeau or any other member of Cabinet was at fault for this, unless there's any evidence to the contrary it feels like an extremely cut-and-dry situation of Rota and/or Rota's staff being extremely incompetent, inviting a constituent without doing any due diligence.

You don't think Freeland emerges worse out of this?

She takes a personal hit because talk about Ukrainian Nazis draws attention to her grandfather who was a Ukrainian Nazi, sure. But most reasonable people can understand that being the granddaughter of a Nazi, doesn't make one a Nazi. Either way, I was just saying I personally don't think anyone in cabinet was responsible for Hunka's invitation, Freeland or otherwise.

She literally did her thesis on Ukraine and WW2 so her giving him a standing ovation makes it all the more suspicious

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1707346630305865746?t=6tLyc-KO2hItyDC8Ag...
So this poll came out. I find it fairly informative,  cause it's going to be perhaps the only federal poll of the province for a long time, perhaps until the GE if even. So there is data here with a respectable MOE rather than the usual absurdly small sample size of the N&L subsample in Altantic Canada polls.

I would put the numbers here as only a bit worse that 2011 for the liberals, just with the Conservatives pulling the voters rather than the NDP.  However,  the Tories having a more efficient vote distribution means the liberals probably only hold St. John's South and Avalon,  compared to the 4 seats held in 2011.

I do not know much about Canadian politics, but why are Liberal voters flocking to the Tories, rather than the NDP?

So that was a poll of only Newfoundland and Labrador, interestingly. In most of Canada, it's not at all unheard of for Liberals to switch to Conservatives rather than the NDP. This group basically decides every federal election. There's plenty of political polarization, and I certainly don't think the average base Liberal voter would prefer Poilievre to Singh. But the Liberals aren't quite losing their base yet, so they're not shedding too many "orange Liberals". The Liberal Party's base is primarily motivated by stopping Conservatives, and the Liberals remain the choice more likely to do so. However, many Liberal voters are closer to Tories than the NDP. They don't make up much of the Liberal activist base, and are basically a dead (or at least very quiet) breed among Liberal MPs under Trudeau, but they do rely on the support of these swing voters. These voters aren't really Liberals or Conservatives, they can really be either depending on the mood of the nation. Then there are some people who want change above anything else. And I would strongly argue that the NDP's parliamentary partnership with the Liberals greatly hurts their case. The Conservatives have basically been given a monopoly over the "change uber alles" vote, because the NDP is the lifeblood of this no good very bad government that Canadians want to get rid of.

But as fickle as voters in my home province of Ontario are, it seems like Newfoundland is going through an actual realignment. Historically, it's basically a Liberal fiefdom, at least federally. It was the last province to join Canada, before which point it was basically a rural, underdeveloped British fishing colony that the British didn't really care about. Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949 under a Liberal government, and the provincial Liberal government of Joey Smallwood really heralded a strong liberal-populist legacy. It remained very impoverished for decades, at least by Canadian standards, so the party of more generous social spending obviously caught on. Even when they had a PC government, they were so at odds with the federal Conservatives that their Conservative premier started an "ABC" (Anybody but Conservative) movement, go figure. In 2015, Trudeau's Liberals received 65% of the vote in NL. 82% in one district. Sadam Hussein margins.

But let's take a closer look at Newfoundland and Labrador. It's predominantly rural, Christian, white, and they're older than median. They have a massive oil industry, and close ties to the Conservative heartland of Alberta, due to the now-famous phenomenon of young men from Newfoundland moving to Alberta to work in the oil sands. Many of those latter-day albertans come back to the rock with loads of oil money, as well as Albertan conservatism, traditionally unheard of in Newfoundland and Labrador. Then you have a federal government that hasn't endeared itself to people in and around the oil industry, to put it mildly. In particular, their taxes on fossil fuels have become very unpopular, even the Liberal Premier is opposed to the Liberal Prime Minister's measures. While he's not going full on Danny Williams and launching an "ABL" campaign, his vocal disagreement with his own party's federal cousins is telling of the mood out there.

Basically, Newfoundland and Labrador is Canada's RGV. An underdeveloped part of the country nowhere near the places people care about, totally detached from the national mainstream. Liberal populism rules the roost throughout the 20th century. But in the 21st century, it finds itself a much more naturally conservative place, both due to its very conservative culture and close ties to the oil industry. Their traditional liberal party is increasingly dominated by urban people, and the cultural gap is widening.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

I genuinely do not believe Trudeau or any other member of Cabinet was at fault for this, unless there's any evidence to the contrary it feels like an extremely cut-and-dry situation of Rota and/or Rota's staff being extremely incompetent, inviting a constituent without doing any due diligence.

You don't think Freeland emerges worse out of this?

She takes a personal hit because talk about Ukrainian Nazis draws attention to her grandfather who was a Ukrainian Nazi, sure. But most reasonable people can understand that being the granddaughter of a Nazi, doesn't make one a Nazi. Either way, I was just saying I personally don't think anyone in cabinet was responsible for Hunka's invitation, Freeland or otherwise.

She literally did her thesis on Ukraine and WW2 so her giving him a standing ovation makes it all the more suspicious

At any rate, I think there are far more tangible and relevant things to criticize Freeland on.

[Upper Canada Tory]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1707346630305865746?t=6tLyc-KO2hItyDC8Ag...
So this poll came out. I find it fairly informative,  cause it's going to be perhaps the only federal poll of the province for a long time, perhaps until the GE if even. So there is data here with a respectable MOE rather than the usual absurdly small sample size of the N&L subsample in Altantic Canada polls.

I would put the numbers here as only a bit worse that 2011 for the liberals, just with the Conservatives pulling the voters rather than the NDP.  However,  the Tories having a more efficient vote distribution means the liberals probably only hold St. John's South and Avalon,  compared to the 4 seats held in 2011.

I do not know much about Canadian politics, but why are Liberal voters flocking to the Tories, rather than the NDP?

So that was a poll of only Newfoundland and Labrador, interestingly. In most of Canada, it's not at all unheard of for Liberals to switch to Conservatives rather than the NDP. This group basically decides every federal election. There's plenty of political polarization, and I certainly don't think the average base Liberal voter would prefer Poilievre to Singh. But the Liberals aren't quite losing their base yet, so they're not shedding too many "orange Liberals". The Liberal Party's base is primarily motivated by stopping Conservatives, and the Liberals remain the choice more likely to do so. However, many Liberal voters are closer to Tories than the NDP. They don't make up much of the Liberal activist base, and are basically a dead (or at least very quiet) breed among Liberal MPs under Trudeau, but they do rely on the support of these swing voters. These voters aren't really Liberals or Conservatives, they can really be either depending on the mood of the nation. Then there are some people who want change above anything else. And I would strongly argue that the NDP's parliamentary partnership with the Liberals greatly hurts their case. The Conservatives have basically been given a monopoly over the "change uber alles" vote, because the NDP is the lifeblood of this no good very bad government that Canadians want to get rid of.

But as fickle as voters in my home province of Ontario are, it seems like Newfoundland is going through an actual realignment. Historically, it's basically a Liberal fiefdom, at least federally. It was the last province to join Canada, before which point it was basically a rural, underdeveloped British fishing colony that the British didn't really care about. Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949 under a Liberal government, and the provincial Liberal government of Joey Smallwood really heralded a strong liberal-populist legacy. It remained very impoverished for decades, at least by Canadian standards, so the party of more generous social spending obviously caught on. Even when they had a PC government, they were so at odds with the federal Conservatives that their Conservative premier started an "ABC" (Anybody but Conservative) movement, go figure. In 2015, Trudeau's Liberals received 65% of the vote in NL. 82% in one district. Sadam Hussein margins.

But let's take a closer look at Newfoundland and Labrador. It's predominantly rural, Christian, white, and they're older than median. They have a massive oil industry, and close ties to the Conservative heartland of Alberta, due to the now-famous phenomenon of young men from Newfoundland moving to Alberta to work in the oil sands. Many of those latter-day albertans come back to the rock with loads of oil money, as well as Albertan conservatism, traditionally unheard of in Newfoundland and Labrador. Then you have a federal government that hasn't endeared itself to people in and around the oil industry, to put it mildly. In particular, their taxes on fossil fuels have become very unpopular, even the Liberal Premier is opposed to the Liberal Prime Minister's measures. While he's not going full on Danny Williams and launching an "ABL" campaign, his vocal disagreement with his own party's federal cousins is telling of the mood out there.

Basically, Newfoundland and Labrador is Canada's RGV. An underdeveloped part of the country nowhere near the places people care about, totally detached from the national mainstream. Liberal populism rules the roost throughout the 20th century. But in the 21st century, it finds itself a much more naturally conservative place, both due to its very conservative culture and close ties to the oil industry. Their traditional liberal party is increasingly dominated by urban people, and the cultural gap is widening.

Sorry, I'm not the best with acronyms. What does 'RGV' stand for?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1707346630305865746?t=6tLyc-KO2hItyDC8Ag...
So this poll came out. I find it fairly informative,  cause it's going to be perhaps the only federal poll of the province for a long time, perhaps until the GE if even. So there is data here with a respectable MOE rather than the usual absurdly small sample size of the N&L subsample in Altantic Canada polls.

I would put the numbers here as only a bit worse that 2011 for the liberals, just with the Conservatives pulling the voters rather than the NDP.  However,  the Tories having a more efficient vote distribution means the liberals probably only hold St. John's South and Avalon,  compared to the 4 seats held in 2011.

I do not know much about Canadian politics, but why are Liberal voters flocking to the Tories, rather than the NDP?

So that was a poll of only Newfoundland and Labrador, interestingly. In most of Canada, it's not at all unheard of for Liberals to switch to Conservatives rather than the NDP. This group basically decides every federal election. There's plenty of political polarization, and I certainly don't think the average base Liberal voter would prefer Poilievre to Singh. But the Liberals aren't quite losing their base yet, so they're not shedding too many "orange Liberals". The Liberal Party's base is primarily motivated by stopping Conservatives, and the Liberals remain the choice more likely to do so. However, many Liberal voters are closer to Tories than the NDP. They don't make up much of the Liberal activist base, and are basically a dead (or at least very quiet) breed among Liberal MPs under Trudeau, but they do rely on the support of these swing voters. These voters aren't really Liberals or Conservatives, they can really be either depending on the mood of the nation. Then there are some people who want change above anything else. And I would strongly argue that the NDP's parliamentary partnership with the Liberals greatly hurts their case. The Conservatives have basically been given a monopoly over the "change uber alles" vote, because the NDP is the lifeblood of this no good very bad government that Canadians want to get rid of.

But as fickle as voters in my home province of Ontario are, it seems like Newfoundland is going through an actual realignment. Historically, it's basically a Liberal fiefdom, at least federally. It was the last province to join Canada, before which point it was basically a rural, underdeveloped British fishing colony that the British didn't really care about. Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949 under a Liberal government, and the provincial Liberal government of Joey Smallwood really heralded a strong liberal-populist legacy. It remained very impoverished for decades, at least by Canadian standards, so the party of more generous social spending obviously caught on. Even when they had a PC government, they were so at odds with the federal Conservatives that their Conservative premier started an "ABC" (Anybody but Conservative) movement, go figure. In 2015, Trudeau's Liberals received 65% of the vote in NL. 82% in one district. Sadam Hussein margins.

But let's take a closer look at Newfoundland and Labrador. It's predominantly rural, Christian, white, and they're older than median. They have a massive oil industry, and close ties to the Conservative heartland of Alberta, due to the now-famous phenomenon of young men from Newfoundland moving to Alberta to work in the oil sands. Many of those latter-day albertans come back to the rock with loads of oil money, as well as Albertan conservatism, traditionally unheard of in Newfoundland and Labrador. Then you have a federal government that hasn't endeared itself to people in and around the oil industry, to put it mildly. In particular, their taxes on fossil fuels have become very unpopular, even the Liberal Premier is opposed to the Liberal Prime Minister's measures. While he's not going full on Danny Williams and launching an "ABL" campaign, his vocal disagreement with his own party's federal cousins is telling of the mood out there.

Basically, Newfoundland and Labrador is Canada's RGV. An underdeveloped part of the country nowhere near the places people care about, totally detached from the national mainstream. Liberal populism rules the roost throughout the 20th century. But in the 21st century, it finds itself a much more naturally conservative place, both due to its very conservative culture and close ties to the oil industry. Their traditional liberal party is increasingly dominated by urban people, and the cultural gap is widening.

Sorry, I'm not the best with acronyms. What does 'RGV' stand for?

Rio Grande Valley

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

The important thing to note about the collapse of the Grand Banks fishing industry was they continued to fish for cod at increasing rates (and were encouraged to by the federal government of the day) even after warnings were issued by every possible environmental body in the 1980s. Which is why the scale of collapse was much worse than in the North Sea, where action was taken earlier and where stocks have partially and tentatively recovered.

If I remember correctly, subsidies from the federal government to the fishing industry also contributed heavily to the overfishing of cod.

It really was a textbook example of natural resources mismanagement, literally, as in you'll find it on every Resource Economics textbook used in Canada.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Historical question: say you were Liberal campaign manager in 1957. How would you have run that campaign?

[Open Source Intelligence]

I genuinely do not believe Trudeau or any other member of Cabinet was at fault for this, unless there's any evidence to the contrary it feels like an extremely cut-and-dry situation of Rota and/or Rota's staff being extremely incompetent, inviting a constituent without doing any due diligence.

You don't think Freeland emerges worse out of this?

She takes a personal hit because talk about Ukrainian Nazis draws attention to her grandfather who was a Ukrainian Nazi, sure. But most reasonable people can understand that being the granddaughter of a Nazi, doesn't make one a Nazi. Either way, I was just saying I personally don't think anyone in cabinet was responsible for Hunka's invitation, Freeland or otherwise.

She literally did her thesis on Ukraine and WW2 so her giving him a standing ovation makes it all the more suspicious

At any rate, I think there are far more tangible and relevant things to criticize Freeland on.

David Herle and Scott Reid on Curse of Politics have routinely criticized her on public-facing economic management, or lack thereof.

Crazy how she's gone from "Justin Trudeau's Natural Successor as Prime Minister" to whatever she is now.

Something happened in the federal Liberal Party leadership and its MP's post-2021 election, and it still has not come out what. They went forever on coming back to work and creating a government and since they still can't find their groove. The only thing I can think of is there were loud grumblings about Trudeau as leader with them not improving/not getting a majority, and since that was resolved quietly he remains in power some Liberals are resigned to getting thrashed/losing jobs next election and lost their mojo. This is just a theory and other than what I listen to and read on Canadian politics, I have no insider insight. But what are some other plausible reasons?

You'd think Poilievre becoming Opposition Leader would get them on the ball but the government seems constrained by the broader economy they have no intention or will to do anything. Fixing housing is a tough job, but it's one that should once you take actions to do it you can then point to easily quantifiable numbers like "we have more housing starts, prices are down in these areas", etc. Instead of what are they doing now on it? The Ukrainian Nazi salute get rid of the histrionics of it and it was a genuine mistake, if you had an enthusiastic government doing its job and paying attention to details, that never occurs because some staffer would've been assigned to dig into it and Google searching "First Ukrainian Division" would have raised "hey, we need to stop this now". The whole Chinese political influence thing and the Johnston Report. Their defense for why it didn't reach Trudeau's attention was it sat on Bill Blair's desk for 6 months. There's one of 2 possible explanations for that and only 2. The first is Blair was running defense for Trudeau so Trudeau could escape blame for something he did not want to do. The second is Bill Blair was completely absentee incompetent at his job. Blair in the latest Cabinet reshuffle got promoted. Which sends the wrong signal if you believe in good governance if the real reason is #1, and also does not say anything about good governance if the real reason is #2. The whole thing with India how do you do that without ally support? On another forum a known Canadian colonel has stated the whole thing was to expose (and therefore destroy) RAW intelligence networks in all of the Five Eyes countries, but to do so without publicizing evidence and making yourself appear alone on the world stage? For a person so concerned with public image as Justin Trudeau is?

In 2073 when they do Historical Prime Minister rankings, I don't think he'll turn out well.

[CumbrianLefty]

Historical question: say you were Liberal campaign manager in 1957. How would you have run that campaign?

Differently?

[Hatman 🍁]

I'm not sure the RGV comparison makes sense, entirely. Despite its demos, Newfoundland is not a particularly socially conservative place - and I think this has made it difficult in the past for Conservatives to make inroads there (in addition to the perception that the Tories hate poor people). Of course, with the Tories shifting their rhetoric in a more populist direction, this has helped them make said inroads.

[Oryxslayer]

https://twitter.com/CanadianPolling/status/1709259684362834023?t=iHY6Xa1k3X2zCqU...

Confusing timing to have the vote

From one of the safest liberal seats to.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

University of Calgary investigates Nazi-style march through student residence

What is going on up there Canada? Is everything okay?

[Red Velvet]

University of Calgary investigates Nazi-style march through student residence

What is going on up there Canada? Is everything okay?

What? It has always been like that though? Where do you think Nazis went to after WW2 ended in Europe? To the Americas, mostly to whiter regions or countries like Canada.

Only single difference between say, Canada and Argentina on this matter, is that Canada has its own individual and more complex reputation inside USA since you’re neighbors, so you know a lot more about there to not define it by such simplistic one-note terms. You were the ones who created the who created the whole positive stereotype about Canadians based on how much you love them.

But world has always seen Canada as a safe refugee place for extremists and terrorists, not only WW2 Nazis. Still much a much better reputation than US Florida though.

[MaxQue]

University of Calgary investigates Nazi-style march through student residence

What is going on up there Canada? Is everything okay?

Why do you think Conservatives had a freak-out last week when the government proposed to publish the confidential appendix to the 80's report about Neo-Nazi immigration?

Hint: most of that immigration moved to the Prairies.

[Upper Canada Tory]

University of Calgary investigates Nazi-style march through student residence

What is going on up there Canada? Is everything okay?

Why do you think Conservatives had a freak-out last week when the government proposed to publish the confidential appendix to the 80's report about Neo-Nazi immigration?

Hint: most of that immigration moved to the Prairies.

Yet somehow the descendants of that immigration ended up in the Liberal cabinet and as Trudeau's Deputy PM (aka Chrystia Freeland).

[MaxQue]

University of Calgary investigates Nazi-style march through student residence

What is going on up there Canada? Is everything okay?

Why do you think Conservatives had a freak-out last week when the government proposed to publish the confidential appendix to the 80's report about Neo-Nazi immigration?

Hint: most of that immigration moved to the Prairies.

Yet somehow the descendants of that immigration ended up in the Liberal cabinet and as Trudeau's Deputy PM (aka Chrystia Freeland).

Well, she grew in Alberta, so that tracks. It's also already known.

[Red Velvet]

If you read the Deschenes Commission report (which in my view describes the events in an incredibly whitewashed way, but still has some useful information nonetheless), Canada is a little different in that there was the assumption that not all of the former Nazi soldiers had individually committed war crimes.

Lmaaao. Okay, if that better appeases to your nationalist senses.

[MaxQue]

Also a reminder that we were heavily pressured by the UK government into taking some.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Something happened in the federal Liberal Party leadership and its MP's post-2021 election, and it still has not come out what. They went forever on coming back to work and creating a government and since they still can't find their groove. The only thing I can think of is there were loud grumblings about Trudeau as leader with them not improving/not getting a majority, and since that was resolved quietly he remains in power some Liberals are resigned to getting thrashed/losing jobs next election and lost their mojo. This is just a theory and other than what I listen to and read on Canadian politics, I have no insider insight. But what are some other plausible reasons?

I think this is a good, and underrated point. I will say that the 2021 election was probably a good idea, in hindsight. The economic problems plaguing Canada right now would have happened regardless, and had Trudeau completed the 4-year mandate from 2019, we would be in a federal election right now, and the vote would have been scheduled for October 23, 2023. We don't know how things will be in 2025, but we do know how things are in 2023, and these are NOT the conditions for re-election.

But yeah, something happened post-2021 that has been haunting the Liberals. I remember the overconfidence Liberals had in the summer of 2021, they really thought a majority would just be a matter of asking the Canadian people for one. But it really wasn't an insurmountable lead, most polls had the Liberals ahead of the Tories by like 5 points or so, or somewhere in that neighbourhood. With the very efficient Liberal vote distribution, that's a majority (hell, they were only 11 seats from a majority despite losing the popular vote). But a 5ish point lead is very easy to lose over the course of a campaign, and the Liberals learned that the hard way. Their confidence was shattered, and it shows, in how the government has gotten noticeably more sloppy since that election. And now being outpolled so thoroughly by Pierre Poilievre, a man many Liberals assumed would be a terminally unelectable crackpot - and I don't just mean the Tories leading in vote intention, I mean Poilievre himself outpolling Trudeau in "preferred PM" polls, this can't be good for the Liberals' self-confidence.

As for Freeland herself, have we maybe considered that perhaps she's actually not that good of a politician? I'm not even talking about her views or beliefs, one can debate those, but I mean her messaging is just not that good. She got a lot of good press during her time as trade minister and later as foreign minister. And I'll be the first to admit that she was very good at those roles. But the "promotion" to finance minister and deputy PM seem to have been something of a "curse in disguise", because she's simply not that good at that role. A cabinet minister can be an absolute rockstar in one role, and a big fat flop in another. Being finance minister doesn't play to her strengths. Maybe this was a cunning Machiavellian move by Trudeau to put his biggest potential challenger in a role she's not very well-suited for, but in any case, the last time she truly felt like a PM-in-waiting was during the whole "two Michaels" saga.

Aussi, son francais n'est pas bon. A Tory leader can get away with speaking bureaucrat French, a Liberal leader can't. The last time a non-Francophone Liberal leader won a general election was Lester Pearson in 1965.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

I'm not sure the RGV comparison makes sense, entirely. Despite its demos, Newfoundland is not a particularly socially conservative place - and I think this has made it difficult in the past for Conservatives to make inroads there (in addition to the perception that the Tories hate poor people). Of course, with the Tories shifting their rhetoric in a more populist direction, this has helped them make said inroads.

Fair enough, I think this is where it's worth making a distinction between social conservatism and cultural conservatism. Social conservatism, as in being very religious and holding distinctly conservative views on things like abortion is mainly concentrated in the prairies, parts of BC like the Fraser Valley, rural southern Ontario, and New Brunswick's Bible Belt. But "cultural" conservatism, as in generally being against or at least being alienated by the culture of Canada's liberal urban intelligentsia, has appeal beyond the traditionally so-con areas. I think Poilievre is apt in understanding this distinction, he's very hesitant to make any statement that has even a whiff of social conservatism. The closest we've had is his weighing in on the parental rights controversy, and even then his take was "Trudeau should butt out of provincial jurisdiction". But his appeal to cultural conservatives is strong nonetheless. Even the carbon tax issue, I would argue, is as much as a "big cities vs small towns" cultural difference as it is an economic issue.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

If you read the Deschenes Commission report (which in my view describes the events in an incredibly whitewashed way, but still has some useful information nonetheless), Canada is a little different in that there was the assumption that not all of the former Nazi soldiers had individually committed war crimes.

Lmaaao. Okay, if that better appeases to your nationalist senses.

Incredibly childish response, but okay. I am critical of Canada in many aspects, including this one, but the truth/nuance of a situation matters. Has nothing to do with nationalism.

I understand the nuance you're offering, but I wouldn't extend the same understanding to any member or even supporter of the Liberal Party. They call their opponents Nazis for much less, it happened in the House just last week! I think it's perfectly valid to discuss the specifics of pro-Nazi immigration to Canada, and the exact extent of their crimes. But I genuinely don't think that discussion can credibly happen in the political sphere, because if it's fair game to compare modern Canadian Conservatives to Nazis, I don't want to hear about how actual Nazi ex-soldiers were akhchually not that bad. If they want to compare what is now a solid 40% of Canadians to Nazis, I don't want to hear anything from them, short of an unequivocal condemnation, concerning actual Nazis who fought for Hitler

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

but that had nothing to do my point.

I know, I just wanted to get that off my chest  

But seriously, I'm much more respectful of the Liberals than most online Conservatives (maybe only slightly beat out by you lol), but on this particular issue, I passionately despise them. The Liberals like to portray themselves as glorious saviours who will protect Canada during this era of rising extremism around the world, when in reality all they've done is used that worrying phenomenon as a wedge issue during elections. There have been multiple instances, one from the Prime Minister himself, using the House as a forum to call his political opponents Nazis (the one swastika flag that popped up during the convoy was immediately condemned and no Conservative MP "stood with" the guy, but I digress). He also wedged the last federal election by equating Conservatives with "anti-vaxxers", and all that did (other than contributing to his short-term political gain) helped fuel a much more militant anti-vaxx movement that became the focal point of significant civil strife.

Meanwhile, they have been terrible at actually combatting these issues. Worse, they've become the very thing that many people who honestly believe in liberalism absolutely hate. They brought in a law that gives the CRTC a broad mandate to regulate what kind of content is promoted on the internet. They then brought in a law, that in effect, makes it harder for people to access news on the internet. Both justified by a kind of nationalistic populism, something our dear leader claims, very very strongly and convincingly, is a plague upon the world that he will protect Canadians from. In reality, they basically justify these measures by saying "yeah but do you want the big bad no good very bad *ahem* AMERICAN CORPORATIONS to take over our beloved country?"

I mean, the Liberals have always resorted to cheap nationalistic rhetoric when backed against a corner. John Turner did the same with NAFTA, which did not in fact erase the 49th parallel with a giant eraser. But their approach to media, how on earth is that a liberal response to creeping authoritarianism? I mean, if Viktor Orban passed laws that sought to impose restrictions on what Hungarians can see on the internet, I doubt your average Liberal supporter would think that's a good thing. But no, it's okay when Canada does it, because the law has good intentions and not bad intentions and that's definitely how government works.

And yet, it's hard to see exactly what the damn government is actually doing about rising acts of extremist violence. Nova Scotia shooting, the RCMP was completely ill-equipped to respond, and the legislative response was a gun bill that went way beyond and tried to ban guns that are never used in mass shootings. Not one, but two nationalistic foreign states have now meddled in Canada's internal affairs, with one allegedly assassinating a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil. Mainstream Canada is starting to learn about how tensions have been rising for years within our very large Indo-Canadian community regarding this once-dead Khalistan issue, and it's not clear what, if anything, the Canadian government did to address this.

I am just sick and tired of the Liberal government trying to claim ANY authority over the authoritarian, extremist, and/or populist threats to liberal democracy, because it's a whole lot of rhetoric and not a lot of action.

[Upper Canada Tory]

but that had nothing to do my point.

I know, I just wanted to get that off my chest  

But seriously, I'm much more respectful of the Liberals than most online Conservatives (maybe only slightly beat out by you lol), but on this particular issue, I passionately despise them. The Liberals like to portray themselves as glorious saviours who will protect Canada during this era of rising extremism around the world, when in reality all they've done is used that worrying phenomenon as a wedge issue during elections. There have been multiple instances, one from the Prime Minister himself, using the House as a forum to call his political opponents Nazis (the one swastika flag that popped up during the convoy was immediately condemned and no Conservative MP "stood with" the guy, but I digress). He also wedged the last federal election by equating Conservatives with "anti-vaxxers", and all that did (other than contributing to his short-term political gain) helped fuel a much more militant anti-vaxx movement that became the focal point of significant civil strife.

Meanwhile, they have been terrible at actually combatting these issues. Worse, they've become the very thing that many people who honestly believe in liberalism absolutely hate. They brought in a law that gives the CRTC a broad mandate to regulate what kind of content is promoted on the internet. They then brought in a law, that in effect, makes it harder for people to access news on the internet. Both justified by a kind of nationalistic populism, something our dear leader claims, very very strongly and convincingly, is a plague upon the world that he will protect Canadians from. In reality, they basically justify these measures by saying "yeah but do you want the big bad no good very bad *ahem* AMERICAN CORPORATIONS to take over our beloved country?"

I mean, the Liberals have always resorted to cheap nationalistic rhetoric when backed against a corner. John Turner did the same with NAFTA, which did not in fact erase the 49th parallel with a giant eraser. But their approach to media, how on earth is that a liberal response to creeping authoritarianism? I mean, if Viktor Orban passed laws that sought to impose restrictions on what Hungarians can see on the internet, I doubt your average Liberal supporter would think that's a good thing. But no, it's okay when Canada does it, because the law has good intentions and not bad intentions and that's definitely how government works.

And yet, it's hard to see exactly what the damn government is actually doing about rising acts of extremist violence. Nova Scotia shooting, the RCMP was completely ill-equipped to respond, and the legislative response was a gun bill that went way beyond and tried to ban guns that are never used in mass shootings. Not one, but two nationalistic foreign states have now meddled in Canada's internal affairs, with one allegedly assassinating a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil. Mainstream Canada is starting to learn about how tensions have been rising for years within our very large Indo-Canadian community regarding this once-dead Khalistan issue, and it's not clear what, if anything, the Canadian government did to address this.

I am just sick and tired of the Liberal government trying to claim ANY authority over the authoritarian, extremist, and/or populist threats to liberal democracy, because it's a whole lot of rhetoric and not a lot of action.

Fair enough. I don't mind you getting that off your chest, I just didn't want my argument to be misinterpreted.

Yeah, you're right about this, and I will also point out that hate crimes have also increased in the last few years under the LPC government, against many groups but particularly Jewish Canadians, who are the top target of hate crimes in the country, and the Liberals have done nothing about this rise of extremism either while our Liberal PM called accused Jewish MP Melissa Lantsman of 'standing with swastikas'. Talk about blaming the victim.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Yeah, you're right about this, and I will also point out that hate crimes have also increased in the last few years under the LPC government, against many groups but particularly Jewish Canadians, who are the top target of hate crimes in the country

Speaking of Jewish Canadians, today's revelations of a war in Gaza is already spilling over into Canadian public life. I would hate to turn this thread into yet another Israel-Palestine s--t flinging contest, I only bring this up to point out that conflict in that part of the world often correlates with a rise in antisemitic violence. We've already started increasing police presence at synagogues and mosques, which is a good thing. But with this government's weak record on taking strong preventative measures on crime and violence, I'm not too confident in them.