NY: Trump on Trial!

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

The idea that the case is "very weak" seems to be based on the fact that Bragg wasn't very specific about what election laws were violated.  But some analysts have said that Bragg was actually being smart in not going into specifics.  If so, the conventional analysis is way off the mark.  

The only laws available to him are very vague.

I think he was being vague not on the laws, but on the crimes Trump committed or sought to commit that supposedly turned the 34 counts into felonies instead of misdemeanors.

I actually don’t think Bragg was vague.  Bragg was pretty specific about the statutes he believes Trump broke, and how he believes Trump violated them.

I’m saying that these statutes themselves are vague, and it is unclear whether the conduct Trump is alleged to have committed constitutes a violation of those laws. And I don’t believe there are any additional specific facts that could be added that would resolve the vagueness, at least not in a way that would merit conviction.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I find such a conclusion premature at best.  

This is worth a look:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2023/04/04/bragg-past-case-trump-indictment-miller-analysis-ebof-vpx.cnn

I think it is telling that virtually every Republican, even the most anti-Trump Republicans, have uniformly come to the conclusion that this prosecution is meritless. This was not the case with respect to any of the other pending criminal investigations of Trump, or either of Trump’s impeachments.

Meanwhile, Democrats who want to hold out hope on this case are left more or less saying “well, maybe there’s still something out there we don’t know yet.” Until today, I was one of those people. But based on what we got today, I think the door to this is almost entirely shut.

I despise Trump and believe he has committed many crimes for which he should be and could be successfully prosecuted. But this just isn’t one of them.

Edit: Also, if Bragg truly believes that Trump violated NY state campaign laws, why not prosecute him for violating those laws?

[Sir Mohamed]

So I'm not a lawyer, but there are really arguments this case is weak? If Bragg's indictment is mainly based on testimony of Cohen and Daniels, that could be weakspot? A convicted felon and p*rn star might not be the most credible witnesses before any jury. That said, I think it's still important this goes to court. Trump should get a fair trial and if guilt can't be proved beyond a reasonable doubt (although to me it's clear he's guilty of that), he won't get convicted.

I see a potential risk here, because if Trump is acquitted in the end, it may make him a martyr again. Though that will be only after the 2024 election. Not to mention more cases related to him are pending, especially the Fulton County stuff and the DOJ investigating January 6.

[Sir Mohamed]

On an additional vote: Kind of funny is that the police listed Trump's height at 6'1 and weight at 270 lbs (!!). Not close to the 6'3 and 239 lbs he claimed. Although that was obvious from the start. That's a BMI close to 36. He's obese big league.

https://www.politicalflare.com/2023/04/the-nypd-weighed-trump-as-part-of-the-booking-process-and-guess-what-trump-doesnt-weigh-239-pounds-and-isnt-63/

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Garland needs to charge Trump now on J6

[emailking]

Edit: Also, if Bragg truly believes that Trump violated NY state campaign laws, why not prosecute him for violating those laws?

One possibility is he might not feel there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt of that. I don't think that standard is necessary to elevate these other crimes from misdemeanors to felonies though.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

So I'm not a lawyer, but there are really arguments this case is weak? If Bragg's indictment is mainly based on testimony of Cohen and Daniels, that could be weakspot? A convicted felon and p*rn star might not be the most credible witnesses before any jury. That said, I think it's still important this goes to court. Trump should get a fair trial and if guilt can't be proved beyond a reasonable doubt (although to me it's clear he's guilty of that), he won't get convicted.

I see a potential risk here, because if Trump is acquitted in the end, it may make him a martyr again. Though that will be only after the 2024 election. Not to mention more cases related to him are pending, especially the Fulton County stuff and the DOJ investigating January 6.

Cohen’s testimony would be important to establish that Trump deliberately falsified the records. I think Bragg probably has strong evidence on this point, and Trump likely is guity of this, but this by itself is a misdemeanor.

There needs to be an underlying crime to elevate it to a felony.  And this underlying crime is apparently that this was an illegal campaign contribution. Cohen’s testimony could also establish that Trump thought the payment would help his campaign, and thus makes the argument that it could possibly be classified as an in-kind contribution. But whether this sort of payment should ever constitute a campaign contribution is not obvious in the statute. And as this is a question of law and not a question of fact, I don’t think Cohen’s testimony is really relevant to that point.

[Storr]

https://twitter.com/PaulaChertok/status/1643431823135895552?s=20

[Landslide Lyndon]

https://twitter.com/TheUSASingers/status/1643462751304445952

[SWE]

The third world is laughing at us:

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1643343155574767617

A criminal dictator is siding with Trump on the question of whether or not laws should apply to heads of state and this is supposed to reflect well on Trump?

[emailking]

https://twitter.com/PaulaChertok/status/1643431823135895552?s=20

Credit to MSNBC for not airing them in the first place lol. They told us he was talking now and they would monitor it.

[Crumpets]

The third world is laughing at us:

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1643343155574767617

A criminal dictator is siding with Trump on the question of whether or not laws should apply to heads of state and this is supposed to reflect well on Trump?

So far we have Bukele and Orban putting out statements in support of Trump. Anybody else?

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

This should bring the GA and J6 Indictments to the forefront the Docugate is gonna go last obviously because it has to do with also Hunter Laptop

Feds don't have to have an independent council for J6 they can take the Congressional Select Commission as Evidence to a Grand Jury and for a Trial that's why Garland can indict now Trump on J6 not on Docugate

If I was an Attorney I would take the Select Commission as Evidence they impeached Trump on it

[Sir Mohamed]

https://twitter.com/TheUSASingers/status/1643462751304445952

lololol... though looks like something was thrown on his way.

That said, I might have rushed to help the dude, even though he's an apparent moron, or at least ask whether he's ok unless he got up immediately. Perhaps I would later have asked him whether he still thinks all Dems are evil.

[ProudModerate2]

https://twitter.com/TheUSASingers/status/1643462751304445952

lololol... though looks like something was thrown on his way.

That said, I might have rushed to help the dude, even though he's an apparent moron, or at least ask whether he's ok unless he got up immediately. Perhaps I would later have asked him whether he still thinks all Dems are evil.

LOL.
Looks like a small skateboard he ran over. You can see a child trying to get it, and I think he is the one yelling "stop, stop" trying to warn others that his skateboard got away from him.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Alvin Bragg needs weight watchers, that fat idiot didn't visit a buffet he didn't like

So you're reduced to body shaming the DA now?

[ProudModerate2]

Alvin Bragg needs weight watchers, that fat idiot didn't visit a buffet he didn't like

It's always deflection from the trump cult.

[ProudModerate2]

https://twitter.com/PaulaChertok/status/1643431823135895552?s=20

Yep.
I indicated on the last page, how my local TV station did the same. Even the local Fox station here, dumped trump. LOL.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

What happened to "just wait until the indictment comes out, surely there's more to it than paying off porn stars guys"?

I was one of these people, and my immediate reaction (in this thread) to reading the indictment is that it’s extremely disappointing and underwhelming. Based on what has now been made public, I think the case is very weak and probably should not have been brought.

The idea that the case is "very weak" seems to be based on the fact that Bragg wasn't very specific about what election laws were violated.  But some analysts have said that Bragg was actually being smart in not going into specifics.  If so, the conventional analysis is way off the mark.  

The only laws available to him are very vague.

I think he was being vague not on the laws, but on the crimes Trump committed or sought to commit that supposedly turned the 34 counts into felonies instead of misdemeanors.

I actually don’t think Bragg was vague.  Bragg was pretty specific about the statutes he believes Trump broke, and how he believes Trump violated them.

I’m saying that these statutes themselves are vague, and it is unclear whether the conduct Trump is alleged to have committed constitutes a violation of those laws. And I don’t believe there are any additional specific facts that could be added that would resolve the vagueness, at least not in a way that would merit conviction.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I find such a conclusion premature at best.  

This is worth a look:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2023/04/04/bragg-past-case-trump-indictment-miller-analysis-ebof-vpx.cnn

I think it is telling that virtually every Republican, even the most anti-Trump Republicans, have uniformly come to the conclusion that this prosecution is meritless. This was not the case with respect to any of the other pending criminal investigations of Trump, or either of Trump’s impeachments.

I think the near-universal Republican outrage at the case has more to to with charges that could concievably lead to a guilty verdict than with any objective judgement. (If they were willing to be remotely impartial in public, they would not be allowed to be Republicans.) With prior investigations and impeachments, they knew there was neither the will nor the votes to impose real consequences on Trump, no matter how minor. Here, it is a possibility. And that is what has them closing ranks. One thing that unites Republicans is the desire to avoid the consequences of their abuses.

What's telling to me is that among all the various Republican whines, screams, and complaints, I have yet to see a single one claim "he didn't do it". The GOP is a party of crime (and treason).  Of course they're rejecting the idea that an entitled jackwagon could possibly face justice - stopping that from happening is a large part of why they exist in the first place!

[Torie]

It's time to get back to the case at hand, after an interruption in the usual programming.

One major problem with the Bragg case is mixing and matching state and federal law. Using purported federal violations to extend the SOL for state violations causes considerable skepticism in elite legal circles. But now a new angle is the state bookkeeping fraud was to facilitate state tax fraud, state on state rather than state on federal.

The NYT article does not get very far in the weeds on this, so indulge me while I speculate a bit. Trump seemed to take a phony tax deduction by converting a non-deductible hush money payment into deductible legal services. Cohen converted a non-taxable reimbursement payment into pseudo taxable income for himself, and thus the gross up payment. The state might have ended up net with more tax revenue, but it was attended by fraud and involved switching taxpayers.

Normally a state would not be too motivated to pursue tax fraud where it made money, but nothing about this case is normal. Wheels within wheels within wheels. The new theory is confusingly pleaded, perhaps by design, but soon the prosecution will have to lay its cards on the table, and spill its guts: 

“What is going to happen now is that the prosecutors are obligated to disclose things in discovery,” he said. “Defense counsel will learn in discovery the nature of the elections laws violations and the tax issues that were raised by Mr. Bragg in his statement of facts.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/us/politics/trump-bookkeeping-fraud-taxes.html

[DaleCooper]

Alvin Bragg needs weight watchers, that fat idiot didn't visit a buffet he didn't like

So you're reduced to body shaming the DA now?

It would be a fair statement if Trump himself wasn't literally 450 pounds overweight.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

It's time to get back to the case at hand, after an interruption in the usual programming.

One major problem with the Bragg case is mixing and matching state and federal law. Using purported federal violations to extend the SOL for state violations causes considerable skepticism in elite legal circles. But now a new angle is the state bookkeeping fraud was to facilitate state tax fraud, state on state rather than state on federal.

The NYT article does not get very far in the weeds on this, so indulge me while I speculate a bit. Trump seemed to take a phony tax deduction by converting a non-deductible hush money payment into deductible legal services. Cohen converted a non-taxable reimbursement payment into pseudo taxable income for himself, and thus the gross up payment. The state might have ended up net with more tax revenue, but it was attended by fraud and involved switching taxpayers.

Normally a state would not be too motivated to pursue tax fraud where it made money, but nothing about this case is normal. Wheels within wheels within wheels. The new theory is confusingly pleaded, perhaps by design, but soon the prosecution will have to lay its cards on the table, and spill its guts: 

“What is going to happen now is that the prosecutors are obligated to disclose things in discovery,” he said. “Defense counsel will learn in discovery the nature of the elections laws violations and the tax issues that were raised by Mr. Bragg in his statement of facts.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/us/politics/trump-bookkeeping-fraud-taxes.html

I was really hoping the indictment would involve some allegation of tax fraud.  But going by the statement of facts released by Bragg’s office, it doesn’t.

[emailking]

Alvin Bragg needs weight watchers, that fat idiot didn't visit a buffet he didn't like

Well I thought your posts were reasonable to this point.

[Sir Mohamed]

Alvin Bragg needs weight watchers, that fat idiot didn't visit a buffet he didn't like

Like Mr. 270 pounds?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Alvin Bragg needs weight watchers, that fat idiot didn't visit a buffet he didn't like

Like Mr. 270 pounds?

This thread is awful. My life is worse every time I click on it.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Alvin Bragg needs weight watchers, that fat idiot didn't visit a buffet he didn't like

Like Mr. 270 pounds?

This thread is awful. My life is worse every time I click on it.

The west has fallen, billions must die