DC Unrest Megathread

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I had this question a couple weeks ago and I don't think I got an answer--can anyone be preemptively pardoned? I mean, someone must be convicted of a specific crime before being given the get-out-of-jail-free card, right?

No, they don't have to be convicted; see Ford's pardon of Nixon.

Carter also blanket-pardoned a bunch of draft dodgers, which is one thing people are worried Trump might do with the Capitol terrorists.

[Dr Oz Lost Party!]

https://twitter.com/Politics1com/status/1347269980841078784?s=20

[hyouzel the predictor]

https://twitter.com/Politics1com/status/1347269980841078784?s=20

This, and her other moderate quotes and realistic attitude, makes her by far my favorite GOP Congresswoman and I would want her to stay if she wasn't replacing another excellent Dem representative.

[NYSforKennedy2024]

https://twitter.com/Politics1com/status/1347269980841078784?s=20

My new favorite House member.

[rhg2052]

Regardless of what happens - anyone have a growing anxiety of inevitable violence because of how far the QAnon theories and bullsh**t have gone?

I'm sickened to say that I'm just naturally a Republican, and I want to think the party has a future outside of Trump, but that future must not involve destroying our country over his loss.

If you remain a Republican, you are complicit.

[Crumpets]

Trump is going to Camp David.

I'm sure it's because he's "feeling unwell" or something. 

[GeorgiaModerate]

Trump is going to Camp David.

I'm sure it's because he's "feeling unwell" or something. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_Camp_David

(A terrific novel, as are all of Knebel's political thrillers.)

[Tartarus Sauce]

I had this question a couple weeks ago and I don't think I got an answer--can anyone be preemptively pardoned? I mean, someone must be convicted of a specific crime before being given the get-out-of-jail-free card, right?

No, they don't have to be convicted; see Ford's pardon of Nixon.

Carter also blanket-pardoned a bunch of draft dodgers, which is one thing people are worried Trump might do with the Capitol terrorists.

I believe in that scenario it’s actually possible for the rioters to be tried in Congress considering they quite literally obstructed their proceedings and a pardon wouldn’t shield them from congressional jurisdiction.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/BeschlossDC/status/1347277979748081664

[hyouzel the predictor]

Regardless of what happens - anyone have a growing anxiety of inevitable violence because of how far the QAnon theories and bullsh**t have gone?

I'm sickened to say that I'm just naturally a Republican, and I want to think the party has a future outside of Trump, but that future must not involve destroying our country over his loss.

If you remain a Republican, you are complicit.

As a leftist I really don't agree with this whole "If you are Republican you basically stormed the capitol!!" schtick. Like having the values of small government, low taxes, social conservative values are all things that would make you vote for Trump, and those people should be Republicans as none of those values are inherently bad. I always say that there is a big difference between Trump "voters" and Trump "supporters." Trump "voters" are people like Kander who recognize that while Trump governed as a moderate Republican president, voted for him in 2016 for change and were mostly turned off by his actions but some still voted for him. Trump "voters" are not the ones in the cult.

The cult, the "supporters" are complicit. Think Fuzzy, Woodbury, those types of people. And even them, I still feel bad because they are being manipulated by Trump and conservative voices to believe things that aren't true about the election and essentially our reality. They have been brainwashed to think a certain way, feel a certain way, all of the negative qualities that we like to pin on Republicans and Trump voters overall. I think that the majority of Trump "voters" either didn't vote for him again in 2020 or held their nose for the economy or taxes, but those are not the same people as the enthusiastic supporters who are the ones committing these acts. Yes, people who voted for Trump, both in 2016 and 2020, are responsible for this happening, but that doesn't mean that all Republicans are responsible for Trump's actions.

I agree with you that the vast majority of elected Republicans are complicit, but you also have to remember that whenever they "vote with Trump" they are just voting the conservative position, which happens to be the same that Trump has latched on to so he wins more votes. Also, especially as tensions begin to heat up in real life between Trump supporters and others, we on here need to be understanding to Republicans and Trump "voters" that now feel regret for voting for him regardless of whether they are switching parties or not. Someone can be honorable while still having conservative ideologies, look at Mitt Romney. Stuck to his guns for 4 years of constant attacks from Trump.

I guess my point is saying that all Republicans are complicit is like saying that everyone who peacefully protested this summer, in any capacity, is responsible for the destruction caused by the rioters. (not a fair comparison)

[Del Tachi]

Capitol police has charged the following 14 people in relation with yesterday's events:


Unlawful Entry:
Leonard Guthrie, Cape May, N.J.
John Anderson, St. Augustine, Fla.
Matthew Council, Riverview, Fla.
Bradley Ruskelas, Inverness, Ill.
Michael Curzio, Summerfield, Fla
Cindy Fitchett, Cobbs Creek, Va.
Terry Brown, Myerstown, Pa.
Douglas Sweet, Hudgins, Va.
Thomas Gallagher, Bridgewater, N.H.
Zandra Sixkiller-Cramer, Glenwood, Md.

Assaulting a Police Officer, Unlawful Entry, Resisting Arrest:
Mark Leffingerwell, No fixed address

CPWL & Unregistered ammunition:
Grant Moore, Buford, Ga.

CPWL, Unregistered Firearm, Unregistered Ammunition:
Lonnie Zoffman, Falkville, Al.

Assaulting a Police Officer:
David Blair, Clarksburg, Md.

Very disappointed to see someone from Inverness on this list. I used to live very close to there.

crazy people live everywhere.  Is this really news? 

Of course, crazy people live everywhere, but that doesn't mean one cannot condemn them or express their disappointment about them. Now, I have a question of my own. Do you hold Trump responsible for what happened yesterday? If not, why?

I categorically condemn what happened yesterday as an unlawful disruption of the proceedings of our Constitutional government.  I believe Trump's rhetoric has enabled certain agitators to be more bold and brazen than they otherwise would have been.  He deserves criticism not only for this rhetoric but especially for a slow and lax response yesterday that allowed the situation to spiral into violence and anarchy.   He is no commander-in-chief, and he cannot be trusted to enforce the rule of law over his final 13 days in office.  For that, he must be removed from office ASAP.   

Yesterday's events are an abject law enforcement failure on behalf of the U.S. Capitol Police, who failed to maintain a secure perimeter around our Capitol while both houses of Congress were convened inside.  The first priority should be a thorough investigation into why a secure perimeter around the Capitol was not maintained as well as ensuring enhanced security in advance of the January 20th inauguration.  What happened is, above all, a law enforcement issue - not a matter of rebellion or national insurrection. 

I also believe everyone saw what they wanted to yesterday.  If you already believed Trump and his supporters to be fascist demagogues, as many have for 4+ years, then you probably interpret what happened yesterday as nothing short of an attempt to overthrow our government:  an insurrection, a coup, a literal terrorist attack.  If you believe in "law and order," then you see what happened at the Capitol yesterday as no worse than the chaos and anarchy that overtook multiple American cities for weeks on end this past summer.  I happen to lean more towards the latter interpretation.

There is something stomach-churning to watching MSM talking heads, establishment politicians, and F500 execs all aghast at yesterday's property damage when they hand-waved or even celebrated the same when it was being done in the name of "racial justice."  They say this is an attack on our "democracy" but make no mistake, their indignation results from what they perceive to be an attack on a system that has been built to personally enrich and benefit themselves.  They have no similar concern for democracy or the rule of law when lawless criminals enforce their will upon citizens living in our inner-cities and loot from our neighbors.  They are speaking only for themselves; unfortunately, there is no one speaking for the business owners and shopkeepers who saw their livelihoods decimated -- first by COVID-19 lockdowns and then by looting/rioting done in the name of BLM.       

Yesterday, all of the nuance Democrats have insisted on when separating "peaceful protesters" and "rioters" went out the window as soon as the partisan roles were reversed.  You've read it here on the Forum and seen it spoken by Members of Congress, the liberal orthodoxy is now that every single Trump supporter is complicit in a treasonous attempt to overthrow our government.  That is not the language of reconciliation.  Our country will be worse off if the partisan response is to replace perceived grievance with actual grievance.

[The Dowager Mod]

And there it is folks, BUT BLM/ANTIFA!

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

And there it is folks, BUT BLM/ANTIFA!

Is that the current "both sides do it" thingy?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

After chaos reigns, the 'S' goes to the other word and Chao resigns.

[The Dowager Mod]

And there it is folks, BUT BLM/ANTIFA!

Is that the current "both sides do it" thingy?

I think so, But I'm not one of the cool kids.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

After chaos reigns, the 'S' goes to the other word and Chao resigns.

Well her husband could have been killed yesterday, so no surprise here.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

And there it is folks, BUT BLM/ANTIFA!

Yeah, you deleted all the posts yesterday about it.  One doesn't forgive the other, but the 100 days of the Siege of Portland, the CHAZ, etc were all more violent than this event.  It just hit "closer to home" for some.  I moved here from the Twin Cities due to people burning down many city blocks of businesses and homes.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

And there it is folks, BUT BLM/ANTIFA!

Is that the current "both sides do it" thingy?

I think so, But I'm not one of the cool kids.

Yeah, cool isn't a word I'd use to describe you.  

[7,052,770]

And there it is folks, BUT BLM/ANTIFA!

Yeah, you deleted all the posts yesterday about it.  One doesn't forgive the other, but the 100 days of the Siege of Portland, the CHAZ, etc were all more violent than this event.  It just hit "closer to home" for some.  I moved here from the Twin Cities due to people burning down many city blocks of businesses and homes.

Absurd. The attempted violent overturning of a presidential election, stoked by the president himself, is many orders of magnitude worse than the terrible violence that came as an unfortunate side effect over the summer.

[The Dowager Mod]

I guess I'm just dense, I don't see the equivalency in people rioting when unarmed minorities are murdered by the police and a bunch of entitled white right wing terrorists try to overthrow the will of the people.

[Non Swing Voter]

It's so brave of these officials who have grifted for the last four years to resign in disgust 13 days before Trump leaves office.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

And there it is folks, BUT BLM/ANTIFA!

Yeah, you deleted all the posts yesterday about it.  One doesn't forgive the other, but the 100 days of the Siege of Portland, the CHAZ, etc were all more violent than this event.  It just hit "closer to home" for some.  I moved here from the Twin Cities due to people burning down many city blocks of businesses and homes.

Absurd. The attempted violent overturning of a presidential election, stoked by the president himself, is many orders of magnitude worse than the terrible violence that came as an unfortunate side effect over the summer.

Not to sound too idpol-oriented, but if you're in an advanced stage of right-wing authoritarian brain rot then maybe it does stand to reason that violently overturning a presidential election and thinking that maybe cops should be a little less happy to gun down black people for looking at them funny are equally egregious violations of state legitimacy.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

I guess I'm just dense, I don't see the equivalency in people rioting when unarmed minorities are murdered by the police and a bunch of entitled white right wing terrorists try to overthrow the will of the people.

I equivocate death with death, destruction with destruction.  No matter the purported cause of these events, the individual actors of these crimes are not necessarily part of the movements they co-opt.

And I feel for people that lost their businesses and don't have a massive federal infrastructure to protect or recompense our affected elected officials.

[Karpatsky]

The importance of this case has nothing to do with property damage and has nothing beyond surface appearance in common with the riots which occurred this summer. This is about rule of law and the constitutional order.

The rioters in that case were overwhelmingly opportunistic and their aims were criminal, not connected to a political aim. This is true even of the most 'political-adjacent' cases, e.g. occupations of police stations; these acts did not have an objective besides possibly 'sending a message'  and were not supported by either political or (significant) activist figures.

In this case, the rioters attacked the national legislature while it was in session with the explicit intent to derail a legal and constitutional transfer of power. The attack was planned and premeditated with that political justification, and was encouraged by a political leader who would benefit from that derailment (there is also reporting, though unconfirmed as far as I know, that said political leader intervened to prevent law enforcement from intervening).

This is not difficult to see. It's you and people like you alone who are making an incredible effort to attempt not to see it to preserve your political worldview.

[BlueSwan]

the 100 days of the Siege of Portland, the CHAZ, etc were all more violent than this event.

This is an absolutely insane take.