Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[compucomp]

The fact that one European state is inflicting such unspeakable evil on another European state and its citizens in this day and age is something I never expected to witness. We truly live in a different world now that this has happened, and it will never be as before again.

Channeling Prince William huh? Still believe in the White Man's Burden?

[compucomp]

The fact that one European state is inflicting such unspeakable evil on another European state and its citizens in this day and age is something I never expected to witness. We truly live in a different world now that this has happened, and it will never be as before again.

Channeling Prince William huh? Still believe in the White Man's Burden?

No idea what this babbling is supposed to mean, but as a European I find a war on my own continent in a country I visited multiple times quite a bit more scary than elsewhere. Sue me.

I'm referring to the racist statement made by Prince William a few days ago calling war in Europe "alien". Saying that war and destruction is familiar to Asia and Africa but foreign to Europe is channeling white supremacy and the very essence of the "White Man's Burden" concept used to justify colonialism a century ago.

Britain’s Prince William drew sharp criticism after he said Wednesday that it was “alien” to see war in Europe. Part of the backlash came from a string of media reports implying that he was saying that such conflicts were more common in Africa and Asia, though video of his comments didn’t show the comparison.

Local media reported that he made the remark during a visit to the Ukrainian Cultural Center in London. For Britons of his generation, he said, “it’s very alien to see this in Europe.”

“We are all behind you,” he reportedly said, expressing support for the people of Ukraine, who have been subjected to widespread bombings by Russia during its invasion of their country.

[compucomp]

The fact that one European state is inflicting such unspeakable evil on another European state and its citizens in this day and age is something I never expected to witness. We truly live in a different world now that this has happened, and it will never be as before again.

Channeling Prince William huh? Still believe in the White Man's Burden?

No idea what this babbling is supposed to mean, but as a European I find a war on my own continent in a country I visited multiple times quite a bit more scary than elsewhere. Sue me.

I'm referring to the racist statement made by Prince William a few days ago calling war in Europe "alien". Saying that war and destruction is familiar to Asia and Africa but foreign to Europe is channeling white supremacy and the very essence of the "White Man's Burden" concept used to justify colonialism a century ago.

Britain’s Prince William drew sharp criticism after he said Wednesday that it was “alien” to see war in Europe. Part of the backlash came from a string of media reports implying that he was saying that such conflicts were more common in Africa and Asia, though video of his comments didn’t show the comparison.

Local media reported that he made the remark during a visit to the Ukrainian Cultural Center in London. For Britons of his generation, he said, “it’s very alien to see this in Europe.”

“We are all behind you,” he reportedly said, expressing support for the people of Ukraine, who have been subjected to widespread bombings by Russia during its invasion of their country.

How brain dead do you have to be to think it's racist to call something that hasn't happened in Europe in 80 years "alien"?

I didn't write this article saying he drew "sharp criticism", WaPo did. Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks he expressed a white supremacist sentiment that whites are inherently superior and "more civilized" than non-white savages who would be "expected" to engage in war and destruction often.

[compucomp]

Poland_invoking_NATO_article_5_meme.png

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1502868126085570560?s=20&t=R7mVaon0k...

So it turned out to be the right decision for the US and other NATO countries to tread lightly in supplying Ukraine, lest they be hit in attacks like this and then be forced to join the war. The people on this forum who have been strongly advocating otherwise are now revealed to be warmongers. What a contrast between now and 20 years ago when these same people were likely to be strongly opposing the war in Iraq.

[compucomp]

Apparently Russia has asked China for military assistance
https://www.ft.com/content/30850470-8c8c-4b53-aa39-01497064a7b7?desktop=true&segmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a#myft:notification:instant-email:content

And so what? How much military aid has the West given Ukraine? Far greater than zero, yes?

[compucomp]

I find it extremely unlikely that China would provide any type of direct military assistance to Russia.

As it is what there is of the Chinese Tech Sector is already walking a really fine line with the Global Sanctions Regime against Russia, where simply trading with a banned Russian entity and basically completely demolish their inexpensive alternatives within the European, Asian-Pacific market, not to mention the US market for a range of consumer goods.

Sure China will likely try to fill the gap in the Russian market for consumer electronic items such as PCs, Printers, and Cell Phones, but anything involving "dual use technologies" will cause those companies more harm than good, considering the relatively small share of the Global Market which Russia consists of.

Additionally, many subcomponents used in Chinese Electronic Mfg plants actually are manufactured elsewhere, not to mention some of the tooling in the fabs, etc...

As it is, pretty sure the US will be talking be all of these related issues with China in Rome coming up here....

Forgive me if I don't do a wall of quotes from various recent articles related to this at the moment.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/13/russia-ukraine-war-news-live-updates/#link-UD2Q4MAMAJEAZO5TUEYSMNX4JA

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chip-makers-stockpiled-key-materials-ahead-of-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-11647167582?mod=livecoverage_web

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-11/card/u-s-national-security-advisor-jake-sullivan-to-meet-with-chinese-official-on-ukraine-Kt4HRrsR6vz0yH4t9Pmo

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/03/12/will-china-offer-russia-financial-help

You make good points about the real intention of this leak. I'm now thinking that this was intentionally leaked by the US government to swing their dicks and show off how powerful their sanctions are in deterring China from aiding Russia. They score some cheap reputation points this way about how they are still in charge of the world. Well, I think it's time for China to call their bluff and aid Russia if only to spit in the face of the sanctions. I'm not saying the sanctions would not hurt China, because as you detailed they would. But it's time for China to stand its ground and retaliate with its own sanctions, possibly up to an embargo. Everyone knows midterm elections are in 8 months. The only Russian export bought in meaningful quantities in the US is oil and gas price surge is already causing consternation in the US. You thought inflation and supply chain issues were bad now? Remember March 2020 when masks and hand sanitizer were sold out everywhere and surgical masks were going for $1 apiece? Does Biden really want to risk economic and possible societal meltdown just in time for Democrats to be demolished, so he can help Ukraine? Really?

[compucomp]

The logic of some internet "journalists" is incredibly dumb. "Why is the mainstream media resistant to reporting US troop movements close to a warzone?!?!"

They happily report on Russian troop movements. You're making the argument that because the American media is doing the bidding of the US government on this issue, Russia is perfectly justified in treating them in the same way the US treated RT.

[compucomp]

Russia Imposes Sanctions on Biden, Blinken.  Sanctions would block entry to Russia, freeze any assets there

Did they sanction Hunter Biden? Trololololol?

[compucomp]

Financial Times reports that Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to three people involved in the talks.

I read over that article (link below), honestly I think it's not a bad result for Russia given the gains they have made up to now, if in addition they get that Ukraine renounces their claim to the Donbass and Crimea then they probably should accept the deal and declare victory.

Edit: If Ukraine is seriously considering any iteration of this deal then it means they know they are still in trouble and their nation has suffered from the war, and it's not all peaches and roses as their propaganda, cheerfully relayed on this thread, would have us believe.

https://www.ft.com/content/7b341e46-d375-4817-be67-802b7fa77ef1

[compucomp]

The Case Of Russia's Apparently Back From The Dead Black Sea Warship

Tl;dr the rocket barrage against the Vasily Bykov mentioned a few days ago most likely didn't work. Ukraine was right to request anti-ship missiles.

The real takeaway from this article is that many Ukrainian reports of casualties, battlefield victories, etc, are exaggerated or outright fake news. Another example is how the former mayor of Melitopol was supposedly rescued in a Ukrainian "special operation" but then it was revealed that he was released in a prisoner swap. Now I don't begrudge the Ukrainians for this, they are at war, they are supposed to release propaganda in their favor and say that they have suffered zero casualties while inflicting infinity on the enemy. But there is no reason for us external observers to believe in these reports as many of this thread seem to do. I imagine most thinking Ukrainians don't even believe in the reports but are obliged to stay in line because they are Ukrainian.

[compucomp]

The Case Of Russia's Apparently Back From The Dead Black Sea Warship

Tl;dr the rocket barrage against the Vasily Bykov mentioned a few days ago most likely didn't work. Ukraine was right to request anti-ship missiles.

The real takeaway from this article is that many Ukrainian reports of casualties, battlefield victories, etc, are exaggerated or outright fake news.

That  is not the point of the article at all.  It explicitly was limited was limited to saying that the reported sinking of a Russian vessel, which was reported as "probably" sunk, apparently was only damaged. There's nothing whatsoever in there about all the other reports of large amounts of Russian troop and equipment losses being over-reported.

Around a week ago this thread breathlessly celebrated as they accepted without question the Ukrainian report of supposed ambush that destroyed the Vasily Bykov. Turns out that report was fake news. Given the obvious interest the Ukrainian government and media has in putting out favorable reports regardless of veracity, and now multiple documented cases where these reports have proven to be fake, how can any thinking person trust the reports coming out of Ukrainian sources? If you tell me one lie, then everything else you say is questionable too, that's how society has always worked. Clearly people in this thread are more interested in cheerleading for Ukraine than getting at the truth, which is their right, but they are bound to be disappointed if/when the two stray far from each other.

[compucomp]

https://twitter.com/BeijingPalmer/status/1504551175747784704?s=20&t=xZU0kT80...
More China stuff. Apparently the line from the censors is to avoid content that is clearly pro or anti Ukraine/Russia and just present the situation. Which matches what Bejing seems to be signaling: neutrality with the aim of exploiting the eventual outcome to its fullest.  

Yeah for all compucomp claiming to be a CCP hack he is being quite weird here. It seems his opinion is more pro Russia than anything. China rn is in a very strong position to just stay out of this and enjoy cheap Russian resources while not taking major relationship hits with the west. Compucomp is instead arguing for aid to Russia when that would cause actual relationship degradation. Now the US may be more hostile to China but China could definetely lose a lot of relation with the EU if they actively support Russia.

I'm aware that the situation is fluid and that China is adjusting its stance moving towards being more accommodating towards the West. Yesterday it was announced that China will work with the SEC to establish standards for Chinese firms to list in the US (disclaimer, I hold MCHI which went up 20% on this news), and while this has nothing to do with the war, this is a signal on China's attitude on it since with China the level of cooperation with the West is tightly correlated on everything. If you read my posts carefully I'm not expressing pro-Russian views but rather views opposing Western hegemony and bullying behavior; unlike the actual Russians here that got banned, I never made any comment on how Ukrainians don't deserve their own country, that they're a bunch of Nazis, defending Russia's conduct in the war, etc.

If our leaders judge that the right thing to do is to beat a retreat, back away from Russia, and repair relations with the West, then I'll suck it up and adjust my views since they know better than me. Sometimes one just has to accept an L. Up until last week or so the official stance of the Foreign Ministry was quite bellicose and anti-Western so I'm not the only one that has to make an adjustment. We'll see how the Biden-Xi call goes, if Biden really wants to encourage Xi down this path then he will retreat a bit on some of his other anti-China stances, or he can push Xi back towards Putin by not doing so.

[compucomp]

https://twitter.com/BeijingPalmer/status/1504551175747784704?s=20&t=xZU0kT80...
More China stuff. Apparently the line from the censors is to avoid content that is clearly pro or anti Ukraine/Russia and just present the situation. Which matches what Bejing seems to be signaling: neutrality with the aim of exploiting the eventual outcome to its fullest.  

Yeah for all compucomp claiming to be a CCP hack he is being quite weird here. It seems his opinion is more pro Russia than anything. China rn is in a very strong position to just stay out of this and enjoy cheap Russian resources while not taking major relationship hits with the west. Compucomp is instead arguing for aid to Russia when that would cause actual relationship degradation. Now the US may be more hostile to China but China could definetely lose a lot of relation with the EU if they actively support Russia.

I'm aware that the situation is fluid and that China is adjusting its stance moving towards being more accommodating towards the West. Yesterday it was announced that China will work with the SEC to establish standards for Chinese firms to list in the US (disclaimer, I hold MCHI which went up 20% on this news), and while this has nothing to do with the war, this is a signal on China's attitude on it since with China the level of cooperation with the West is tightly correlated on everything. If you read my posts carefully I'm not expressing pro-Russian views but rather views opposing Western hegemony and bullying behavior; unlike the actual Russians here that got banned, I never made any comment on how Ukrainians don't deserve their own country, that they're a bunch of Nazis, defending Russia's conduct in the war, etc.

If our leaders judge that the right thing to do is to beat a retreat, back away from Russia, and repair relations with the West, then I'll suck it up and adjust my views since they know better than me. Sometimes one just has to accept an L. Up until last week or so the official stance of the Foreign Ministry was quite bellicose and anti-Western so I'm not the only one that has to make an adjustment. We'll see how the Biden-Xi call goes, if Biden really wants to encourage Xi down this path then he will retreat a bit on some of his other anti-China stances, or he can push Xi back towards Putin by not doing so.

Pretty sure you specifically argued that China should send aid to Russia. This makes no sense from a Chinese perspective as China is getting great deals from Russia. This is also the first event in a long time which has truly united the West. Seeing Germany go to 2% GDP spending on military spending finally is a huge step.  Meanwhile as it stands the US is generally quite anti China as a whole from either party but the EU is much more mixed. Trying to push the EU back towards the US is utterly idiotic. The only answer for wanting China to send aid to Russia is either to actually help Russia or literally owning the libs where liberal means the collective West as a whole.

After how the West has treated China for generations, you're damn right China wants to stick it to the West. This has even extended to how they have treated China during this war, almost as if it were a belligerent, as compared to India which has received kid gloves, despite the actions of their governments being the same. Of course China wants to support Russia to spite the West. There will be a day when China stands up and challenges the West rather than accommodating them, and honestly I'd rather see that sooner rather than later since it's tough to watch China get pushed around and bullied. Clearly the West is not interested in genuinely dealing with us on equal terms as a partner nation.

[compucomp]

Today the Shandong (China's aircraft carrier) sailed through the Taiwan Strait, undoubtedly a provocative signal. So despite the signals from before, we're still playing both sides and looking out for our own interests. Xi and Biden have begun their video chat, we'll see what results. I do think China can make accommodations to the Americans on the war, if the Americans accommodate China on an important issue, like on tariffs. Honestly this is in American interests as well as it is the easiest way to reduce inflation. However if Biden offers nothing and just lectures Xi about "democracy and freedom" like he's done in the past, then Xi will not concede anything and the meeting will have no result.

[compucomp]

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1504892608660840450
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1504892944867856385

Seems like pretty standard stuff. It doesn't seem like the White House is signaling a major shift in Beijing's position, at least not based on this.

Beijing's position is a lameass "war is bad, but we won't say aloud that Russia is bad too" that probably won't change for quite a while.

Clearly Joe did not have any intention of bargaining to get China to move in his favor but instead tried to browbeat Xi into submission with "freedom and democracy" rhetoric and threatening sanctions. Thus the result is what we see, the Chinese position remains unchanged, we're keeping the option open to supply Russia, and the Americans are disappointed.

By the way, there has been some stuff written that China's state media is changing its coverage on the war, I watched some of its coverage today and I think there is a game being played by CCTV. On its English language channel, indeed the coverage is less focused on Russia's view and more on the humanitarian and Ukrainian view, but on the Chinese language channel the coverage is still slanted pretty heavily in Russia's favor. Since I can understand both this is kind of amusing to observe, but apparently the game is successful in the sense that it has fooled NYT and WaPo.

[compucomp]

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1504892608660840450
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1504892944867856385

Seems like pretty standard stuff. It doesn't seem like the White House is signaling a major shift in Beijing's position, at least not based on this.

Beijing's position is a lameass "war is bad, but we won't say aloud that Russia is bad too" that probably won't change for quite a while.

Clearly Joe did not have any intention of bargaining to get China to move in his favor but instead tried to browbeat Xi into submission with "freedom and democracy" rhetoric and threatening sanctions. Thus the result is what we see, the Chinese position remains unchanged, we're keeping the option open to supply Russia, and the Americans are disappointed.

A lack of change in Beijing's position is not actually as disappointing to us dastardly foreign devils as you seem to think, since a day or two ago Blinken was implying that the concern was that China might start very overtly aiding Russia's increasingly incoherent war aims (whatever the hell those are), which is not currently happening. Sure, Blinken is an idiot, but he's also the Secretary of State and presumably had somebody's permission to stoke fears (or hopes, if one enjoys unprovoked mass slaughter as much as you keep claiming not to) of that.

the humanitarian and Ukrainian view,

Mask off. Not a clown but the whole circus. Saying the quiet part out loud. Whatever else people are saying these days about this sort of remark.

And we still might start, if the Americans provoke us further. It's clear we refused to rule it out. We're certainly not going to be deterred by American threats, if anything, threats make us more likely to supply Russia.

The coverage of the humanitarian aspect in Western media is heavily slanted in Ukraine's favor, just like every other aspect. Yes, there are civilians dying, and that's a tragedy. But it's a freaking land war between armies of hundreds of thousands, this is to be expected. There's a lot of coverage of Mariupol as some kind of atrocity, but apparently the media is  forgetting that this is how sieges have worked for the entirety of history? I'm pretty sure WW2 generals would fall out of their chairs laughing if you tried discussing with them about "humanitarian corridors." CNN, NYT, etc cover breathlessly bombed apartment buildings, but they overlook the fact that the latest count of civilian deaths is about 1.5K (edit, 850 per UN count from CNN just now) , and this is a minuscule number in comparison to the 15K or so dead combatants. Clearly an effort is being made to minimize civilian casualties, otherwise we would see WW2 strategies of level bombers destroying whole city blocks with napalm and heavy artillery brought up in large numbers to reduce surrounded cities. Not nearly this much effort was spent by CNN/NYT/etc to cover civilian deaths when the Americans invaded Afghanistan and particularly Iraq.

[compucomp]

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1504892608660840450
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1504892944867856385

Seems like pretty standard stuff. It doesn't seem like the White House is signaling a major shift in Beijing's position, at least not based on this.

Beijing's position is a lameass "war is bad, but we won't say aloud that Russia is bad too" that probably won't change for quite a while.

Clearly Joe did not have any intention of bargaining to get China to move in his favor but instead tried to browbeat Xi into submission with "freedom and democracy" rhetoric and threatening sanctions. Thus the result is what we see, the Chinese position remains unchanged, we're keeping the option open to supply Russia, and the Americans are disappointed.

A lack of change in Beijing's position is not actually as disappointing to us dastardly foreign devils as you seem to think, since a day or two ago Blinken was implying that the concern was that China might start very overtly aiding Russia's increasingly incoherent war aims (whatever the hell those are), which is not currently happening. Sure, Blinken is an idiot, but he's also the Secretary of State and presumably had somebody's permission to stoke fears (or hopes, if one enjoys unprovoked mass slaughter as much as you keep claiming not to) of that.

the humanitarian and Ukrainian view,

Mask off. Not a clown but the whole circus. Saying the quiet part out loud. Whatever else people are saying these days about this sort of remark.

And we still might start, if the Americans provoke us further. It's clear we refused to rule it out. We're certainly not going to be deterred by American threats, if anything, threats make us more likely to supply Russia.

The coverage of the humanitarian aspect in Western media is heavily slanted in Ukraine's favor, just like every other aspect. Yes, there are civilians dying, and that's a tragedy. But it's a freaking land war between armies of hundreds of thousands, this is to be expected. There's a lot of coverage of Mariupol as some kind of atrocity, but apparently the media is  forgetting that this is how sieges have worked for the entirety of history? I'm pretty sure WW2 generals would fall out of their chairs laughing if you tried discussing with them about "humanitarian corridors." CNN, NYT, etc cover breathlessly bombed apartment buildings, but they overlook the fact that the latest count of civilian deaths is about 1.5K (edit, 850 per UN count from CNN just now) , and this is a minuscule number in comparison to the 15K or so dead combatants. Clearly an effort is being made to minimize civilian casualties, otherwise we would see WW2 strategies of level bombers destroying whole city blocks with napalm and heavy artillery brought up in large numbers to reduce surrounded cities. Not nearly this much effort was spent by CNN/NYT/etc to cover civilian deaths when the Americans invaded Afghanistan and particularly Iraq.

Ratio + L + cope + seethe

Back to the low effort non sequitur responses again? Who takes the W or L is still to be decided; I will say that if the US and China end up in a trade war, the US will suffer historic inflation and supply shortages among other economic consequences and the Democrats will be utterly destroyed in November.

[compucomp]

Back to the low effort non sequitur responses again? Who takes the W or L is still to be decided; I will say that if the US and China end up in a trade war, the US will suffer historic inflation and supply shortages among other economic consequences and the Democrats will be utterly destroyed in November.

Speaking of non sequiturs, lol.

Anyway, clearly the biggest L was taken by your parents, whose only child, I presume, ended up being, well, you.

LMAO, they are quite proud that despite being constantly exposed to Western propaganda,  I remain loyal to my people and my country. This is after all a common Western mistake; you love to think that Chinese people are all brainwashed by their government and would overthrow it if they were just informed, does it kill you to know that most Chinese people genuinely support the government and the party, especially when the USA is held up as an alternative?

[compucomp]

Although not much of a division within Latin America and the Caribbean:

But do go on about the West. Fascists of a feather flock together and all that.

You mean condemning Russian invasion? That’s just everyone’s sane position. Even China doesn’t agree with it even if they won’t directly oppose Russia and will rather hide behind neutrality.

One very different thing is supporting this articulation of full isolation of a country and realistically, you cannot deny there isn’t a major geographical divide shaping up. Forget China, there’s also:

- India is working for an alternative exchange way to go around western sanctions
- South Africa publicly saying the war is NATO’s fault
- Brazil joined the countries above in asking for Russia’s claim of US Biological labs to be investigated and wanting Russia partnership for its nuclear subs projects
- Saudi Arabia (!!!!) studying to make payments to Russia in Chinese coin. Even Israel, seen as western ally, behaved more like Iran in this issue lol
- Mexico, Argentina and others positioning against the international institutions being kidnapped to propel an isolation of Russia. And those all are places which condemned the invasion when it started, as you said.

The only non-Anglo and non-European countries that are aligning are Japan and South Korea. You can’t talk about “international community united” without almost all of Asia, all of Africa and Latin America. It’s a divide being stimulated that simply isn’t good for anyone, if you don’t understand the possible consequences.

Great post. Clearly if we look just slightly under the surface, there are clearly multiple viewpoints in the world on the conflict. This was my original point to post in this thread, for a forum that is very politically aware and can find and discuss multiple sides on just about any issue, even most international ones, for some reason has a huge blind spot on this issue and only accepts the Western view. Under the standard of the old Fairness Doctrine, which most liberals still believe in, there should be a Russian posting in this thread telling us about how those Nazi followers of Stepan Bandera are slaughtering people in the Donbass. I'm what passes for pro-Russian in this thread, since the actual Russians have been silent, probably banned, since the war started, and I'm far from the Russian position.

Back to the low effort non sequitur responses again? Who takes the W or L is still to be decided; I will say that if the US and China end up in a trade war, the US will suffer historic inflation and supply shortages among other economic consequences and the Democrats will be utterly destroyed in November.

Speaking of non sequiturs, lol.

Anyway, clearly the biggest L was taken by your parents, whose only child, I presume, ended up being, well, you.

LMAO, they are quite proud that despite being constantly exposed to Western propaganda,  I remain loyal to my people and my country. This is after all a common Western mistake; you love to think that Chinese people are all brainwashed by their government and would overthrow it if they were just informed, does it kill you to know that most Chinese people genuinely support the government and the party, especially when the USA is held up as an alternative?

Why don’t you move to China if  you like it so much , and given you call China your country instead of the US .


You are literally the best possible example of how immigrants should not act and you are a disgrace to the immigrant community

This…is a bit too far. Immigrants can be supportive of certain policies of their homeland even if there were other reasons they left. The only disgraces to the immigrant community imo are those who rally against immigration in general (not illegal immigration so don’t start there) immediately once they get here.

It'd be one thing if he just had strong opinions on the politics of the country he immigrated from; that's any immigrant's right, and Lord knows I have strong opinions on Italian (and Russian for that matter!) politics despite my people having immigrated from Italy and Russia a century ago. The issue is that he openly and affirmatively roots for relations between his home country and his current country of residence to worsen, to the point of sneering at the latter's humanitarian concerns about a country that's currently more friendly to the former bombing theaters and hospitals as part of an unprovoked war of conquest. Actively advocating worse relations between two countries one has extensive ties to is bad form, to say the least, without even bringing questions of loyalty into it.

I'd love to see good relations between China and the USA, but not on American terms based on the attitude of the last two presidents. Trump hated China on a deeply personal level, and was an untrustworthy piece of sh**t, and Biden seems to think the world is still as it was 20 years ago and the USA can dictate terms to China. The call between Xi and Biden is a great example, Biden demands that China withdraw support for Russia without offering anything to bargain. Naturally Xi doesn't give him anything, and today the Vice Foreign Minister calls sanctions "outrageous" and blames NATO expansionism for the war. Yeah, relations between China and USA got worse, and that's unfortunate, but the alternative for Xi was to surrender to Biden and that's just plain unacceptable. I think a deal could have been acceptable, for example where China backed away from Russia in exchange for American action on trade or Taiwan, and this would improve the relations between the two countries, but Biden was not interested.

[compucomp]

Can ya'll seriously stop feeding the troll? Most of the last 3 pages have been taken up by a inane debate caused by one or two bootlickers

Not everyone who disagrees with you in automatically a troll.

But compucomp is

You can call me what you want. But the fact is, I am expressing the views broadly held by 1.4 billion people, 1.3 billion or so have a government whose actions up to now are indistinguishable from China's, and as described by Red Velvet earlier in this thread, hundreds of millions live in countries that either sympathize with the alternate viewpoint or refuse to go along with Western sanctions, including American allies Saudi Arabia and Israel. I thought this was a political forum to discuss all viewpoints, and normally it is, but for some reason on this issue it is a complete echo chamber.

Again what exactly does sending aid to Russia give you? If you truly do want better US China relations but are also willing to balance other factors how will China sending aid to Russia benefit either America or China or their relations ?

Your position is merely one of wanting to own the libs.

It's quite embarrassing for Russia but they might need our support to keep the war going to a conclusion they can claim is a "win". If I really want to "take off the mask" and go full realpolitik, then I would say that having Russia as the West's chief antagonist is very good for China as then it means China is not, and Russia can be a huge supplier of energy and food for China to compensate for us possibly having our sea lanes cut off by the Americans. But Putin being removed and Russia in ruins or as a pro-Western client state would be a huge loss for China; we lose our ally, we become public enemy #1 to the West again, and Western relations with China will only get worse from that point; in short if Russia falls we're next.

[compucomp]

You can call me what you want. But the fact is, I am expressing the views broadly held by 1.4 billion people, 1.3 billion or so have a government whose actions up to now are indistinguishable from China's, and as described by Red Velvet earlier in this thread, hundreds of millions live in countries that either sympathize with the alternate viewpoint ....

a) How did you come up with such completely random numbers? Did you personally poll the world's population over the weekend or is it just an ass-pull on your part?

b) Making outlandish statements like "I represent the opinions of billions of people" comes across as an expression of either delusions of grandeur or of feelings of insecurity and inferiority on your part. In any case you're trying to make yourself sound bigger than you are. Kind of like Donald Trump actually.

I thought this was a political forum to discuss all viewpoints, and normally it is, but for some reason on this issue it is a complete echo chamber.  

Well, you haven't been banned from this forum yet, haven't you? Freedom of expression always goes both ways and that means you're not actually entitled to get only praise for your opinions from others, but instead other people have strictly speaking the right to tell you that your opinions are nonsense.

As for the "echo chamber" thing: It's not really true that everyone here holds the same opinion on everything. There's a majority opinion though and I think you managed to get the message across now that you don't like that majority opinion.

I would say that there are of course some political issues which are highly controversial and other political issues where large consensuses exist. The Ukraine war tends to be more of the latter. The fact that there is such a large consensus on something is not bad in itself but perhaps only goes to show that it happens to be one occasion where it is rather clear-cut what the morally sound position is to take. I mean when someone says "slavery is evil" you also wouldn't expect many people to say that "this place is becoming an echo chamber on the opposition to owning people as property, we need to hear both sides of the story".

China and India have clearly rejected the Western view and both look to continue business with Russia. As far as we can tell this is supported by the population of both countries. There's the 1.4 billion and 1.3 billion. As Red Velvet described, other large developing countries like South Africa and Brazil are publicly adopting parts of the alternative view like NATO provoking the war or American biological labs in Ukraine, and even US allies like Saudi Arabia and Israel have refused to endorse fully the Western view and/or are trying to evade sanctions. So there clearly is solid support in the world for the range of non-Western view points on the war. If I were optimistic I might even say it is close to 50-50 in terms of population. Yet in this thread all we hear is the Western viewpoint and I am called all sorts of things for presenting an alternative viewpoint, not even the Russian viewpoint mind you; I have never said that Ukraine is not a real country or that the place is full of Nazis. Debate on this issue should be similar to say a debate on the level of taxation or government regulation, not a one sided echo chamber.

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Chinese Ambassador to the U.S. Qin Gang on "Face the Nation"
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/qin-gang-chinese-ambassador-face-the-nation-03-20-2022/

AMB. GANG: Well, There's a disinformation about China providing military assistance to Russia. We reject that--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --You won't do so, Beijing will not?

AMB. GANG: What China is doing is send foods, medicine, sleeping bags and the baby formula--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --That's--

AMB. GANG: --not weapons and ammunition to any party and we are against a war, as I said, you know, we will do everything to dis-escalate the crisis.

China refuses military aid to Russia. Maybe people on this thread should stop framing this conflict on civilizational lines. And I would say, that when even Philippines foreign minister (who voted in favour of UNGA Res ES-11/1!) is saying that "The West is fighting to the last Ukrainian man, woman and child.", I suggest West has a severe problem with messaging. Because, like it or not, they do represent the majority or the global population.

However Ambassador Qin confirmed that we did not cut off our trade with Russia and thus are probably giving them nonlethal aid. I think the evidence is leaning towards my interpretation of the Xi/Biden call. So far (in 2 days, probably too early to call), I like how China responded, we stood up to American bullying, supported our ally, but by excluding military aid for now, we kept consistent with our message, and gave the Americans the opportunity to climb down and effectively cut off the dispute here, rather than humiliating them and forcing them into further escalation.

However the hawks on this thread probably now want sanctions on China for this and I'm sure there are hawks in Biden's administration who agree. We'll see how Biden proceeds.

Also, shame on you CBS, it's been how many years and you still can't figure out Chinese naming conventions and which name is the family name and which one is the given name?

Oh, Meet the Press thinks based on the Biden call with Xi, and an in person meeting of Blinken and the Chinese ambassador, that China will not be providing economic or military aid to Russia and is trying to distance itself from the civilian slaughter in Russia. Just the opinion of the panelists there of course. They could be wrong.

We're all trying to read tea leaves here. It's not easy to do. Also Chinese attitudes towards the US have changed quite a bit since Trump came into office (so, for that matter, have American attitudes towards China) and perhaps these panelists are drawing on their experience from before.

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Speaking of support for an alternative to the Western view on the war, here's Israeli PM Bennett's comments on the issue today:

On Monday, Israel sent an aid delegation to Ukraine to establish a field hospital. While at the airport to see the delegation off, Bennett gave a few remarks, saying Israel was "managing this unfortunate crisis with sensitivity, generosity and responsibility, while maintaining a balance between the various factors – and they are complex."

Hm... sounds similar to Chinese ambassador to the USA Qin Gang yesterday on CBS News?

AMB. QIN: China makes its observation and conclusion based independently- based on the merits of the matter itself. On the one hand, we uphold–

MARGARET BRENNAN: The United Nations Secretary General said Russia invaded–

AMB. QIN: we uphold– We uphold. On the one hand, China upholds the U.N. purposes and -- and the principles, including that- the respect for the national sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries, including Ukraine. On the other hand, we do see that there- there is a complexity in the history of the Ukraine issue. And we are–

To be fair, Israeli FM Yair Lapid did say that Israel will not become "route to bypass sanctions imposed on Russia by the United States and other Western countries.” So Israel's stance is a bit more pro-Western than China's. I guess all those years of unconditional support and billions (trillions?) of aid bought you something? LOL?

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Speaking of support for an alternative to the Western view on the war, here's Israeli PM Bennett's comments on the issue today:

On Monday, Israel sent an aid delegation to Ukraine to establish a field hospital. While at the airport to see the delegation off, Bennett gave a few remarks, saying Israel was "managing this unfortunate crisis with sensitivity, generosity and responsibility, while maintaining a balance between the various factors – and they are complex."

Hm... sounds similar to Chinese ambassador to the USA Qin Gang yesterday on CBS News?

AMB. QIN: China makes its observation and conclusion based independently- based on the merits of the matter itself. On the one hand, we uphold–

MARGARET BRENNAN: The United Nations Secretary General said Russia invaded–

AMB. QIN: we uphold– We uphold. On the one hand, China upholds the U.N. purposes and -- and the principles, including that- the respect for the national sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries, including Ukraine. On the other hand, we do see that there- there is a complexity in the history of the Ukraine issue. And we are–

To be fair, Israeli FM Yair Lapid did say that Israel will not become "route to bypass sanctions imposed on Russia by the United States and other Western countries.” So Israel's stance is a bit more pro-Western than China's. I guess all those years of unconditional support and billions (trillions?) of aid bought you something? LOL?

I've been calling them out for over a decade. You can thank the Ray Goldfields and Parrotguys of the world for trying to shut down debate at every turn by shouting "pogrom" and "blood libel" at the tamest criticism.

Israel is a terrible friend to America.

China doesn't have a mob of Russian troops on its borders, ready to give the Syrians the order to attack at the moment's notice. America helped to put Israel in that situation, and Israel has still managed to give far more per capita than the United States.

The smears from people like Kinzinger are genuinely disgusting, and seeing who the OP you're quoting is should give away just how bad-faith this whole line of conversation is.

Um.... what? China has a 4000 km border with Russia, and we have had our border disputes and wars in the past? I don't know how many troops Russia has our border but I'd guess it's on the order of tens or hundreds of thousands.

Why is it not a legitimate point of discussion when Israel refuses to follow the USA on what you claim is a clear moral issue of right vs wrong, freedom vs tyranny, etc? A strong ally, a liberal democracy, and their leader puts out a statement that is indistinguishable from one by the Chinese ambassador? Maybe this should be a big hint that many do not see the Ukraine-Russia issue as you portray, but instead as PM Bennett and Ambassador Qin put it, "complex"?

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My takeaway from all of this is the "the West" needs to avoid being too economically interdependent with nations of power that might become adversarial to the breaking point.  "The West" needs to be able to quickly press the go into backup mode button, and replace whatever goods and services are cut off with adequate substitutes. In other words, if need be "the West" needs to be able effectuate a quick and not unduly painful divorce. And "the West" will need to pay a rather expensive insurance premium to get there. Both military and economic preparedness needs to be in play. To cut to the chase, the above policy needs to be in place for both China and Russia. They can and will and probably are returning the favor.

The iron curtain is back - bigger and "better" than ever, or prudence dictates that it should be.
And yes, it sucks. It sucks a lot. One wishes one could break bread with authoritarians without the risk of getting poisoned, but not in this life.

I would say that from China's perspective the opposite is also true, China needs to reduce its dependence on the West and all Western institutions. Russia has learned this lesson harshly, and while China is better situated to deal with Western sanctions and to retaliate effectively, there's no question in China's current state they would hurt.

I think both sides will find ways to manage and get by, but there's no question that purposely short-circuiting the Law of Comparative Advantage will leave both sides poorer. Too bad the Americans demand a unipolar world and that its way of doing things is the only acceptable way, otherwise this could have been avoided. There is no intrinsic reason why China and the USA should hate each other.