Anti-Semitism in UK Labour megathread

[America Needs R'hllor]

I usually don't approve of Avi Gabbay, but this was a good move. When Corbyn is out and the anti-semites are purged, we can reestablish relations with UK Labour.

[America Needs R'hllor]

You can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. To deny this is calling all Jews who oppose Israel anti-Semites, which basically makes you Netanyahu (he called David Axelrod and Rahm Emanuel self hating Jews).

Take note I didn't call Corbyn an anti-semite. He's an enabler, but many in his party are blatantly anti-semitic.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Forgive me for wading into this ...

to the biggest scandal in the UK right now.

Not even close to being true. The Syria/Russia/Trump standoff has dominated the front pages and the TV headlines for the last four or five days. Brexit, specifically the still-unresolved(read: unresolvable) problem of the Irish border, has simmered in the background consistently. Budgetary debates over defense and NHS spending have captured more than a few days of attention, and more locally, in London at least, the supposed rise in knife crime has taken up most of the bandwidth. Like it or not, Corbyn and internal Labour party politics were the flavour of the week for about 10 days and have now largely subsided.

expelling people from a party for condemning the leader's anti-semitism.

Thanks for bolding that for me already

Don't read too much into these sorts of proclamations. Expelling people from the party is the bog standard significant-seeming demand that everyone makes when someone or some group within a British political party does something another person/group disagrees with. Brexiteer Tories wanted to kick out Remainer Tories after last year's Commons vote defeat. New Labour sorts used to call for the now-ascendant lefties to be kicked out. It's a rhetorical gesture. Like calling for a scalp.

people playing at being a human RSS feed then I don't know if even this thread is a great idea...

Well "Audrey" has already turned the UK gen thread into one, so...

I think that's so unfair, anti semitism upsets me a lot, my nanna was a Holocaust survivor, my boyfriend is a reform Jew,

I was sitting the other day with my boyfriends family, and we talked politics, most of them said they voted labour all their life,
my boyfriend mother said she voted labour even in last election with a heavy heart, she added most of the people she knew that attended her synagogue used to vote labour, but none of them even consider voting Labour again.
Labour has become a very toxic brand to large segment of the Jewish community.

It's why I feel passionate about this particular issue,

That's perfectly reasonable, obviously. The problem in question is that every other post in the U.K. thread is you posting three or so Hodge tweets in bold for some reason (after all, what's the purposing of bolding selected text if it doesn't serve to contrast with non-bolder text?) with an image attatched to each one that results in your insubstantial posting taking up way too much thread space.  

Normally, i only set the text bold in titles and sometimes tweets, but note taken,

It's reassuring to know your passion for this issue is heartfelt and genuine rather than partisan and opportunistic, which, regrettably, has been the inspiration for many of Corbyn's critics in this antisemitism row. However, you do your cause no good when your posts are unreadable montages, inexplicably bolded tweets-in-a-vacuum, and guido clickbait.

There's a serious discussion to be had about antisemitism, as well as racism, bigotry, and xenophobia more generally, in Britain. To name a few:

- Farage, Boris, and a hefty set of the Tory/UKIP folk praising Orban and Duda's governments as they employ antisemitic rhetoric and dogwhistling to install authoritarian regimes.

- Labour and the Tories actively enabling anti-immigrant sentiment for years because it was 'good politics', then quietly ignoring the rise in attacks on minority groups - including Jewish people.

- The right wing press (especially the DM and the Express) all but photocopying 1930s-era anti-Jewish propaganda when designing their anti-migrant agitprop.

- And, yes, Momentum and other organized lefty groups purposely eliding justified criticism of the Israeli government's handling of Palestinians with overt appeals to antisemitism.

It's a big problem. It goes well beyond Labour or Corbyn. And it's as ingrained into British politics as the not-unrelated nostalgia for the empire or Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' diatribe. I wish more people in the Labour Party would take it seriously - almost as much as I wish (most of) those attacking Corbyn for antisemitism would as well.

While I personally want to listen and partially subscribe to views of British people on this issue- just like it gets tiresome when trolls flood the Israeli discussion thread and attack Israel without having any knowledge on the issue, it can't be fun when the opposite happens in British threads- I do believe that, while some of your points about the British right are true, you kind of underestimate the problems with the British left. Supporting terror organizations is not "justified criticism", and the antisemitic dog-whistles in the rhetoric of Labour's radical left-wing parts is painfully obvious. However, we shouldn't attack everyone and make this a derailed discussion- Andrew, for example, is (like always) being clearly reasonable and balanced, he's not trying to shut down everyone.

[America Needs R'hllor]

We've got a little of this on the left in America with the bourgeoisie intellectual stereotype, but this stuff is so bad.

Corbyn would literally be the worst leader in the western world by far(he would make Trump and Trudeau look great).

Corbyn is terrible but I'm not sure he's Trump-bad since at least he's "high functioning". I don't like Trudeau either but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as either of them.

People should not be allowed to question if (individual) British Jews have loyalty to Israel above Britain? LOL

If you've got evidence that an individual Jew is secretly working for Mossad or something, go for it. But claiming Jews are part of a cabal  and not really loyal to whatever country they're in has been a staple of antisemitism going all the way back to the Romans. In general I'm not one to apply different rules to talking about different ethnic groups, but there are still situations where even I think the context clearly matters, like casually calling a black man a "boy" and other things like that.

What about someone like Sheldon Adelson saying he wishes he served in the Israeli military instead of the US, and he's one of the top donors to one of our major political parties? He even admits Israel is his number one concern.

So? This is not an excuse for saying Jews aren't loyal to their country. I'd also turn against my country if it suddenly nuked Greece, does it mean I'm not loyal? No, it's just a matter of priorities. It's not an excuse to use this antisemitic rhetoric. Jesus, this is why we need a country. We'd never be safe as a people without it.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Yeah, sorry, this is it. I'm no longer in the "Corbyn enables antisemitism but isn't an antisemite himsel" camp- it's now clear to anyone who's not intentionally blinding himself that Corbyn IS an antisemite.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Call me hysterical, but judging from the denial about modern Labour that some leftists display, I'm starting to see the answer to that eternal question of "why did people turn a blind eye".
Funny, by the way, that leftists use that holocause survivor (who claimed Israel did 9\11 btw) the exact same way the far-right used people like David Clarke.

[America Needs R'hllor]

He was there to remember those killed in the Isreal strike on the PLO in 1985. Non-Story.

God, there are literally pictures proving he was with this wreath at the graves of the terrorists, not at the graces of the Israeli strike victims. You sound exactly like a Trump supporter stubbornly claiming that his crowd size was the yugest ever despite the pictures.

[America Needs R'hllor]

So, #HodgeComparisons on Twitter... I'm glad I left the Labour Party.

Both main parties been polling over 80% of the vote since last election and i believe it will remain this way, it's a 2 horse race "Labour vs Conservatives",
If we don't vote Labour, the tories will win the next general election...

As much i dislike Corbyn, I don't he's fit to be prime minister, the way he's handling the anti Semitism row is deeply depressing and sad :/

But I dislike the tories more and what they're doing with the NHS, Universal Credit, Windrush, Fracking, Transportation and railway chaos, Brexit chaos, etc...
We must not lose sight, the tories don't deserve to win the next general election...

Well, it's ok to have priorities. For me, the antisemitism is the most important issue, and I'd support the Tories to stop Corbyn.

This is one of the most disgusting smear campaigns of all time. It may destroy Corbyn but eventually people just aren't going to care anymore. Seems people forget the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

If you've been paying attention at all, this is the story of "there are about a thousand wolves here we should panick". Because the examples for antisemitism in Labour and its leader are so numerous that it's pretty hard to follow at this point. Just read anything on this thread, it's so damning that calling it "A WITCH HUNT" is either blinding yourself because you don't want to see the truth about people of your ideology, or outright supporting the disgusting way Labour has been recently treating this issue. Either way, yet another proof that the Jews can never be calm when completely at the mercy of the other people. We just make the perfect boogeymen.

[America Needs R'hllor]

So, #HodgeComparisons on Twitter... I'm glad I left the Labour Party.

Both main parties been polling over 80% of the vote since last election and i believe it will remain this way, it's a 2 horse race "Labour vs Conservatives",
If we don't vote Labour, the tories will win the next general election...

As much i dislike Corbyn, I don't he's fit to be prime minister, the way he's handling the anti Semitism row is deeply depressing and sad :/

But I dislike the tories more and what they're doing with the NHS, Universal Credit, Windrush, Fracking, Transportation and railway chaos, Brexit chaos, etc...
We must not lose sight, the tories don't deserve to win the next general election...

Well, it's ok to have priorities. For me, the antisemitism is the most important issue, and I'd support the Tories to stop Corbyn.

I question my support for Labour all the time, if labour doesn't deal with anti Semitism by next election and the situation gets more dire I'll cast a "Blank Ballot"

I take Anti Semitism very seriously, it's extremely upsetting to me, for personal reasons...

I understand that and respect your choice As I said, it's ok to have different priorities as long as one understands and takes the problem seriously rather than willfully ignoring it. I don't believe that Labour is some evil anti-Jewish party right now, only that the trends are very worrying, so voting for it is legitimate.

[America Needs R'hllor]

So, #HodgeComparisons on Twitter... I'm glad I left the Labour Party.

Both main parties been polling over 80% of the vote since last election and i believe it will remain this way, it's a 2 horse race "Labour vs Conservatives",
If we don't vote Labour, the tories will win the next general election...

As much i dislike Corbyn, I don't he's fit to be prime minister, the way he's handling the anti Semitism row is deeply depressing and sad :/

But I dislike the tories more and what they're doing with the NHS, Universal Credit, Windrush, Fracking, Transportation and railway chaos, Brexit chaos, etc...
We must not lose sight, the tories don't deserve to win the next general election...

Well, it's ok to have priorities. For me, the antisemitism is the most important issue, and I'd support the Tories to stop Corbyn.

This is one of the most disgusting smear campaigns of all time. It may destroy Corbyn but eventually people just aren't going to care anymore. Seems people forget the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

If you've been paying attention at all, this is the story of "there are about a thousand wolves here we should panick". Because the examples for antisemitism in Labour and its leader are so numerous that it's pretty hard to follow at this point. Just read anything on this thread, it's so damning that calling it "A WITCH HUNT" is either blinding yourself because you don't want to see the truth about people of your ideology, or outright supporting the disgusting way Labour has been recently treating this issue. Either way, yet another proof that the Jews can never be calm when completely at the mercy of the other people. We just make the perfect boogeymen.

No, this is just people who don't like Corbyn crying wolf over and over again.

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g

You can say that as much as you want, but no one provided any rebuttal of substance to the dozens of reports in this thread. Each of these things, like the wreath-laying, the refusal to accept the recognized term for antisemitism, the praise for Jew-murdering terorrorists etc etc might not be enough alone to prove antisemitism alone, but all together, with the fact that Corbyn refused to apologize for all of them and with the hostility many Labour activists and even members displayed for Jews? This is just such an overwhelming, piling amount of evidence that ignoring it is blind. And no, showing Jews defending Labour holds as much water as far-right African American groups, leftists should know better than to use fig leaves to ignore accusations of racism because this is one of the most frequent strategies racists use. Jews can be as willfully blind as every other person for the sake of their ideology, so I'm not surprised that "Jewish Socialists" would defend Corbyn.

[America Needs R'hllor]

So, #HodgeComparisons on Twitter... I'm glad I left the Labour Party.

Both main parties been polling over 80% of the vote since last election and i believe it will remain this way, it's a 2 horse race "Labour vs Conservatives",
If we don't vote Labour, the tories will win the next general election...

As much i dislike Corbyn, I don't he's fit to be prime minister, the way he's handling the anti Semitism row is deeply depressing and sad :/

But I dislike the tories more and what they're doing with the NHS, Universal Credit, Windrush, Fracking, Transportation and railway chaos, Brexit chaos, etc...
We must not lose sight, the tories don't deserve to win the next general election...

Well, it's ok to have priorities. For me, the antisemitism is the most important issue, and I'd support the Tories to stop Corbyn.

This is one of the most disgusting smear campaigns of all time. It may destroy Corbyn but eventually people just aren't going to care anymore. Seems people forget the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

If you've been paying attention at all, this is the story of "there are about a thousand wolves here we should panick". Because the examples for antisemitism in Labour and its leader are so numerous that it's pretty hard to follow at this point. Just read anything on this thread, it's so damning that calling it "A WITCH HUNT" is either blinding yourself because you don't want to see the truth about people of your ideology, or outright supporting the disgusting way Labour has been recently treating this issue. Either way, yet another proof that the Jews can never be calm when completely at the mercy of the other people. We just make the perfect boogeymen.

No, this is just people who don't like Corbyn crying wolf over and over again.

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g

You can say that as much as you want, but no one provided any rebuttal of substance to the dozens of reports in this thread. Each of these things, like the wreath-laying, the refusal to accept the recognized term for antisemitism, the praise for Jew-murdering terorrorists etc etc might not be enough alone to prove antisemitism alone, but all together, with the fact that Corbyn refused to apologize for all of them and with the hostility many Labour activists and even members displayed for Jews? This is just such an overwhelming, piling amount of evidence that ignoring it is blind. And no, showing Jews defending Labour holds as much water as far-right African American groups, leftists should know better than to use fig leaves to ignore accusations of racism because this is one of the most frequent strategies racists use. Jews can be as willfully blind as every other person for the sake of their ideology, so I'm not surprised that "Jewish Socialists" would defend Corbyn.

This addresses the term of antisemitism.
https://forward.com/opinion/407456/why-corbyn-s-definition-of-anti-semitism-is-actually-what-jews-need/

Where did he praise Jew murdering terrorists?

The media has always been against Corbyn, so you really shouldn't go by how over the top the coverage is. Claiming that Corbyn is anti-semtitic just makes you look like a bandwagoner here.

He called Hamas and Hezbollah 'friends' and later regretted "using that phrase". Also this:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3674146/jeremy-corbyn-faces-fury-after-calling-banned-palestinian-terror-group-hamas-serious-and-hardworking/

Honestly, his comments are so numerous that ignoring it is hilarious. And that's without mentioning the rest of Labour. And c'mon, the moment you start blaming the media for everything you should know you're wrong. Someone who blames the media because they cover too many stories he doesn't like usually has a problem with reality. Will you start calling them "the fake news media" soon? What about "enemies of the people"? Sure, the media isn't nearly perfect but the evidence here is overwhelming, and they're also not pro-Israel at all. In fact, the media constantly peddles anti-Israeli lies and frames stories in an outrageous way, for example, writing that "a Palestinian was killed" in the headline when covering a terror attack by said Palestinian.

[America Needs R'hllor]

It doesn't matter how many insanely suicidal Jewish groups people post saying "Actually the Jews have it coming" or whatever twisted rationale it is today. They're irrelevant tokens. Might as well be posting Alan Keyes making the case that blacks commit most of the crimes so mass incarceration is okay.

I think we all know what Corbyn is at this point, but what's really been instrumental about this crisis is just how many people not just stand by him, but stand by his anti-semitic beliefs.

Thank God this world has Israel to keep it in check.

Are you always this disrespectful towards Holocaust survivors? Tokens? Really?

Are you referring to Hajo Meyer? The Hajo Meyer who spread the blood libel that Israel was equivalent to the Nazis and believed in 9/11 conspiracies? He was obviously a very sick man whose trauma turned him into a useful tool for those who wanted to begin the cycle anew.

Indeed. I won't attack him because he's just a misguided man and he went through a lot, but it doesn't make him right. Actually, the far-left cynically using his status as a holocaust survivor to argue he's right and to defend themselves from accusations is quite disgusting. I mean, Ray didn't even mention him, he was referring to the Socialist Jews group. So I wonder why he was brought up.

[America Needs R'hllor]

It doesn't matter how many insanely suicidal Jewish groups people post saying "Actually the Jews have it coming" or whatever twisted rationale it is today. They're irrelevant tokens. Might as well be posting Alan Keyes making the case that blacks commit most of the crimes so mass incarceration is okay.

I think we all know what Corbyn is at this point, but what's really been instrumental about this crisis is just how many people not just stand by him, but stand by his anti-semitic beliefs.

Thank God this world has Israel to keep it in check.

Are you always this disrespectful towards Holocaust survivors? Tokens? Really?

I thought you denied the Holocaust?

*Disgusting antisemitism*

Reported, this is repugnant. Also, it's funny that you use the "Israel didn't exist" argument considering Palestine didn't either.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Corbynists never fail to live down to even the most basic expectations of human decency.

You guys support countless wars and strikes all over the world resulting in the murder of countless civilians but sure 'human decency'.

Oof. Your antisemitism is showing. There are quite some people that I expected this from, but you weren't among them.

"You Guys" sounds bad, really bad now thinking about it. It was meant to be a sensless derailment and frustration against neoon/right-wing hypocricy.

Ftr, I understood what you meant and know full well you have nothing against Jews. The fact that you clarified just reinforces that, so you defintely have my respect.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Nothing to forgive you for, you were right.

You, on the other hand, are beyond hope.

Relevant again after the blatant anti-semitism above.

[America Needs R'hllor]

It really is depressing; the conflation between Israel/Palestine and antisemitism means that for vast swathes of Labour this issue has now become about trying to 'shut down free speech'. The drip drip nature of the stories, and the fact that that they generally require a bit of explaining meaning that there hasn't really been much of a big cut through- this has been going on for nearly two years now!

It gets rather repetitive to hear MP's keep saying 'this is awful, I stand in solidarity with the Jewish Community'. If MP's think that Corbyn is antisemitic, or that he is happy with antisemitism, that there really is no alternative other than to challenge him for the Leadership, or resign the Whip.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

I'm sick of hearing leftists who jump at the slightest of dog whistle targeted at African Americans or Muslims suddenly so deaf to vicious anti-Jewish dogwhistles. Zionism is Jewish Nationalism- if Corbyn hates them, he believes Jews have no right for self-determination. That's discriminatory against Jews. Furthermore, if I got a penny for every time a nazi like Duke or a leftist antisemite like Corbyn used the word "Zionist" as a dogwhistle I'd be the new (((George Soros))) or (((media elite))). Just look at this tweet:

https://twitter.com/NickGriffinBU/status/1032688288480591872?s=19

This is such a blatant dogwhistle that it's painful. Stop looking for reasons to excuse Corbyn, or Ilhan Omar and any of the rest of their ilk because of "conflating" Judaism and antisemitism. Would it be legitimate if someone asked to stop conflating African Americans and "drug dealers" when the latter are used as dogwhistles by the far-right in the U.S.?

[America Needs R'hllor]

I'm agreeing with the exact point you're making. I'm just repeating what I've seen many Labour members say.

As posters on here will know I've never been a Corbynite, and I've certainly never defend, or deflect from the antisemitism in Labour.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, then I'll keep my post up since I think it's a good point to the many posters who DO talk about conflating Zionism and Jews.

As I said before, I don't know Ilhan Omar, I thought she had a change of heart and I think everyone deserve another chance, I was wrong...

Don't worry; I'm not accusing you of anything. You're the last person I'd accuse of excusing antisemites.

Tangentially, I've noticed the rhetoric denouncing Corbyn over this incident has been decidedly more shrill than before.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

Case in point.

I don't think that shrillness is necessarily bad. As a member of a minority group, I think I absolutely have every right to panic when one of the two major political parties of an important ally and nuclear power gets very soft on antisemitism, to the point of barely-concealed dogwhistles of the sort that, previously, lead to the slaughter of said group.

[America Needs R'hllor]

The Zionist smear campaign, even if victorious at destroying Corbyn, will only increase anti-Israel sentiment in the UK left. This is what Netanyahu's bromance with Trump is also doing in the US.

Victim blaming + dog whistling yay

[America Needs R'hllor]

I do think May is a great deal more human than people give her credit for, she's just very awkward on camera.

I'd certainly consider her a lot more human than dead-behind-the-eyes Boris.

And she's definitely a much better person than the hate-mongering lier Labour is defending so religiously.