Anti-Semitism in UK Labour megathread

[cp]

You know what, I'm not even gonna argue here anymore. This thread is absolutely infested with antisemites of the worst kind. Even actual Nazis are less annoying and intellectually dishonest than some of the people who pop in here on the regular. Absolutely disgusting.

[Edit: removed snarky-seeming comment]

I'm sorry if I crossed a line, but I do not think I've been intellectually dishonest (I can't speak for everyone else, obviously). This is a serious issue and I try to argue my perspective respectfully and factually. If I've not succeeded in doing so then that is on me.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I'm agreeing with the exact point you're making. I'm just repeating what I've seen many Labour members say.

As posters on here will know I've never been a Corbynite, and I've certainly never defend, or deflect from the antisemitism in Labour.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, then I'll keep my post up since I think it's a good point to the many posters who DO talk about conflating Zionism and Jews.

As I said before, I don't know Ilhan Omar, I thought she had a change of heart and I think everyone deserve another chance, I was wrong...

Don't worry; I'm not accusing you of anything. You're the last person I'd accuse of excusing antisemites.

Tangentially, I've noticed the rhetoric denouncing Corbyn over this incident has been decidedly more shrill than before.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

Case in point.

I don't think that shrillness is necessarily bad. As a member of a minority group, I think I absolutely have every right to panic when one of the two major political parties of an important ally and nuclear power gets very soft on antisemitism, to the point of barely-concealed dogwhistles of the sort that, previously, lead to the slaughter of said group.

[cp]

Years ago I might have agreed about shrillness not being necessarily bad, or rather, ineffective, counterproductive, and distracting. But a decade of escalating shrillness by progressives in the US and the UK did sweet  all to move those countries in their direction, and were worse than useless in stopping Brexit and Trump. I don't deny that volume and agitation can be useful, but I am increasingly dubious about their effectiveness.

As to the softening on antisemitism leading to slaughter point, I think that mischaracterizes the nature and the extent of what's been going on in the Labour Party (and the UK more generally). Much of what has been attributed to Corbyn/Labour as antisemitism is legitimate criticism of Israel. That which isn't has been roundly denounced by most of the party, and the leadership has acted - slowly, ham fistedly, arrogantly, and insufficiently, to be sure, but they have acted.

[Silent Hunter]

It would be like Prince Harry's visit to Auschwitz after he was caught wearing a Nazi armband at a costume party.

It worked for Harry, ultimately. Everyone loves him now.

[EPG]

If you want to make excuses for him, excuses can be made for him. But he is one video away from being at the same level as Donald Trump; he's still at the dog whistle stage, where some of them are good people.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Tangentially, I've noticed the rhetoric denouncing Corbyn over this incident has been decidedly more shrill than before.

NO ONE IS CONFLATING.

Case in point.

Love the tone policing towards a literal Israeli when this debate is ultimately about whether it's cool for people to say Israel doesn't have a right to exist (hint: it isn't).

So hypocritical for Europeans to argue that Israel wouldn't have a right to exist in the first place, when they live comfortably in nation-states with quite a history themselves. And for Brits to argue that Israel is bad because it would be rooted in colonialism takes a special amount of historical illiteracy and arrogance, on quite a few levels. I would love to know Corbyn's opinion of the Irgun.

Love how you assumed I'm British based on an Atlas avatar.

This thread is getting super heated, but this comment did crack me up irl.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

He really shouldn't have made a comment like that, and probably should stop using the word zionist, but he was only talking about those who had protested a Palestinian speaker.

[cp]

He really shouldn't have made a comment like that, and probably should stop using the word zionist, but he was only talking about those who had protested a Palestinian speaker.

Coincidentally, that's exactly what he said in his 'defense':

"In a statement issued on Friday night, Corbyn said he had used the term Zionist “in the accurate political sense and not as a euphemism for Jewish people”.

He added: “I am now more careful with how I might use the term ‘Zionist’ because a once self-identifying political term has been increasingly hijacked by antisemites as code for Jews.”

Corbyn insisted he had “defended the Palestinian ambassador in the face of what I thought were deliberate misrepresentations by people for whom English was a first language, when it isn’t for the ambassador”.

Link

[All Along The Watchtower]

Anyway, my other hot take is that the Israel-Palestine conflict and more specifically, its course since 1967 has fundamentally confused the “Western” Left’s politics and driven many of its adherents to the point of madness. I’m sure this observation is irrelevant to the thread though, so apologies for posting it.

[Old Man Willow]

So, the Zionist position is support Israel or we'll smear you into oblivion? I suppose Noam Chomsky is also an anti-Semite?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

So, the Zionist position is support Israel or we'll smear you into oblivion? I suppose Noam Chomsky is also an anti-Semite?

It is remarkably easy to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't want to reach that bar.

Really sure you want to go to bat for the guy insisting Jews aren't proper citizens if they don't renounce Israel, who is currently being cheered by actual Nazis for speaking "Truth to Jewish power"?

[EPG]

So, the Zionist position is support Israel or we'll smear you into oblivion? I suppose Noam Chomsky is also an anti-Semite?

Look at yourself, this is how people whip themselves up into supporting Trump.

[Intell]

So, the Zionist position is support Israel or we'll smear you into oblivion? I suppose Noam Chomsky is also an anti-Semite?

It is remarkably easy to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't want to reach that bar.

Really sure you want to go to bat for the guy insisting Jews aren't proper citizens if they don't renounce Israel, who is currently being cheered by actual Nazis for speaking "Truth to Jewish power"?

If anyone said this about Islamists there would be no controversy whatsoever. Many people in the conservative right-wing do that on a daily basis. Yes, Corbyn's comments were wrong but it was used in reference to those that tried to shut down on the freedom of speech of a Palestinian Ambassador criticising Isreal.

Till, Noam Chomsky is a raving anti-Semite as he has the exact same opinions.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

So, the Zionist position is support Israel or we'll smear you into oblivion? I suppose Noam Chomsky is also an anti-Semite?

It is remarkably easy to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't want to reach that bar.

Really sure you want to go to bat for the guy insisting Jews aren't proper citizens if they don't renounce Israel, who is currently being cheered by actual Nazis for speaking "Truth to Jewish power"?

If anyone said this about Islamists there would be no controversy whatsoever. Many people in the conservative right-wing do that on a daily basis. Yes, Corbyn's comments were wrong but it was used in reference to those that tried to shut down on the freedom of speech of a Palestinian Ambassador criticising Isreal.

Till, Noam Chomsky is a raving anti-Semite as he has the exact same opinions.

And this would be seen as a reasonable defense if it wasn't for the hundreds of other incidents detailed in this thread.

The Noam Chomsky/assorted Jewish antizionists argument doesn't quite wash either, because Jewish antizionists can be safely assumed to not have nefarious plans for diaspora Jews. The latter cannot be safely assumed for the unaffiliated, as history has proven.

[cp]

So, the Zionist position is support Israel or we'll smear you into oblivion? I suppose Noam Chomsky is also an anti-Semite?

It is remarkably easy to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't want to reach that bar.

Really sure you want to go to bat for the guy insisting Jews aren't proper citizens if they don't renounce Israel, who is currently being cheered by actual Nazis for speaking "Truth to Jewish power"?

If anyone said this about Islamists there would be no controversy whatsoever. Many people in the conservative right-wing do that on a daily basis. Yes, Corbyn's comments were wrong but it was used in reference to those that tried to shut down on the freedom of speech of a Palestinian Ambassador criticising Isreal.

Till, Noam Chomsky is a raving anti-Semite as he has the exact same opinions.

And this would be seen as a reasonable defense if it wasn't for the hundreds of other incidents detailed in this thread.

The Noam Chomsky/assorted Jewish antizionists argument doesn't quite wash either, because Jewish antizionists can be safely assumed to not have nefarious plans for diaspora Jews. The latter cannot be safely assumed for the unaffiliated, as history has proven.

Firstly, the number of incidents implicating Corbyn in this thread, or anywhere else, is not in the hundreds. By the most generous estimate, the number of accusations of antisemitism in the Labour Party over the past two years is around 50, of which a handful are specifically about Corbyn. To be clear: that is 50 too many and Corbyn has not acted swiftly or vehemently enough to address them, but exaggerating claims in this manner only obfuscates.

Secondly, it is naive to assume that someone who is Jewish will prime face not have 'nefarious plans' while someone who is not Jewish must always be assumed to have the possibility of having such plans. Besides being needlessly tribalistic, it feeds the kind of conspiratorial mindset that already warps so much of the debate about Israel/Palestine and antisemitism in general.  

Finally, to Chairface, the 'Zionist position' is not what you claim it to be. Most people who identify as Zionists, I think, are quite reasonable and defend their arguments without resorting to smears. Some do not, and it is highly regrettable that they do.

[Silent Hunter]

So, the Zionist position is support Israel or we'll smear you into oblivion? I suppose Noam Chomsky is also an anti-Semite?

There is a difference between "Not support Israel" and "Wish for it to cease to exist as a Jewish state".

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7091355/former-kkk-head-david-duke-and-ex-bnp-leader-nick-griffin-back-jeremy-corbyns-amid-fresh-zionism-row/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/24/jeremy-corbyn-praised-nick-griffin-former-kkk-leaderafter-video/

So....David Duke and Nick Griffin are siding with Corbyn

[Intell]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7091355/former-kkk-head-david-duke-and-ex-bnp-leader-nick-griffin-back-jeremy-corbyns-amid-fresh-zionism-row/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/24/jeremy-corbyn-praised-nick-griffin-former-kkk-leaderafter-video/

So....David Duke and Nick Griffin are siding with Corbyn

They'll be put in the gulag when Corbyn gets into power.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

So, the Zionist position is support Israel or we'll smear you into oblivion? I suppose Noam Chomsky is also an anti-Semite?

There is a difference between "Not support Israel" and "Wish for it to cease to exist as a Jewish state".

True, I presume that Corbyn supports Israel's right to exist with its pre-1967 borders. His disagreements with Israel are about Gaza and the West Bank.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1033467298135322626

https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1033467367815299072

[Silent Hunter]

He's basically been a strong anti-Zionist in the past and one might be suspicious of any support for a two-state solution now.

That may come from a genuine anti-racist perspective, but unfortunately, it's a little ignorant of Jewish history - especially in the Middle East.

[cp]

He's basically been a strong anti-Zionist in the past and one might be suspicious of any support for a two-state solution now.

That may come from a genuine anti-racist perspective, but unfortunately, it's a little ignorant of Jewish history - especially in the Middle East.

I think that's a fair assessment. Corbyn's never expressed much nuance when it comes to Jewish history, despite having a formidable grasp of other historical dimensions of the Israel/Palestine debate. I can't think of any definitive statements he's made about what solution to the Israel/Palestine issue he would prefer, but it might be instructive to look at the Labour Party's official policy. Corbyn's been willing to let his beliefs take a back seat to the Party line more than once (the monarchy, Trident).

[Silent Hunter]

Frank Field resigns Labour whip.

[cp]

This should really be part of the UK General Discussion thread. Despite his protestations to the contrary, Field's resignation has little if anything to do with Corbyn's alleged antisemitism.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/859872/GROTESQUE-Anger-as-Corbyn-allied-Palestine-Labour-group-calls-for-Jewish-FINAL-SOLUTION


Absolutely outrageous