Anti-Semitism in UK Labour megathread

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I think it might be useful to have a thread for this, rather than cluttering UK Gen.

[Former President tack50]

Well,  question for the British posters, is this that big of a deal in the UK?

At least here I don't think Israel and anti semitism has ever been an issue in an election.

Do Brits generally care about that? Or is this just a scandal? (Basically asking for a TL;DR I guess )

[America Needs R'hllor]

I usually don't approve of Avi Gabbay, but this was a good move. When Corbyn is out and the anti-semites are purged, we can reestablish relations with UK Labour.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

You can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. To deny this is calling all Jews who oppose Israel anti-Semites, which basically makes you Netanyahu (he called David Axelrod and Rahm Emanuel self hating Jews).

[Horus]

You can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. To deny this is calling all Jews who oppose Israel anti-Semites, which basically makes you Netanyahu (he called David Axelrod and Rahm Emanuel self hating Jews).

[America Needs R'hllor]

You can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. To deny this is calling all Jews who oppose Israel anti-Semites, which basically makes you Netanyahu (he called David Axelrod and Rahm Emanuel self hating Jews).

Take note I didn't call Corbyn an anti-semite. He's an enabler, but many in his party are blatantly anti-semitic.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If this is just going to be people who are totally ignorant of the matter at hand screaming at each other (as has started already!) and people playing at being a human RSS feed then I don't know if even this thread is a great idea.

This is a serious issue - one connected to wider issues within both British society and the New Left influenced parts of the harder Left everywhere -  but this needs to be a bad faith free zone to the extent that is possible...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well,  question for the British posters, is this that big of a deal in the UK?

Yes and no. It is not a big issue for most people (it concerns the internal affairs of a political party and those of a very small minority group) but is now a major one for people active in left-wing politics and the divides over the issue are not those some people might expect.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. To deny this is calling all Jews who oppose Israel anti-Semites, which basically makes you Netanyahu (he called David Axelrod and Rahm Emanuel self hating Jews).

Posts like this are neither relevant nor helpful. Desist.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

You can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. To deny this is calling all Jews who oppose Israel anti-Semites, which basically makes you Netanyahu (he called David Axelrod and Rahm Emanuel self hating Jews).

Posts like this are neither relevant nor helpful. Desist.

It is absolutely relevant, but I will desist anyway.

[parochial boy]

people playing at being a human RSS feed then I don't know if even this thread is a great idea...

Well "Audrey" has already turned the UK gen thread into one, so...

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

people playing at being a human RSS feed then I don't know if even this thread is a great idea...

Well "Audrey" has already turned the UK gen thread into one, so...

I think that's so unfair, anti semitism upsets me a lot, my nanna was a Holocaust survivor, my boyfriend is a reform Jew,

I was sitting the other day with my boyfriends family, and we talked politics, most of them said they voted labour all their life,
my boyfriend mother said she voted labour even in last election with a heavy heart, she added most of the people she knew that attended her synagogue used to vote labour, but none of them even consider voting Labour again.
Labour has become a very toxic brand to large segment of the Jewish community.

It's why I feel passionate about this particular issue,

That's perfectly reasonable, obviously. The problem in question is that every other post in the U.K. thread is you posting three or so Hodge tweets in bold for some reason (after all, what's the purposing of bolding selected text if it doesn't serve to contrast with non-bolder text?) with an image attatched to each one that results in your insubstantial posting taking up way too much thread space. 

I think certain people talking about taking "scalps" from those who dare to speak out of turn when it comes to Dear Leader's anti-semitism are a much bigger problem in that thread than posting relevant events related to the biggest scandal in the UK right now.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

people playing at being a human RSS feed then I don't know if even this thread is a great idea...

Well "Audrey" has already turned the UK gen thread into one, so...

I think that's so unfair, anti semitism upsets me a lot, my nanna was a Holocaust survivor, my boyfriend is a reform Jew,

I was sitting the other day with my boyfriends family, and we talked politics, most of them said they voted labour all their life,
my boyfriend mother said she voted labour even in last election with a heavy heart, she added most of the people she knew that attended her synagogue used to vote labour, but none of them even consider voting Labour again.
Labour has become a very toxic brand to large segment of the Jewish community.

It's why I feel passionate about this particular issue,

That's perfectly reasonable, obviously. The problem in question is that every other post in the U.K. thread is you posting three or so Hodge tweets in bold for some reason (after all, what's the purposing of bolding selected text if it doesn't serve to contrast with non-bolder text?) with an image attatched to each one that results in your insubstantial posting taking up way too much thread space. 

I think certain people talking about taking "scalps" from those who dare to speak out of turn when it comes to Dear Leader's anti-semitism are a much bigger problem in that thread than posting relevant events related to the biggest scandal in the UK right now.

Scalp in a purely political context is pretty common and inoffensive verbiage, no? Just some examples:

- The Memo: Trump allies say he needs a GOP scalp

- Obama Scalps America's Self-Defense Capabilities

I do not implore violent imagery and actually detest gulag and guillotine (e.g.) jokes from my fellow leftists.

Yes, it's fairly common usage, that looks less benign when used in the context of talking about expelling people from a party for condemning the leader's anti-semitism.

[DavidB.]

It's very enlightening to see how some left-wing hyenas on this forum would love to purge anyone who dares to speak up about the deep-seated antisemitism within Labour. I sincerely hope similar-minded British antisemites voice this position publicly, and as much as possible. It will prevent a lot of British Jews from making the wrong choice in the next election.

Meanwhile, nothing but respect for Ray Goldfield, who continues to be the absolute voice of reason on this subject.

[cp]

Forgive me for wading into this ...

to the biggest scandal in the UK right now.

Not even close to being true. The Syria/Russia/Trump standoff has dominated the front pages and the TV headlines for the last four or five days. Brexit, specifically the still-unresolved(read: unresolvable) problem of the Irish border, has simmered in the background consistently. Budgetary debates over defense and NHS spending have captured more than a few days of attention, and more locally, in London at least, the supposed rise in knife crime has taken up most of the bandwidth. Like it or not, Corbyn and internal Labour party politics were the flavour of the week for about 10 days and have now largely subsided.

expelling people from a party for condemning the leader's anti-semitism.

Thanks for bolding that for me already

Don't read too much into these sorts of proclamations. Expelling people from the party is the bog standard significant-seeming demand that everyone makes when someone or some group within a British political party does something another person/group disagrees with. Brexiteer Tories wanted to kick out Remainer Tories after last year's Commons vote defeat. New Labour sorts used to call for the now-ascendant lefties to be kicked out. It's a rhetorical gesture. Like calling for a scalp.

people playing at being a human RSS feed then I don't know if even this thread is a great idea...

Well "Audrey" has already turned the UK gen thread into one, so...

I think that's so unfair, anti semitism upsets me a lot, my nanna was a Holocaust survivor, my boyfriend is a reform Jew,

I was sitting the other day with my boyfriends family, and we talked politics, most of them said they voted labour all their life,
my boyfriend mother said she voted labour even in last election with a heavy heart, she added most of the people she knew that attended her synagogue used to vote labour, but none of them even consider voting Labour again.
Labour has become a very toxic brand to large segment of the Jewish community.

It's why I feel passionate about this particular issue,

That's perfectly reasonable, obviously. The problem in question is that every other post in the U.K. thread is you posting three or so Hodge tweets in bold for some reason (after all, what's the purposing of bolding selected text if it doesn't serve to contrast with non-bolder text?) with an image attatched to each one that results in your insubstantial posting taking up way too much thread space.  

Normally, i only set the text bold in titles and sometimes tweets, but note taken,

It's reassuring to know your passion for this issue is heartfelt and genuine rather than partisan and opportunistic, which, regrettably, has been the inspiration for many of Corbyn's critics in this antisemitism row. However, you do your cause no good when your posts are unreadable montages, inexplicably bolded tweets-in-a-vacuum, and guido clickbait.

There's a serious discussion to be had about antisemitism, as well as racism, bigotry, and xenophobia more generally, in Britain. To name a few:

- Farage, Boris, and a hefty set of the Tory/UKIP folk praising Orban and Duda's governments as they employ antisemitic rhetoric and dogwhistling to install authoritarian regimes.

- Labour and the Tories actively enabling anti-immigrant sentiment for years because it was 'good politics', then quietly ignoring the rise in attacks on minority groups - including Jewish people.

- The right wing press (especially the DM and the Express) all but photocopying 1930s-era anti-Jewish propaganda when designing their anti-migrant agitprop.

- And, yes, Momentum and other organized lefty groups purposely eliding justified criticism of the Israeli government's handling of Palestinians with overt appeals to antisemitism.

It's a big problem. It goes well beyond Labour or Corbyn. And it's as ingrained into British politics as the not-unrelated nostalgia for the empire or Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' diatribe. I wish more people in the Labour Party would take it seriously - almost as much as I wish (most of) those attacking Corbyn for antisemitism would as well.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Forgive me for wading into this ...

to the biggest scandal in the UK right now.

Not even close to being true. The Syria/Russia/Trump standoff has dominated the front pages and the TV headlines for the last four or five days. Brexit, specifically the still-unresolved(read: unresolvable) problem of the Irish border, has simmered in the background consistently. Budgetary debates over defense and NHS spending have captured more than a few days of attention, and more locally, in London at least, the supposed rise in knife crime has taken up most of the bandwidth. Like it or not, Corbyn and internal Labour party politics were the flavour of the week for about 10 days and have now largely subsided.

expelling people from a party for condemning the leader's anti-semitism.

Thanks for bolding that for me already

Don't read too much into these sorts of proclamations. Expelling people from the party is the bog standard significant-seeming demand that everyone makes when someone or some group within a British political party does something another person/group disagrees with. Brexiteer Tories wanted to kick out Remainer Tories after last year's Commons vote defeat. New Labour sorts used to call for the now-ascendant lefties to be kicked out. It's a rhetorical gesture. Like calling for a scalp.

people playing at being a human RSS feed then I don't know if even this thread is a great idea...

Well "Audrey" has already turned the UK gen thread into one, so...

I think that's so unfair, anti semitism upsets me a lot, my nanna was a Holocaust survivor, my boyfriend is a reform Jew,

I was sitting the other day with my boyfriends family, and we talked politics, most of them said they voted labour all their life,
my boyfriend mother said she voted labour even in last election with a heavy heart, she added most of the people she knew that attended her synagogue used to vote labour, but none of them even consider voting Labour again.
Labour has become a very toxic brand to large segment of the Jewish community.

It's why I feel passionate about this particular issue,

That's perfectly reasonable, obviously. The problem in question is that every other post in the U.K. thread is you posting three or so Hodge tweets in bold for some reason (after all, what's the purposing of bolding selected text if it doesn't serve to contrast with non-bolder text?) with an image attatched to each one that results in your insubstantial posting taking up way too much thread space.  

Normally, i only set the text bold in titles and sometimes tweets, but note taken,

It's reassuring to know your passion for this issue is heartfelt and genuine rather than partisan and opportunistic, which, regrettably, has been the inspiration for many of Corbyn's critics in this antisemitism row. However, you do your cause no good when your posts are unreadable montages, inexplicably bolded tweets-in-a-vacuum, and guido clickbait.

There's a serious discussion to be had about antisemitism, as well as racism, bigotry, and xenophobia more generally, in Britain. To name a few:

- Farage, Boris, and a hefty set of the Tory/UKIP folk praising Orban and Duda's governments as they employ antisemitic rhetoric and dogwhistling to install authoritarian regimes.

- Labour and the Tories actively enabling anti-immigrant sentiment for years because it was 'good politics', then quietly ignoring the rise in attacks on minority groups - including Jewish people.

- The right wing press (especially the DM and the Express) all but photocopying 1930s-era anti-Jewish propaganda when designing their anti-migrant agitprop.

- And, yes, Momentum and other organized lefty groups purposely eliding justified criticism of the Israeli government's handling of Palestinians with overt appeals to antisemitism.

It's a big problem. It goes well beyond Labour or Corbyn. And it's as ingrained into British politics as the not-unrelated nostalgia for the empire or Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' diatribe. I wish more people in the Labour Party would take it seriously - almost as much as I wish (most of) those attacking Corbyn for antisemitism would as well.

While I personally want to listen and partially subscribe to views of British people on this issue- just like it gets tiresome when trolls flood the Israeli discussion thread and attack Israel without having any knowledge on the issue, it can't be fun when the opposite happens in British threads- I do believe that, while some of your points about the British right are true, you kind of underestimate the problems with the British left. Supporting terror organizations is not "justified criticism", and the antisemitic dog-whistles in the rhetoric of Labour's radical left-wing parts is painfully obvious. However, we shouldn't attack everyone and make this a derailed discussion- Andrew, for example, is (like always) being clearly reasonable and balanced, he's not trying to shut down everyone.

[cp]

While I personally want to listen and partially subscribe to views of British people on this issue- just like it gets tiresome when trolls flood the Israeli discussion thread and attack Israel without having any knowledge on the issue, it can't be fun when the opposite happens in British threads- I do believe that, while some of your points about the British right are true, you kind of underestimate the problems with the British left. Supporting terror organizations is not "justified criticism", and the antisemitic dog-whistles in the rhetoric of Labour's radical left-wing parts is painfully obvious. However, we shouldn't attack everyone and make this a derailed discussion- Andrew, for example, is (like always) being clearly reasonable and balanced, he's not trying to shut down everyone.

I suppose that's a matter of perspective. I don't think I underestimate those problems. But, then, of course I wouldn't

As I see it, there's two separate but parallel aspects to this debate. One has to do with the institutional and ideological characteristics of the Labour Party, the other with a broader set of political issues relating, but not limited, to Israel, terrorism, and imperialism.

On the former matter, I wholeheartedly agree that there are antisemitic attitudes among some Labour Party members, as well as some left leaning commentators/outlets, and that, for political expediency's sake, the toleration of these attitudes is often treated as if it's a dirty little secret rather than a serious problem. That said, the problems with racism and, yes, antisemitism in the Conservative Party (and UKIP, obvs) and its ideological brethren are just as deep. Put another way, Labour and British leftwing politics are a symptom, not a cause, of antisemitism/racism/bigotry in British politics and society.

In fairness to you, I will admit I lose patience with the argument that there is something specifically wrong with the Labour Party or 'the left' on antisemitism. Not because there aren't valid criticisms to be made about institutional racism, but because I think it's mostly a tactic to score political points that leaves the deeper, wider, more serious societal problem conveniently unexamined.

On the latter issue, at the best of times it's difficult to express 'justifiable' criticism of Israeli treatment of Palestinians, or for that matter 'justifiable' support for Palestinians, without tacitly aligning oneself with utterly reprehensible actors and attitudes. Even calling for peace talks can be seen as implicit endorsement of people or groups who have committed acts of political violence (non-state sponsored or otherwise).

To the extent this issue is relevant in the UK and to the Labour Party, it is that Corbyn's the first leader of either major party to take a more ambivalent stance regarding Israeli and Palestinian complicity in perpetuating political violence in the region.* This has, in turn, emboldened radical anti-imperialist lefties in the Labour Party (of which there are many), and outright antisemites (of which there are few) to speak out more vehemently than they have previously. Regrettably, it can be difficult to tell which is which, not least because opponents of the Labour Party and/or fanatical supporters of right-wing Israeli policies find it useful to conflate the two.

Ultimately, I think Corbyn and the Labour leadership are much more moderate about Israel than they are portrayed, even among their supporters. Their rhetoric and policies fit comfortably into the mold of social democratic anti-militarists (Mohandas Gandhi, Helmut Schmidt, Willi Brandt, Pierre Trudeau). Their management of antisemitic rhetoric in the Labour Party has been middling at best, but I think that's more a comment on their managerial deficiencies than their ideological leanings.


*There is a parallel to be drawn between his approach to Israel/Palestine and his approach in the 80s and 90s to the nationalists/unionists in Northern Ireland, but that would take a whole new thread to explore!

[cp]

While I personally want to listen and partially subscribe to views of British people on this issue- just like it gets tiresome when trolls flood the Israeli discussion thread and attack Israel without having any knowledge on the issue, it can't be fun when the opposite happens in British threads- I do believe that, while some of your points about the British right are true, you kind of underestimate the problems with the British left. Supporting terror organizations is not "justified criticism", and the antisemitic dog-whistles in the rhetoric of Labour's radical left-wing parts is painfully obvious. However, we shouldn't attack everyone and make this a derailed discussion- Andrew, for example, is (like always) being clearly reasonable and balanced, he's not trying to shut down everyone.

For the record, you have my eternal sympathy for that. There's no worse thread on Atlas for that kind of drive-by opinionating.

[parochial boy]

Great posts CP, I would agree totally with regards to the fact that while the revelations depth of anti-semitism in the Labour party have been disturbing, and need to be rooted out; there has undeniably been an element of political expediency driving the whole story. Case in point being the reactions of the Daily Mail, and certain non-left MPs (Angela Smith comes to mind) to the whole Jewdas storm in a teacup, which were oddly anti-semitic themselves.

As for Corbyn himself, I actually think David Baddiel and Jonathan Friedland's articles were pretty decent. Baddiel may have hit the nail on the head in that a lot of Corbyn's ideology essentially separates the world into "victims" and "oppressors", Which is where you can find him speaking passionately about, say, the Battle of Cable Street, where Jews were the "victims" at the same time as indulging some very unpleasant people over things like Israel/Palestine, where Jews are seen as the "oppressors" (not commenting on whether that is true or not, it is just the perception that someone like Corbyn would have).

Obviously that speaks to a simplistic view of the world, if nothing else, and Corbyn having not been in the spotlight before, he has not been challenged on it like this before - which you would hope starts to change now.

Also, in that respect, I think it is worth pointing out that Corbyn's popularity has always been largely driven by his opposition to austerity/support for nationalisation and that sort of thing, rather than his foreign policy views or whatever. But, a key part of his appeal was, not so much his specific opinions, as much as the perception of him as being someone who sticks to his principles. That was a perception that to a large degree emerged out of his campaigns against western intervention and the like, which, while rather marginal issues in themselves, did help establish his credentials.

Now that we have a situation where that history is creating issues as a result of it leading to an unfortunate place (and it says something in itself that this has caused far more handwringing on the left than the IRA pieces that were coming out a year ago did), that "man of principles" image suddenly becomes a lot more ambiguous.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Corbyn would literally be the worst leader in the western world by far(he would make Trump and Trudeau look great).


- He wants to nationalize so many industries

- He hates capitalism in general

- He enables anti-semitism

- He is anti-American

- He would be weak on terrorism

- He probably is a SJW as well

[DavidB.]

Great speeches by Ruth Smeeth and Luciana Berger on this subject.

[Horus]

Jewish Labour MP left in tears at launch of anti-Semitism report

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/76781/jewish-labour-mp-left-tears-launch-anti-semitism

Corbyn had no actions to go with his words

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-43889017/corbyn-had-no-actions-to-go-with-his-words

Now sharing two year old articles to satisfy your daily anti-Corbyn mania?

[Horus]

Jewish Labour MP left in tears at launch of anti-Semitism report

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/76781/jewish-labour-mp-left-tears-launch-anti-semitism

Corbyn had no actions to go with his words

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-43889017/corbyn-had-no-actions-to-go-with-his-words

Now sharing two year old articles to satisfy your daily anti-Corbyn mania?

I actually voted for Corbyn in the First leadership election, I thought all those anti-semitic allegations were nothing but smears.
Yes the first link is from 2016, the second from last night.

Sure, Jan.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Blair left a much wider legacy than just Iraq...and besides Iraq, and in fact including it, that legacy was a good one.
He remains the most electorally successful Labour leader ever.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Blair left a much wider legacy than just Iraq...and besides Iraq, and in fact including it, that legacy was a good one.
He remains the most electorally successful Labour leader ever.

His legacy is actually tainting the reputation of the Right factions for more than a decade after he left. The Blair ministry did good things (and some bad things) but the man in the centre was a charlatan.