Anti-Semitism in UK Labour megathread

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Right-wing crazies decided that Abram Leon is an anti-semite.

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https://www.standuptoracism.org.uk/press-release-far-right-thugs-attack-tuc-backed-socialist-bookshop/

[Silent Hunter]

Anti-semitism is going to be mainly from the right and some SJWs who hate all whites. What the left has more of than the right is criticism of Israel. Actual anti-semitism shouldn't be tolerated, but people need to stop conflating criticism of Israel and anti-semitism. If Mertez was in power, I think you'd see a lot less criticism of Israel.

Jesus Christ

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt...

It's also one in Sudan... which I believe doesn"t recognise Israel.

You don't seem to get "this country shouldn't exist" with critics of any other nation to quite the same level.

[dead0man]

It's amazing how horribly they've handled this.  It's like Trump (ya know, racist, stupid, totally ignorant of how economies work, up it's own ass, giant ego, etc), but as an organization.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

In case anyone forgot, this is not new, it's not ambiguous, and it's not about Israel.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11837454/Jeremy-Corbyn-campaigned-for-release-of-Embassy-bombers.html

[DavidB.]

Interesting how, judging by the posts quoted in this thread that I initially couldn't see, half of the people posting in this thread (and all of those excusing AS) are on my ignore list and have been there for a long time - since before the Labour AS discussion. I wonder how they ended up on my ignore list and what they have in common. Ah well, I suppose it must be that they care a lot about the NHS.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Posted this on another forum, decided to add it here as well:

It's a bit unfortunate in some respects that the IHRA definitions have become central to this mess, because it opens things up to bad faith barrack-room lawyering. The point isn't to impose a strict and inflexible code For All Time and to suggest unpersoning anyone who could be argued to break it if you squint, but to provide a framework through which effective and prompt action can be taken. Campaigners on this issue often prefer - at least when this is possible - for action to be educational rather than punitive, as they typically regard antisemitism as being at heart a form of malicious ignorance, one that can be countered by education.

One of the problems with antisemitism (one of the reasons why it is an unusual and unusually pernicious form of racism: most other kinds are pretty clear cut even to the most casual of observers) is that antisemites have always been very good at obfuscation and distraction, much of which turns swiftly into victim blaming: antisemitism, even in its mildest forms, tends to operate according to a very nasty form of circular logic. A detailed list of potential antisemitic arguments and tropes is thus essential: this is the point of the IHRA definitions. These definitions can, of course, be quite easily augmented and contextualised without watering them down in the slightest. This is what should have been done in Labour's case: it wouldn't have been hard and it wouldn't have been controversial - especially if it had been paired with something else Labour desperately needs, namely a transparent and comparatively independent disciplinary process.

Three further comments:

1. The present firestorm around Corbyn was triggered by an online post that had nothing to do with Israel (i.e. the mural). Berger's alarmed complaints were actually picked up pretty late by the media. Even some of the more damaging episodes from Corbyn's past that have recently emerged were unearthed not by journalists, but a left-wing anti-Corbyn academic. Of course some in the media are exploiting this for political ends, but that's how politics works: you aim at the weak spots of your opponents. Liberal/left attacks on (for instance) Trump's conduct political aspect are a case in point.
2. Even Jews philosophically opposed to Zionism will generally be a little unnerved at aggressive criticism of 'Israel' spoken or written in a certain tone and utilising certain tropes and arguments. Particularly when it comes out of nowhere, especially when it's clear aimed 'at' them. I'm a little surprised that this needs pointing out.
3. Antisemitic attitudes remain quite widespread in British society and are in no way restricted to the Left, of course. To pick just a few examples: The Daily Telegraph ran an antisemitic headline recently, Private Eye continues to publish antisemitic content and cartoons and Nigel Farage now regularly makes overtly and openly antisemitic comments. There has also been a growth of a certain sort of strange 'racial' conception of Muslims in recent years that often tips over into pretty disturbing territory. All of this is serious and needs dealing with (I mean if you are a good Civic Liberal who wishes for constructive political discourse, that is - I guess if you aren't you probably won't care), but it will not do to bring this up as a means of defence of distraction - doing so is not just cynical but stupid as it works to discredit all criticism of racism and retards any concerted attempt to do anything about any of these problems.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's amazing how horribly they've handled this.

Two aspects to that - two aspects because 'the Party' and 'the Leadership' are distinct.

a) organisationally the Labour Party is a complete mess with a byzantine and basically jerry-built internal structure and disciplinary process. Its rule book is a joke (might struggle to hold up in court if ever seriously challenged, so contradictory are certain sections) and interpretations of it are often brazenly factional.

b) there is a circle of advisors around Corbyn with hard-to-far left backgrounds who are motivated mostly by personal vendettas and who have very strange and cranky political views. Milne is the best known, but it's not just Milne. Other people in the Labour Left (including supposedly pretty major players like McDonnell and Lansman) pretty clearly find the influence of these people extremely depressing, and you can understand why.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Proceedings against Hodge dropped.

[Silent Hunter]

There has also been a growth of a certain sort of strange 'racial' conception of Muslims in recent years that often tips over into pretty disturbing territory.

While there is the concept of a single Muslim people, the ummah as it's known, in that faith, it must be said that Muslims are a very diverse bunch. After all, the most populous Muslim majority country is Indonesia.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

https://twitter.com/joe_oliver/status/1026536369412366338
The best/worst part is that this rings true...

[dead0man]

ooops

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"I don't hate Jews, I just love the people that murder them."

[Blair]

Iirc this is rather old news that came out last year

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I believe it was, but some of the photos are new and put the lie to his claims that he wasn't there to honor them.

[dead0man]

"yeah, but this racist liar has good economic plans economic plans I agree with, so I don't care"

[America Needs R'hllor]

Call me hysterical, but judging from the denial about modern Labour that some leftists display, I'm starting to see the answer to that eternal question of "why did people turn a blind eye".
Funny, by the way, that leftists use that holocause survivor (who claimed Israel did 9\11 btw) the exact same way the far-right used people like David Clarke.

[Zaybay]

Looking at the top 10 twitter searches in recent time, interestingly enough, this is not one of them.

Whats even more interesting is that one of the top results was Benjamin Netanyahu, and it wasnt in support of him.
https://trends24.in/united-kingdom/

[rc18]

Looking at the top 10 twitter searches in recent time, interestingly enough, this is not one of them.

Whats even more interesting is that one of the top results was Benjamin Netanyahu, and it wasnt in support of him.
https://trends24.in/united-kingdom/

And the relevance of twitter is?

[Zaybay]

Looking at the top 10 twitter searches in recent time, interestingly enough, this is not one of them.

Whats even more interesting is that one of the top results was Benjamin Netanyahu, and it wasnt in support of him.
https://trends24.in/united-kingdom/

And the relevance?

I dunno, its interesting to see what makes it to twitter and what doesnt. It can be seen as a gauge for how large a story becomes, at least, thats how I use it. Its also kind of cool, you know?

[rc18]

Looking at the top 10 twitter searches in recent time, interestingly enough, this is not one of them.

Whats even more interesting is that one of the top results was Benjamin Netanyahu, and it wasnt in support of him.
https://trends24.in/united-kingdom/

And the relevance?

I dunno, its interesting to see what makes it to twitter and what doesnt. It can be seen as a gauge for how large a story becomes, at least, thats how I use it. Its also kind of cool, you know?

What does it matter how large a story is on twitter?  Does that make a difference to the content?

[Zaybay]

Looking at the top 10 twitter searches in recent time, interestingly enough, this is not one of them.

Whats even more interesting is that one of the top results was Benjamin Netanyahu, and it wasnt in support of him.
https://trends24.in/united-kingdom/

And the relevance?

I dunno, its interesting to see what makes it to twitter and what doesnt. It can be seen as a gauge for how large a story becomes, at least, thats how I use it. Its also kind of cool, you know?

What does it matter how large a story is?  Does that make a difference to the content?

Its just a gauge to see if a story is being talked about, spread, that kind of stuff. I just thought it was interesting, I mean no harm.

[rc18]

Looking at the top 10 twitter searches in recent time, interestingly enough, this is not one of them.

Whats even more interesting is that one of the top results was Benjamin Netanyahu, and it wasnt in support of him.
https://trends24.in/united-kingdom/

And the relevance?

I dunno, its interesting to see what makes it to twitter and what doesnt. It can be seen as a gauge for how large a story becomes, at least, thats how I use it. Its also kind of cool, you know?

What does it matter how large a story is?  Does that make a difference to the content?

Its just a gauge to see if a story is being talked about, spread, that kind of stuff. I just thought it was interesting, dont take it so personally.

Well you should probably include other media which don't have such a skewed userbase then.

[Zaybay]

Looking at the top 10 twitter searches in recent time, interestingly enough, this is not one of them.

Whats even more interesting is that one of the top results was Benjamin Netanyahu, and it wasnt in support of him.
https://trends24.in/united-kingdom/

And the relevance?

I dunno, its interesting to see what makes it to twitter and what doesnt. It can be seen as a gauge for how large a story becomes, at least, thats how I use it. Its also kind of cool, you know?

What does it matter how large a story is?  Does that make a difference to the content?

Its just a gauge to see if a story is being talked about, spread, that kind of stuff. I just thought it was interesting, dont take it so personally.

Well you should probably include other media which don't have such a skewed userbase then.

skewed? Its twitter. I mean, I guess it has a lot of young people, but thats not really that skewed.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

There's definitely a lot of people on Twitter defending Corbyn over his past support for the coldblooded murder and torture of Jews and his ongoing support for their marginalization in British life.

And every single one of them is exposing themselves as a morally depraved human being.

[Silent Hunter]

Corbyn's gone from the one thing that a politician fears more than being hated; being mocked.

[Intell]

He was there to remember those killed  in the Isreal strike on the PLO in 1985. Non-Story.

It seems weird that there's nothing wrong with supporting the illegal war in Iraq and countless other wars responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands. There's nothing wrong with conservatives meeting with Steve Banon and far-right parties across Europe. There's nothing wrong with supporting the indiscriminate murder of Yemeni People by May and conservative party co.  There's nothing wrong with supporting Israel war crimes in Gaza, and cheering on Netanyahu and the Israeli Right as they pass the racist nation-state law. There's nothing wrong with having a homophobic, anti-catholic, terrorist DUP as part of your coalition but if you offer a challenge to the neoliberalism and wars the right-wing press and establishment attacks you like crazy. Fycking Hypocrites.