NY: Convicted Felon Donald Trump!

[mjba257]

Is there a single court in the country where the party with the burden of persuasion doesn't get the last word? I've never heard of it being done the other way around

They way it's supposed to work because the prosecution has the burden of proof, they go first with closing arguments. The defense isn't even required to give a closing. But they go second so they know what to respond to and what points need to be refuted. The prosecution then has the option to give a rebuttal if they chose. It is NOT supposed to be the defense gives their closing first without knowing what the prosecution is going to say. New York has it backwards and this is absolutely something that should be appealed to SCOTUS.

[mjba257]

If holding accountable a former president for his crimes is going to tear a country apart then this country isn't worth saving.

Easy to say that when you’re from a mess of a country like Greece where corrupt officials rarelt get held accountable and you don’t have as much to lose. We have a 250 year old democracy on the line.

Appeasing would be terrorists is probably not a good idea. There are other problems with your argument as well, but I'm going to bed.

Amazing how willing you are to apply that logic to the U.S., but not to Israel.

Lmfao. Many of us here are from corrupt countries abroad, therefore we frankly couldn't give a damn about the fake tears being spewing out from butthurt U.S. conservatives. And why is that may you ask? Because at least a semblance of accountability for the actions of whatever politicians do is possible here and not so much as back in our home countries

Yes, in India politicians get arrested all the time and that has not been good for India .

What's "not good for India" is that it has so many politicians who commit crimes in the first place, not that it holds those politicians accountable for their actions.

You can pick almost figure in public life and find something they did in their past that you could make a flimsy case out of. I forget who said it, but the quote is "Show me the person, I'll show you the crime". All you need is a biased judge and a venue with a jury pool so heavily tainted in one direction, you can get whatever you want, damn the constitution. The rubicon has been passed so now is open game on anyone in public life. Anything they've ever done, no matter how miniscule or trivial is fair game. Statute of limitations be damned.

Seriously, if you really wanted to take down Trump, why not go after him over Epstein? There you have a serious crime and substantial evidence to at least warrant an investigation. And no statute of limitations. Are you afraid pursuing that case may implicate somebody you like?

[mjba257]

Jesus Christ. Why all the simping for two-tiered justice systems here? Seriously. The endless bootlicking for criminal politicians has become insufferable here. You hunch-backed weirdos all write this crap knowing full f#cking well that Joe Blow would be getting his ass rammed in prison right now if he committed one-tenth of the degree of crimes the likes of Nixon or Bush or Trump have committed.

There has to be a reason for it. Is it the same reason multiple users worship warmongers like Scoop Jackson or LBJ on here? Are we so ingrained in the doings of the political establishment that we do their propaganda work for them, in the hopes that one day we, too, might become like them or enjoy the same prestige? Do you want to sit with daddy in the big chair one day?

Is that all you’ve got? Do you seriously have nothing better to do than come and white knight for (legally and/or morally compromised) scumbag politicians? Are you the head of a nursery? Is that what you do? You are a child. You are a child. You are a child.

This isn’t about a two tiered justice system. This is about keeping the damn country together. Half of my posts on this forum are about how much I don’t like Trump and how I believe he’s a danger to democracy. I’ve made it very clear where I stand on him. My issue is that instead of being vulnerable and reaching out to people on the right, people on the left have a “better than you” attitude and instead chose to harass and name-call them, further emboldening people on the right to adopt a victim mentality (of which Trump is the ultimate representation). And people with that mentality will eventually use that mentality to justify physical violence. Does the rise in militia membership, constant social media dogwhistles, and the rescripting of the January 6 attack as a “patriotic demonstration,” not signal to you that what you’ve been doing for the past few years hasn’t been working?

Times of crisis require leaders to show courage and to do things that are unpopular. We’re approaching one of those crises again. Biden is the President- the most powerful person in the country, and he has to do something to demonstrate to all Americans, not just those on the left, that his commitment to keeping the country together is genuine. If he doesn’t, people on the right will turn to Trump, and the lord only knows what kind of ugly things Trump is willing to unleash on our country.

.... How is pardoning someone who committed 34 acts of criminal conduct and letting them off the hook, setting the precedent that presidents can do whatever they want, and be okay even if they are found guilty by a jury, "keeping the damn country together?"

I'm sorry but these takes are absolutely asinine. You don't keep the country together by letting criminals off the hook. You keep the country together by following the rule of law and showing that actions have consequences, just like they would for you and me.

Anyone that is pushing this argument is being incredibly disingenuous and deep down likes Trump. Sorry, but that's the truth.

George W. Bush literally ran a torture program and we never held him accountable. Barack Obama killed an American citizen with a drone strike without any due process, we never held him accountable. Bill Clinton has been credibly accused of numerous sex crimes, we never held him accountable. Reagan and Bush Sr. illegally sold weapons to Iran to fund a proxy war in Nicaragua without Congressional approval - never held accountable. Heck, Trump is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Yeminis due to funding Saudi Arabia's illegal war there. Yet nobody cares. But hush money to a porn star? THAT is when we start "holding power accountable"? No, it's a stupid joke and a waste of time. New York should be embarrassed with itself, perhaps that's why it's population is decreasing. The hypocrisy is enraging and you are a partisan hack. Period

None of this has anything to do with the other - so because a DA didn't press charges against any of those people for those specific situations we should just ... ignore when the next person does a crime? That literally makes no sense and you know it. These arguments are becoming so absolutely flimsy.

Once again - why should New York be embarassed? A JURY FOUND HIM GUILTY - clearly they didn't find it embarassing! It's wild that you're calling people partisan hacks for pointing out that a jury of 12 average New Yorkers found Trump guilty for a crime that he committed. That's embarrasing.

Florida, which is a far better state than New York, would never have brought this charge. Neither would Texas or any red state. Most purple states wouldn't have either.

It's not about the state, but the county where the offense occurred. And funny you didn't mention decidedly purple georgia, or the fact that charges were brought in federal court in red leaning Florida. The only way charges wouldn't have been brought is if you had local hackish Republicans like you who can't criticize, let alone oppose Trump and his malfeasance.

Thanks for playing, please don't try again.

If I had jurisdiction, I'd totally go after Trump over Epstein. Without hesitation. Solid evidence, clear allegations of egregious misconduct. Of course, some pretty prominent Democrats and celebrities were also involved with Epstein, so they could be implicated, so maybe that's why some are so hesitant to go after him for that.

[mjba257]

Damn, I was on a trip for 2 weeks and missed the conviction news when it happened (Yellowstone and Grand Tetons was worth it though)

I’m not surprised he got convicted of all counts. The E Jean Carroll verdict was a  foreshadowing that he was going to get his ass handed to him by a jury in NYC

From what I’ve seen anecdotally, Repubs seem to be standing with him, so I’m not sure what the political ramifications will be. Such a shame Repubs didn’t just nominate Haley and get away from this trouble though

[/b]

There's still a chance

[mjba257]

So this is going to be an unpopular opinion. But even though I agree with the verdict and I believe Trump is an absolutely terrible person, I think it would be in the best interest of Biden to pressure Hochul into pardoning Trump. It would be a real opportunity for Biden express that he’s a president for all Americans- and it completely strips Trump of his martyrdom argument. We’re in a completely unprecedented moment in American history right now and it is important that Biden take control of the narrative. If he doesn’t, Trump will, and we can only speculate about the violence that he’s willing to unleash on the country in response this conviction.

Biden would get zero credit for that. Are you honestly telling me one single braindead Trump cultist is going to be like "hey he pardoned Trump, what a great guy!".

Trump is a crybaby and a whiny little b****. He's going to have a victimhood narrative no matter what because all he does is complain like a child on a road trip, which is apparently what around 45% of the country thinks a "real man" is in 2024.

If they want to unleash violence be my guest, do another J6 right before the election and see what happens.

This isn’t about a two tiered justice system. This is about keeping the damn country together. Half of my posts on this forum are about how much I don’t like Trump and how I believe he’s a danger to democracy. I’ve made it very clear where I stand on him. My issue is that instead of being vulnerable and reaching out to people on the right, people on the left have a “better than you” attitude and instead chose to harass and name-call them, further emboldening people on the right to adopt a victim mentality (of which Trump is the ultimate representation). And people with that mentality will eventually use that mentality to justify physical violence. Does the rise in militia membership, constant social media dogwhistles, and the rescripting of the January 6 attack as a “patriotic demonstration,” not signal to you that what you’ve been doing for the past few years hasn’t been working?

Times of crisis require leaders to show courage and to do things that are unpopular. We’re approaching one of those crises again. Biden is the President- the most powerful person in the country, and he has to do something to demonstrate to all Americans, not just those on the left, that his commitment to keeping the country together is genuine. If he doesn’t, people on the right will turn to Trump, and the lord only knows what kind of ugly things Trump is willing to unleash on our country.

If Trump killed someone or raped a child would you be against convicting him to "keep the country together"? If not then that's not the issue, whether he committed a crime is. I don't recall any of the wingnuts chanting "lock her up" being worried about keeping the country together.

Ultimately "it would hurt my feelings if you convicted me" isn't a legitimate defense in criminal law.

Those are actual crimes with a clear victim. I'd have no problem with anybody, regardless of whom, being prosecuted for that. In fact, there is good evidence that Trump may very well be guilty OF EXACTLY THAT, yet Democrats aren't calling for any investigations into Trump-Epstein connection, even though that actually would politically destroy him.

A bookkeeping error is not an any way a crime worth prosecuting, let alone against a former president and current candidate. Let me ask you, would you be okay with some right wing prosecutor from Scranton, PA pressed charges against Biden because years ago he got a parking ticket and never paid it off in full. Would that be okay with you? Even if said offense happened 40 years ago?

[mjba257]

If Trump were being prosecuted for let's say, molesting an underage girl on Epstein Island, you would not see the kind of backlash we are seeing. People are rightfully angry at this verdict because anyone who isn't a democrat partisan can see how obviously political the whole charade is. If you are going to break a 250-year precedent of never prosecuting former presidents, it better be over something pretty damn serious. This trash out of Manhattan does not even come close to meeting that standard.

And I mention the Epstein scandal because there is sufficient evidence that Trump did in fact sexually abuse an underage girl being trafficked by that POS, at least enough to warrant an investigation. And this actually would be a case that would legitimately destroy Trump politically. Everyone agrees child molestation is a horrific crime worthy of punishment, you have a clear victim who was physically harmed, and solid evidence and credible witnesses (unlike say E Jean Carroll). I do wonder why Dems have never tried going after Trump over that?

     What struck me is that not only virtually everyone I know who supports Trump thinks this case was a nothingburger and blatant partisan lawfare (which I expected), but even quite a few people who are on the fence about him have expressed the same. I'm not sure why they didn't pursue charges on something that would elicit a stronger disgust reaction from the voting public, other than maybe they were unsure if they could put a case together quickly enough.

An Epstein-related prosecution would implicate many people in positions of power, including many Democrats, which is why there hasn't been a push from the McResist left to go after Trump for that. Even though, as you point out, such a conviction on that egregious a crime would absolutely destroy Trump. A good chunk of his MAGA cultists would abandon him over that.

[mjba257]

If Trump were being prosecuted for let's say, molesting an underage girl on Epstein Island, you would not see the kind of backlash we are seeing. People are rightfully angry at this verdict because anyone who isn't a democrat partisan can see how obviously political the whole charade is. If you are going to break a 250-year precedent of never prosecuting former presidents, it better be over something pretty damn serious. This trash out of Manhattan does not even come close to meeting that standard.

And I mention the Epstein scandal because there is sufficient evidence that Trump did in fact sexually abuse an underage girl being trafficked by that POS, at least enough to warrant an investigation. And this actually would be a case that would legitimately destroy Trump politically. Everyone agrees child molestation is a horrific crime worthy of punishment, you have a clear victim who was physically harmed, and solid evidence and credible witnesses (unlike say E Jean Carroll). I do wonder why Dems have never tried going after Trump over that?

     What struck me is that not only virtually everyone I know who supports Trump thinks this case was a nothingburger and blatant partisan lawfare (which I expected), but even quite a few people who are on the fence about him have expressed the same. I'm not sure why they didn't pursue charges on something that would elicit a stronger disgust reaction from the voting public, other than maybe they were unsure if they could put a case together quickly enough.

An Epstein-related prosecution would implicate many people in positions of power, including many Democrats, which is why there hasn't been a push from the McResist left to go after Trump for that. Even though, as you point out, such a conviction on that egregious a crime would absolutely destroy Trump. A good chunk of his MAGA cultists would abandon him over that.

That's still wishful thinking to me. They'd claim it was all a conspiracy, as usual. "Bill Clinton made friends with Trump so he and Epstein could make him look bad for his inevitable run for President. He didn't actually do anything!"

A certain sect of MAGA will never be swayed, but you have a lot of traditional, pre-Trump conservatives like myself who saw this case as nothing more than a political hit job and I have endlessly criticized it and the players involved. But a conviction on CHILD MOLESTATION would absolutely be a deal breaker, especially with a South Florida jury, which is obviously less tainted than a Manhattan one. In fact, the credible evidence that currently exists connecting Trump to Epstein is the main reason I cannot in good faith support him. Damn any policy agreements, that is my line in the sand.

[mjba257]

Love Blago.

Does a corrupt Illinois Democrat really play well with the Fox crowd? If so, they’re even dumber than I thought.

Classic Fox news democrat syndrome. Their viewers adore the parade of so-called Democrats they put on camera to decry and pearl clutch over how much the Democratic party has betrayed them blah blah blah blah blah

What scandal-ridden and disgraced R washup would be the equivalent of this? If Mark Sanford were a CNN or MSNBC commentator, maybe? Say what you will about the MSNBC Republican as a species, it's almost never the "disgraced and chased out of office in scandal" types who went that route.

EDIT: Forget Sanford, the answer would be if Bob McDonnell were a cable news frequent flier. He's a pretty good match for Blago.

Except there's no reason for Biden to pardon McDonnell because his conviction was already thrown out by the SCOTUS. But in an alternate universe where that didn't happen and Biden pardoned him and he became such a dedicated Biden hack in response, I guess I could see that.

Trump's pardon of Blago was weird, he had no loyalty or connection to Trump, and though it made him loyal after the fact that doesn't help because no one at this point cares who he endorses. I suspect it was mostly just because it became known that Blago privately had a lot of contempt for Obama, so Trump basically rewarded him for doing something dishonest in regards to Obama's Senate seat largely out of the lack of respect he had for Obama in the first place.

Blago was a contestant on the Celebrity Apprentice. That's how he knew Trump. Plus, his sentence was quite excessive given the nature of the charges, hence why it was commuted, not pardoned. He still has a 'felon' label though