Obama on Small-Town Pennsylvania...

[Torie]

I am just not going to engage is this rhetorical bridgework thingy with you snowguy716. Play with someone else on that. But here is a little thought for you. Perhaps where the US has a comparative advantage is less in manufacturing widgets these days, and more in inventing and offering intangible goods, like services, and designs, and trade secret thingies, and stuff subject to copyright, and the like. But hey, Boeing still sells planes, and highly complex stuff that you can touch and feel is one area where the US is still quite competitive, although of course much of the value added even there, is in the intangible value added in those hunks of aluminum.

[opebo]

Your claim about the ephemeral products is extremely dubious, Torie, but even if it were accurate, it means that the only way for the US to receive the benefits of 'trade' in these 'ideas' is to forcibly impose itself and its 'legal system' upon other countries.  Before just a half-decade ago most Asian countries ignored such nonsense as 'copy-write' or 'patent'.  Some still due, humanely, in the area of drugs.

But aside from this point about the source of profit (force), it is worth noting that the 'information economy' about which you fantasize, even if it were real, would only provide incomes to a tiny elite.  Thus government action will be needed to redistribute, otherwise the vast majority will suffer (a condition they should not accept, politically, though perversely they always have).

[Person Man]

I am just not going to engage is this rhetorical bridgework thingy with you snowguy716. Play with someone else on that. But here is a little thought for you. Perhaps where the US has a comparative advantage is less in manufacturing widgets these days, and more in inventing and offering intangible goods, like services, and designs, and trade secret thingies, and stuff subject to copyright, and the like. But hey, Boeing still sells planes, and highly complex stuff that you can tough and feel is one area where the US is still quite competitive, although of course much of the value added even there, is in the intangible value added in those hunks of aluminum.

...but do we want that comparable advantage? Or, if we do, how can we it into a comparable advantage that involves jobs that people want?

That's the goal, Torie. The goal is to make the global trade system bring jobs that people want to our shores.

Your claim about the ephemeral products is extremely dubious, Torie, but even if it were accurate, it means that the only way for the US to receive the benefits of 'trade' in these 'ideas' is to forcibly impose itself and its 'legal system' upon other countries.  Before just a half-decade ago most Asian countries ignored such nonsense as 'copy-write' or 'patent'.  Some still due, humanely, in the area of drugs.

But aside from this point about the source of profit (force), it is worth noting that the 'information economy' about which you fantasize, even if it were real, would only provide incomes to a tiny elite.  Thus government action will be needed to redistribute, otherwise the vast majority will suffer (a condition they should not accept, politically, though perversely they always have).

The one thing that I agree with you in this article is that we have forgotten what American exceptionalism really is. It's not to believe that you are excellent, but to actually be excellent.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I am just not going to engage is this rhetorical bridgework thingy with you snowguy716. Play with someone else on that. But here is a little thought for you. Perhaps where the US has a comparative advantage is less in manufacturing widgets these days, and more in inventing and offering intangible goods, like services, and designs, and trade secret thingies, and stuff subject to copyright, and the like. But hey, Boeing still sells planes, and highly complex stuff that you can tough and feel is one area where the US is still quite competitive, although of course much of the value added even there, is in the intangible value added in those hunks of aluminum.

I'm no idiot.  You've told me nothing I don't know here.  It's just that I have a concern for social justice and human rights.  If we're going to be global customers, we should have the right to demand that our salespeople treat their employees respectfully.

Beyond that, you can't ignore the fact that real income has fallen for Americans over the past 30 years.  If you look at the amount of gold a year of earned income can buy, it peaked in 1973 in the U.S. and has slid particularly fast since 2001.  Sure, the price of gold has more than doubled.. but so has oil, rice, and wheat, so gold is still a good measure of our personal worth.. these are tangible things that *DO* matter to our economy.  We still have to eat, get around, and put shelter over our heads.

30 years of a declining quality of life has been covered up by credit and the fast growth of workforce participation.  Dad used to work and mom stayed home and you could still have a 3 bedroom ranch in teh 'burbs and a vacation every year.  Now both mom and dad work and they're losing their 3 bedroom ranch in the 'burbs, vacation is out of the question.. but they have a cell phone and a computer!!!

People like me see this as a fundamental problem.  Quality of life and standards of living should be rising, not stagnating and increasingly based on two-income households and credit cards.

Our population has grown, our productivity has grown.. we should be seeing single-income households holding their own and even affording a little more than they could 30 years ago, but that is not the case.

And all you've done is say "well, we need to focus on technology and innovation" and continue to expand the policies that have clearly failed us, instead of standing back and looking at the big picture and adjusting policy that benefits everyone, not just the rich here at home and the poor abroad.

I mean, look at tech support.. this is a new field that exploded during the '90s.. and then collapsed because it has been largely exported to India.  Here is a field that promised to bring home the gold, so people went back to school, got trained in tech support.. and then watched as their cushy new jobs where they could show up in pajamas and throw a football around on break fly out of hte country to India.

How cna we keep up with innovation and technology if we're going to come up with it and then outsource it within a period of 5 years to someone that can learn it way faster than we developed it and pay 1/10th the salary?

You aren't answering these questions, but just offering platitudes.

How do we maintain our economy?  The economy will falter if you demand that it shift completely every few years and force millions to up and move to where the jobs can be found only to do it again a few years later.. it's like building a mansion on a muddy sand pit.

[Torie]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Folks want to be factory rats to engage in repetitive tasks to stamp out widgets?  Who knew?

Ya, I suppose they do, if it pays 70 bucks on hour with benefits. Wish on. The days of US oligopoly in widget production, aka autos, are long gone. They are not coming back - ever. Thus, there is no profit surplus for unions to move into the workers' paychecks, and away from shareholder dividend checks. That is why unions are largely dead (they don't fatten paychecks anymore because they is nothing to convert, so the value added is gone), except for public employee unions, where the monopoly is legal, and thus the sky is the limit, at least until voters say enough already, and vote Pubbie.

I guess the CPI thing is for others to muse about. So repeat on and on, ad nauseum, that life sucks ever more, economically, for the average American. One wants to believe, so one just will.

One other thing. Land was once cheaper (fewer folks), and medical services were mostly about giving folks as aspirin, or stiching them up, so well it was just so affordable. It was a win, win, because folks died earlier, and thus were not hanging around a long time to draw their social security benefits.Cars were cheap, but they polluted, and needed lots of maintenance, and tended to kill folks more. And long distance calls were so expensive, that one just didn't do them. Ya, and mom got to stay home, because well, it took a lot of hours to just get the basic chores done. It was all just so wonderful really - a veritiable shining city on a hill, and now it is all gone!  Sob.

[opebo]

...30 years of a declining quality of life has been covered up by credit and the fast growth of workforce participation.  

...our productivity has grown..

Snowguy, what has happened is the State has redistributed all that income that workers used to get directly to the top 0.5%.  'Trade' and 'economics' and 'business' and 'markets' and all that other nonsense are actually just aspects of political action, not in any way 'independent forces'.  What has happened is the top 0.5% has fullty regained political control, and simply taken back everything from the workers accept for what they got  before FDR - the minimum necessary to survive.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Exactly. Those industrial jobs are not coming back! No President, I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat, could've stopped the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. If they had, we'd have much higher prices and less economic growth today.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Exactly. Those industrial jobs are not coming back! No President, I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat, could've stopped the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. If they had, we'd have much higher prices and less economic growth today.

Is that why Europe is in such a huge recession with a lower quality of life and a failing currency?  Because they let their way of life move to China and tried to borrow their way out of it?

Americans *LOVE* to moan about Europe's "slow" economic growth, but don't mention that Europe's population is flat or declining, so even 1% on a population declining by 0.5% is better than 2% growth on a population increasing by 1%.

[opebo]

Exactly. Those industrial jobs are not coming back! No President, I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat, could've stopped the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. If they had, we'd have much higher prices and less economic growth today.

Higher prices would be irrelevant to workers making the union wage (they're currently making nothing or $8 an hour).  As for 'economic growth', this is irrelevant to workers - just a wall street sort of made up figure.   Lastly speaking of 'stopping' outsourcing is silly - the State made it happen, no one else.  And they did it for the top 0.5%.

[Gustaf]

What's funny about this is that the "problem" of not having enough low-paying jobs and too many high-paying ones will solve itself once China and India become sufficiently industrialized. By that time Americans will get all those precious jobs with long working hours in mines or cleaning toilets or whatever. Enjoy the ride of being on the better end of the global economy while it lasts...

[Torie]

What's funny about this is that the "problem" of not having enough low-paying jobs and too many high-paying ones will solve itself once China and India become sufficiently industrialized. By that time Americans will get all those precious jobs with long working hours in mines or cleaning toilets or whatever. Enjoy the ride of being on the better end of the global economy while it lasts...

We might end up there (long after I am dead, but whatever), if the US educational system except for the elite continues to suck, and the US does not continue to poach the best and brightest to make up for some of it. However, Europe has the same problem, much of it. I have read that educational standards in Germany have taken a dump. That place will be hurting big time in due course. It may well be that in the end, the Asians will indeed rule, if they maintain their discipline and work ethic, and respect for education, as a generalization. They certainly seem to have a comparative advantage (that term again) in California these days, as American transplants. Their ranks are dominating our elite educational institutions.

Hey, what is with the Finns? They start school at 7 years of age, and max out on test scores as number one or two in the world, in just everything, verbal, science, math, you name it.

[zombones]

So political pollsters don't work weekends, huh?  Damn.

[Gustaf]

What's funny about this is that the "problem" of not having enough low-paying jobs and too many high-paying ones will solve itself once China and India become sufficiently industrialized. By that time Americans will get all those precious jobs with long working hours in mines or cleaning toilets or whatever. Enjoy the ride of being on the better end of the global economy while it lasts...

We might end up there (long after I am dead, but whatever), if the US educational system except for the elite continues to suck, and the US does not continue to poach the best and brightest to make up for some of it. However, Europe has the same problem, much of it. I have read that educational standards in Germany have taken a dump. That place will be hurting big time in due course. It may well be that in the end, the Asians will indeed rule, if they maintain their discipline and work ethic, and respect for education, as a generalization. They certainly seem to have a comparative advantage (that term again) in California these days, as American transplants. Their ranks are dominating our elite educational institutions.

Hey, what is with the Finns? They start school at 7 years of age, and max out on test scores as number one or two in the world, in just everything, verbal, science, math, you name it.

The Finnish basically still adhere to the traditional Scandinavian school system which is highly egalitarian but with strong discipline and high demands on all pupils througout elementary education (instead of dividing pupils up into elite groups and low-performance groups). In Sweden the egalitarian aspect is still around but not the rest. Germany does extremely early dividing into different education forms which I think helps explains why they do so badly.

[Person Man]

Exactly. Those industrial jobs are not coming back! No President, I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat, could've stopped the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. If they had, we'd have much higher prices and less economic growth today.

What does growth mean if not everyone sees it, then again, the jobs that are going away aren't going bach. Then again, we just need to find a new industry that the rest of the world depends on. Americans need to think of a new industry and invest greatly in it.

What's funny about this is that the "problem" of not having enough low-paying jobs and too many high-paying ones will solve itself once China and India become sufficiently industrialized. By that time Americans will get all those precious jobs with long working hours in mines or cleaning toilets or whatever. Enjoy the ride of being on the better end of the global economy while it lasts...

We might end up there (long after I am dead, but whatever), if the US educational system except for the elite continues to suck, and the US does not continue to poach the best and brightest to make up for some of it. However, Europe has the same problem, much of it. I have read that educational standards in Germany have taken a dump. That place will be hurting big time in due course. It may well be that in the end, the Asians will indeed rule, if they maintain their discipline and work ethic, and respect for education, as a generalization. They certainly seem to have a comparative advantage (that term again) in California these days, as American transplants. Their ranks are dominating our elite educational institutions.

Hey, what is with the Finns? They start school at 7 years of age, and max out on test scores as number one or two in the world, in just everything, verbal, science, math, you name it.

The Finnish basically still adhere to the traditional Scandinavian school system which is highly egalitarian but with strong discipline and high demands on all pupils througout elementary education (instead of dividing pupils up into elite groups and low-performance groups). In Sweden the egalitarian aspect is still around but not the rest. Germany does extremely early dividing into different education forms which I think helps explains why they do so badly.

That' could be an interesting idea. Perhaps we should abolish the entire "gifted" program.

What's funny about this is that the "problem" of not having enough low-paying jobs and too many high-paying ones will solve itself once China and India become sufficiently industrialized. By that time Americans will get all those precious jobs with long working hours in mines or cleaning toilets or whatever. Enjoy the ride of being on the better end of the global economy while it lasts...

One thing that I saw in College and fell in love with was Japanese leap-frog economics. This will allow for America to retain its superpower status while allowing the 3rd world to industrialize. The idea is that you develop new industries in the core world and ship off the older jobs to the peripheral world.

[Torie]

...30 years of a declining quality of life has been covered up by credit and the fast growth of workforce participation. 

...our productivity has grown..

Snowguy, what has happened is the State has redistributed all that income that workers used to get directly to the top 0.5%.  'Trade' and 'economics' and 'business' and 'markets' and all that other nonsense are actually just aspects of political action, not in any way 'independent forces'.  What has happened is the top 0.5% has fullty regained political control, and simply taken back everything from the workers accept for what they got  before FDR - the minimum necessary to survive.

You could confiscate everything the top .5% earns and give it to the masses, and per capita, it would not have much impact. Do the math.

[Ban my account ffs!]

...30 years of a declining quality of life has been covered up by credit and the fast growth of workforce participation. 

...our productivity has grown..

Snowguy, what has happened is the State has redistributed all that income that workers used to get directly to the top 0.5%.  'Trade' and 'economics' and 'business' and 'markets' and all that other nonsense are actually just aspects of political action, not in any way 'independent forces'.  What has happened is the top 0.5% has fullty regained political control, and simply taken back everything from the workers accept for what they got  before FDR - the minimum necessary to survive.

You could confiscate everything the top .5% earns and give it to the masses, and per capita, it would not have much impact. Do the math.

So that's your basis for giving the top .5% even more?

You can take everything the bottom 50% have and give it to the top 5% and their quality of life wouldn't go up much but half the population would have nothing.

[Torie]

It was just a little sobering mathematical exercise for you, nothing more, nothing less, about what's in it for the impecunious from leveling.  We can chat about supply side (a concept where I not a Club for Growth purist by the way), some other time.

[Lunar]

We can't continue to buy products from countries with no respect for the environment or human rights.. of course they can produce stuff cheaper than we can!  They can dump their sludge in the river and make 8 year olds do it... how are we supposed to compete with that?

It's not about competing on individual markets.  Even if a country produces at 1/1000th of the level of efficiency and cost effectiveness as our country, we will STILL be able to mutually benefit from trade.

Look:
United States can make 500 superconductors or 500 shirts in a day/month/whatever
China can produce 1 superconductor or 100 shirts

US is much more efficient at both items.  But China has a comparative advantage at making shirts while the US has a comparative advantage at making superconductors.  We both make what we're good at and trade for the other, resulting in a maximization of our happiness!  Even if the US only wants shirts and China only wants superconductors, they would still make what they're good at.

Fair trade is important regarding some things, but it's not as big of a deal as you depict it.  For example, I wouldn't want African countries to enter a vicious cycle to see who can lower workplace safety the most in certain markets (mining) but that isn't really what you're talking about..

[J. J.]

So basically the 48% of Americans who voted for Kerry aren't "average"? Average to whom? You?
And the 51% who voted for Bush are average.

OK, it's all so clear to me now.

My mom and dad, who served in Vietnam,  aren't average americans. Neither is my Grandpa who was a marine in Korea. Tell me then, what are they?

By definition, the 48% are not and neither is you father, since the average American did not serve in Viet Nam.

[12th Doctor]

So basically the 48% of Americans who voted for Kerry aren't "average"? Average to whom? You?
And the 51% who voted for Bush are average.

OK, it's all so clear to me now.

My mom and dad, who served in Vietnam,  aren't average americans. Neither is my Grandpa who was a marine in Korea. Tell me then, what are they?

By definition, the 48% are not and neither is you father, since the average American did not serve in Viet Nam.

The average American didn't die in Vietnam either, but you wouldn't know it by the way the Left talks about it.

[J. J.]

Obama seems to be talking about an economy as it was 35 years ago.  That is called being out of touch.

[Person Man]

Obama seems to be talking about an economy as it was 35 years ago.  That is called being out of touch.

Or maybe you are trying to defend your own credibility as it is the generals and you are trying to solidify your case for Micky C.

[Ban my account ffs!]

We can't continue to buy products from countries with no respect for the environment or human rights.. of course they can produce stuff cheaper than we can!  They can dump their sludge in the river and make 8 year olds do it... how are we supposed to compete with that?

It's not about competing on individual markets.  Even if a country produces at 1/1000th of the level of efficiency and cost effectiveness as our country, we will STILL be able to mutually benefit from trade.

Look:
United States can make 500 superconductors or 500 shirts in a day/month/whatever
China can produce 1 superconductor or 100 shirts

US is much more efficient at both items.  But China has a comparative advantage at making shirts while the US has a comparative advantage at making superconductors.  We both make what we're good at and trade for the other, resulting in a maximization of our happiness!  Even if the US only wants shirts and China only wants superconductors, they would still make what they're good at.

Fair trade is important regarding some things, but it's not as big of a deal as you depict it.  For example, I wouldn't want African countries to enter a vicious cycle to see who can lower workplace safety the most in certain markets (mining) but that isn't really what you're talking about..

That's how it works in an idealistic world.. straight out of textbook economics 101.

But what has happened in the U.S. is that through neglecting our education, health care, and infrastructure systems, we are losing our comparative advantage at producing superconductors while China is becoming better and better at producing T-Shirts AND superconductors because it can do so much more cheaply.. so, China gains more than the U.S. and the U.S. actually starts to slide backwards..

And then voters compound the problem by getting all in a tizzy and voting to further cut education, health care, and infrastructure funding because their incomes aren't rising and they blame it all on taxes.

Yes, it's a vicious cycle... if only the free market worked like it's supposed to!

[Sam Spade]

Nearly 450 posts in about 50 hours.  Beautiful.  Next on the spotlight - PA-13... 

[Democratic Hawk]

Obama is a bigger elitist than Kerry ever was during this campaign. I am really getting tired of this crap. I am tempted just to support Obama so he can get in the White House and screw up and watch all the blame go to former President Bush. We let the Democrats take control of Congress and they have been abysmal.

What makes you so sure a President Obama would screw up?

Dave